Your browser does not support script

Pagan Perspectives

Weekly Question

Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

Views: [32,767]
Responses: [2,666]

The Rules
Note: The opinions posted on the Pagan Perspective pages are those of individuals and are not neccessarily shared or endorsed by the Witches' Voice inc.

For Further
Visit The

WitchVox List
of 242
'Net Sites:

Chat Boards
Email Lists
IRC Channels

Past Questions
112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

111. So, You’re Dead. Now What? - [59]

110. What’s Your Favorite Element? - [119]

109. The Broom Closet Revisited: What’s Your Current Occupancy Rate? - [129]

108. Do You Speak Pagan Geek? - [38]

107. Would You Be A Good ‘Reality Show’ Contestant? - [49]

106. What Is Your Inner Animal? - [127]

105. Are Pagans TOO Individualistic? - [56]

104. Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq? - [258]

103. What Are You Reading? - [95]

102. Do Interfaith Conferences/ Discussions Work? - [29]

101. Have You Made Any Extra Security Preparations? - [85]

100. Why Are You A Pagan or Heathen? - [142]

99. What Moon Phase Are You In? - [70]

98. Would You Live In A Haunted House? - [166]

97. What Natural Objects Are On Your Altar? - [103]

96. If You Were Granted Three Wishes... - [179]

95. How Do You Feel About War? - [153]

94. Who Would Make Your Pagan/Heathen Who’s Who List? - [91]

93. Should Pagans Apply For Federal Funds? - [56]

92. What Do You See in 2003? - [47]

90. Which Christmas Ghost Would You Like To Be? - [82]

89. Bah-Humbug! Are You Offended by Christmas? - [173]

88. Are We Alone in The Universe? - [67]

87. The Pagan Web 2002... Your likes? Dislikes? - [50]

86. How’s Your Gratitude Attitude? - [64]

85. What’s Your Motivation? - [97]

84. Between the Veils: What Did You See? - [80]

83. Time to Talk Politics and Elections… - [109]

82. Your Samhain/Beltaine Musings - [50]

81. ExCUSE Me! Has Common Courtesy Become A Thing of the Past? - [97]

80. Polytheist, Monotheist, Dualist or Other? - [104]

79. Have You Switched Pagan Paths? - [110]

78. Would You Take Part in a Public Event or Protest AS a Pagan? - [268]

77. Pot-Kettle: Do We Have Our Own Fundamentalists? - [91]

76. America 911: One Year Later. What's Changed? Are we Safer? - [103]

75. So What Do YOU Think of the Pagan Web? - [43]

74. What is/was your 2002 New Year's resolution - [23]

73. Do You Believe in Faeries? - [44]

72. Is 'Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men' Possible? - [28]

71. How Do YOU View the Balance of Light and Dark? - [22]

70. What's News? - [22]

69. What Are Your Favorite Yule Traditions or Memories? - [17]

68. Are You Wild About Harry? - [80]

67. What Is Music? - [18]

66. What Did You Do this Samhain? - [8]

65. What ARE the most "Frequently Asked Questions' About Witches? - [31]

64. What Are YOUR book/video/dvd Recommendations? - [119]

63. Have You Done Any Protection Spells or Workings? - [38]

62. What Are Your Thoughts On The Current "War on Terrorism"? - [77]

61. Are You Willing To Give Up Some Civil Liberties To Be Safe? - [69]

60. What About Those Pagan Leaders Again? - [289]

59. 911 America: Talking Through The Terror... - [969]

58. What Are Your Plans For Fall? - [21]

57. If You Were Stranded Alone On A Deserted Island... - [56]

56. What Would You Like to See at The Voice? - [65]

55. What Lies Beyond? - [28]

54. What is the connection between Spirit, Nature and Humankind? - [18]

53. What is 'Will' or 'Willpower'? - [19]

52. Have you ever been to a Pagan Festival? - [26]

51. What Did You Think of 'The Mists of Avalon"? - [44]

50. What's Your Magickal Focus? - [33]

49. Ending Religious Discrimination-What's It Gonna Take? - [41]

48. How Fares The First Amendment? - [20]

47. Are you a Talker or a Listener? - [14]

46. Predator and Prey - What Beasts Live Within You? - [44]

45. Who Do You Trust? - [22]

44. Do You Spend Money with Pagan Merchants? - [24]

43. What's On Your Balloon? - [52]

42. Is There An Energy Crisis? - [30]

41. What Makes You So Special? - [33]

40. What is Your Guilty Little Secret? - [101]

39. Who Are Your Gods? - [55]

38. What Are The Greatest Challenges That Pagans Face Today? - [35]

37. What's On Your Altar? - [45]

36. Should the United States Apologize to China - [32]

35. Pagan Web Surfing Likes/Dislike - [60]

34. What Are Your Views on Abortion, Euthanasia and Suicide? - [95]

33. What Is The Appropriate Response to Bigotry and Religious Hatred? - [108]

32. Why Are Kids Killing Kids? - [60]

31. Whassa Matter With Kids Today? - [71]

30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

29. How About Some New Holidays? - [39]

28. Where Did You Get Your Magickal Name? - [93]

27. Where Are The Pagan Social Programs? Do We Care? - [22]

26. What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan? - [87]

25. What Are The Boundaries? - [26]

24. What is Pagan History and What is Pagan Belief? - [44]

23. Who or What is a "Pagan Leader"? - [61]

22. What More Do You Want To Know About Paganism? - [45]

21. What is/was your New Year's resolution? - [19]

19. What do YOU of our newest entry into the Presidential Political Pool? - [61]

20. What have YOU done to trace your family history? - [11]

18. Your Gift, Craft and Holiday Celebration Ideas! - [43]

17. Does Older Equal Better? - [199]

16. What is the best gift that you ever received? - [28]

15. What are YOU Thankful For? - [87]

14. The Unresolved US Election - [263]

13. Divination - [29]

12. Pagan Choice for the y2k US Election - [129]

11. Hollywood Hype - [74]

10. Money and the Craft - [82]

9. Pagan Jokes and Humorous Stories - [37]

8. Misconceptions About Witches, Wiccans and Pagans - [63]

7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

6. What are YOU planning for Mabon-Autumn Equinox? - [14]

5. Pagan books/web sites-dynamic or drivel? - [46]

4. The Broomcloset-In or Out?... What's YOUR View? - [181]

3. Church and State, Religion in School... What is YOUR View? - [122]

2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 28,368,130  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 87

Lurker/Post Ratio: 376 to 1

Question of the Week: 26 - 1/29/2001

What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan?

Pres. George Bush says that he will push a 'faith-based' social program this coming week that he hopes will grant federal money (taxpayer dollars) to fund religious groups doing social work. Does this plan violate the separation of church and state? If those federal bucks become available should Pagan religious groups make a grab for them, too? Or is this proposed religious feeding frenzy for secular federal money really a subtle plot to further bolster the Christian Radical Right's power to proselytize to the masses and, as Americans United believes, further erode the church-state wall?

 Reponses:   There are 87 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

There Is The Question Of Whether These Groups Are Doing Social Work... Jan 28th. at 10:01:55 pm EST

John Bilecki (effort, Pennsylvania US) Age: 44 - Email

There is the question of whether these groups are doing social work OR using this as a platform for proselytizing. The diversified (and fragmented) nature of our groups, coupled with the fact that we are not a 'missionary' religion, place pagan groups and individuals at a severe disadvantage when applying for federal funds. By default, the religous right will obtain most of these funds.

This will go through whether we like it or not. A vigorous and visible presence by us presents the greatest threat to the religous right. Receiving federal funds would 'legitimize' our beliefs in spite of them.

It is highly unlikely that we will ever come to an integrated set of beliefs. Nor should we, as our diversity is what makes our beliefs attractive. There is, nowever, one point that we should consider:


We need to unite politically, not religously! This could provide us with a unique opportunity to fight the RR on their own grounds. Establish a coalition of pagan social services, and use this group as a liason between pagan groups/individuals and the government. This group would apply for funding and distribute it to pagan groups providing social services. There is a much greater chance of obtaining the funds (and visibility) by using a single group as 'spokesperson'.

I should stop, as the reply is getting lengthy. Would anyone be willing to seriously discuss this on one of the chat boards?

The President's Proposed Faith-based Social Initiative Would Be A Violation Of The... Jan 28th. at 10:31:46 pm EST

Jeremy (San Antonio, Texas US) Age: 29 - Email

The President's proposed faith-based social initiative would be a violation of the separation of church/state, but I don't believe that this is necessarily a bad thing. If this initiative would be all-inclusive giving ample opportunity for a myriad of faiths to become involved in the lives of others. Unfortunately, pagans as well as many other belief systems will be left out of the equation in favor of Christianity first and foremost. It's a shame we can't break through this wall, for it would benefit everyone.

I Do Not Really Trust The Motives Of Anyone So Closely Associated... Jan 29th. at 1:16:08 am EST

the ShadowDancer (Tucson, Arizona US) Age: 47 - Email

I do not really trust the motives of anyone so closely associated with the Christian Right. However, since this situation is likely to come to pass, it would be nice if some of us Polytheists could get some advantage out of it.

Unfortunately that would call for a more solidified structure than is usual for most Neopagan groups. It would require accountability, boundries, a structure that could be put on paper to justify governmental RFPs (requests for proposals). Looking over last week's Question on boundries, most of the responses seemed to come from positions far too amorphous to receive Federal $$$$$$$$$$$$ for doing social work as a Faith-based program.

This is no longer the 70's, you know. You can't just apply and get Federal $$$$. You have to have programs in place, plans on how you propose to use the $$$$$$, qualified personnel. Face it, our Jewish/Moslem/Christian brothers and sisters have been doing these things for years at the organizational level.

We pagans are just barely forming out of the ether. It would be cool if we were at a place to be able to take on such an undertaking. Maybe in 5-10 years, I hope so!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I Would Rather Optomisticaly Belive That This Program Could Be Benificial... Jan 29th. at 6:12:42 am EST

KJ Burrier (fostoria, Ohio US) Age: 33 - Email

Although I would rather optomisticaly belive that this program could be benificial to many people, I know our government has or would eventually have a political agenda behind such a program. As a pagan I have no quarells for the perpetuation of anyones beliefs', but in the same respect I have a huge argument for the enforcement of some other group's beliefs over mine. Which would be done by the taking and spending of my money on such, in the form of tax dollars. As a libertarian I have no quarells for the great work of a community to come together and provide social assistance to those in need, but in the same respect it is no place of the government to decide if your religion is worthy enough to be granted to do so. Its for these reasons the issue of seperation between church and state was put into the constitution. The founding fathers went through the trials and tribulations of a state organised/funded religion and saw how no good could come from it. So I belive it is best to nip it in the bud and refuse and reject the notion of this no matter how well meaning it may seem to start as. I do like John's suggestion of a central pagan organisation (CPO) to accept and distribute funds for social or pagan interest. I also believe how ever any group or groups wishing to do so does not need the governments money to do this. This just encourages the law makers to take more taxes.

Freedom Of Religion Or Freedom From Religion? This Is A Very Hard... Jan 29th. at 8:11:38 am EST

Trish Telesco (western, New York US) Age: 40 - Email

Freedom of religion or freedom FROM religion?

This is a very hard call. My basic feeling is that Bush does not intend to make these monies easy to come by except for groups whose policies follow his own (yes, that's a judgemental statement but we've already seen an example of how non-inclusive he is by the terrible benediction at the inauguration). So unless this program is open to ALL faiths, and does not have hidden requirements that would allow certain religions more access than others, then I don't want it. The line of church and state is already being stomped all over - and if we're not very careful it could be erased alltogether.

Well, I Have To Admit It _sounds_ Good. Then Again, So Did... Jan 29th. at 10:04:13 am EST

Alexandra R. Bush (Hackensack, New Jersey US) Age: 21 - Email

Well, I have to admit it _sounds_ good.

Then again, so did communism, and look how all the attempts to put that into action did.

I think this plan would open the door to a great deal of exclusionism. Since Bush's admittedly born-again Christian goverment would be deciding which groups would get the funds, there's quite a chance that followers of religions not supported or liked by these bigots (namely, any other than their own) would suffer... and what about atheists, agnostics, and solitares?

H'm. Wasn't there something in the Constitution about a separation of church & state?

Greetings Pagans, We Feel That It Is To Break Down The Walls... Jan 29th. at 10:16:56 am EST

Nightstar (Joplin, Missouri US) Age: 50 - Email

Greetings Pagans,
We feel that it is to break down the walls of separation of church and state....that is the main idea, of course. Dubya is a Christian for his God's sake! What do we expect? However, there are areas of need and some religious charities have done some good work, so its a mixed bag.
A simple solution would be one where groups of religious entities work together for common good of their community. However, in our "let someone else do it' mentality that idea is lost. We are so accustomed to hand a dollar over to the government in order to get back a nickle and that is mostly lost in "administrative costs". Man is a very complicated lot!

I Think That President Bush Is On A Very Strong Hallucinogenic Drug... Jan 29th. at 10:32:55 am EST

MoonRider (Chickasha, Oklahoma US) Age: 23 - Email

I think that President Bush is on a very strong hallucinogenic drug to try and pull that out of his hat. This violates church and state to a great extent. For him to want to do this means that he alienates those who may not believe in God or if they do, subscribe to a specific religion. He feels that if faith-based social programs are promoted that all of societies ills will be cured, but it will take more than that to cure societies ills. This IS a move to bolster the Christian Radical Right.

Of Course This Is A Violation Of Church And State. Of Course... Jan 29th. at 10:51:48 am EST

Iko (Chicago, Illinois US) Age: 36 - Email

Of course this is a violation of church and state. Of course there are going to be court battles over the very notion of your and my tax dollars going to support the likes of any number of fundy bible thumpers. But in the mean time, when in Rome do as the Romans do! (Even if this strange Rome is your own country.) By this I mean every eligible Pagan group should apply for money as soon as they possibly can. (Now it should be interesting what kind of 'requirements' come with getting the money, what will you have to do to be eligible - and if it is much easier say for born again Southern Baptists to get funding than it is for any Pagan group.) We have already heard from the Bush camp in pre-election quotes that "the Witches" would not be getting any funding... lets see if he really wants a court battle regarding the legitimacy of any of the religions that fall under the Pagan umbrella of religions. Personally, I was hoping that I might just be able to ignore politics for the next four years. However, I knew and know more now than ever that we must not let the current conservative Christian regime that is running the country force us back into our broom closets. So, I say apply for the money and then be as loudly vocal as you can be when your group is turned down. Fight them all the way to the Supreme Court. It is up to us, every single one of us, to show that we are as religiously legitimate as our born again Christian next door neighbors.

This Is A Test Of Our Faith. My Initial Reaction Is To... Jan 29th. at 11:12:10 am EST

Sphinxring (Snoqualmie, Washington US) Age: 48 - Email

This is a test of our faith. My initial reaction is to want "someone" to make proposals for a social program run by pagans. From a political viewpoint, this would force the issue. However, there is likely to be all kinds of technical rules to winnow out anyone who is not sincere in their plans to institute a social program. Christian organizations can easily point at a history of social action, even if we might find the results repugnant. Can we say the same? I would hope so, but can't think of any. I really hope I'm wrong, but to don't think there are any. This points to the question "Why not?". The easy answer is that we are so ingrained with secrecy, that we avoid any hig profile activity that would expose our beliefs to public examination. Are we ready for this? Of course there is risk involved but what exactly is the risk? Likely not a new wave of burnings. Public ridicule? Opening our hearts to strangers? This issue asks if we are self-indulgent (I'm guilty!) or can sincerely reach out to the unfortunate. Merely mimicing Christian actions is playing their game by their rules. No, creative action must be evolved. I'd advise to oppose the erosion of the separation and church and state and simply oppose this initiative. Our actions need to be free of the greed and power seeking inherent with a rush to apply to play in this game.

Any Time That The Government Gets Mixed Up In Religion, We Are... Jan 29th. at 12:16:39 pm EST

Yasmine Galenorn (Seattle, Washington US) Age: 40 - Email

Any time that the government gets mixed up in religion, we are in for trouble. First it will start with supporting faith-based social programs, then it will extend into the conservative right creeping into the educational system, then our homes. We have to be very cautious not to get caught up in supporting an edict that goes against freedom from religion for those who choose to refrain from faith of *any* kind. Our country works best when we separate church from state, that is one of the primary tenets the U.S. is based on and we'd best not forget that--Christian, Pagan or otherwise. It's time we put a stop to these official 'religion-pushing' tactics. Call your senators, your representatives. Let them know we are here and we won't accept this (not-so-slow now) disintegration of our basic and agreed upon freedoms.

As A Political Science Major, Bush's New Social Policies Interest Me A... Jan 29th. at 12:31:29 pm EST

Hunter (Peterborough, Ontario CA) Age: 23 - Email

As a political science major, Bush's new social policies interest me a great deal, although I am Canadian, and do not have to worry about the effects that these policies will have on me personally, they still trouble me a great deal. It is one thing to lead a country and quite another to willfully shape it's ideologies. Public policy is designed to reflect the needs concerns and moral perspectuives of the political society, however in a country that is so diverse, much like my own, the decision over who's perspectives have more weight unfortunatly lies in the hands of the few elite, who proudly wave their banners of democracy! North America as a whole has far greater concerns other then who beliveves what, what sexual preferances they have, and if they are pro choice or pro life. Recentally here in Canada two gay couples married in Toronto Ontario, and were sent letters of Congradulations from our Governor Gernal, (a status position left over from our British heritage), this letter sparked a great debate amoung the Christian fundamentalists here in Canada who were actually trying to make the Governor retract her original letter, which she did not. In the mean time here, we have people living in tent cities on contaminated land, Native peoples who live in subhuman conditions, childern who live far benieth the poverty line and giant Corporations that sue governments because they pass laws prohibiting the sale of toxic chemicals on our public markets. These are Canadain examples, however for ever one of ours Americans have mirror ones. My point is that our governing bodies today need to take a good look at their coutries as a whole and narrow in on the issues that effect everyone no matter what their religion, ethnicity or economic status is, and it is up to us as rational thinking individuals and members of the political society to exercise our rights to approach our governments though State Governers, and Members of Parlimant (Canadain) to see to it that these people that we sent to office to repersent our concerns actually do the job that they were sent to do. Bush's new social policies do little more then apease those fundamental groups that filled his coffers during his champaign, these policies are not designed with the well being of a strong American domestic sphear, if they were then policies that pit individual interests against one another would be left on the cutting room floor.

 1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8  

Pagan Essays

Pagan Web
8,000 Links

Pagan Groups
Local Covens etc.

80,000 Profiles

Home - TWV Logos - Email US - Privacy
News and Information

Chapters: Pagan/Heathen Basics - Pagan BOOKS - Traditions, Paths & Religions - Popular Pagan Holidays - TV & Movies - Cats of the Craft - Festival Reviews - Festival Tips - White Pages (Resources) - Issues/Concerns - West Memphis 3 - Witch Hunts - Pagan Protection Tips - Healing Planet Earth

Your Voices: Adult Essays - Young Pagan Essays - Pagan Perspectives (On Hold) - WitchWars: Fire in the Craft - Gay Pagan - Pagan Parenting - Military - Pagan Passages

Pagan Music: Pagan Musicians - Bardic Circle at WitchVox - Free Music from TWV

Vox Central: About TWV - Wren: Words, Wrants and Wramblings - Guest Rants - Past Surveys - A Quest for Unity

Weekly Updates: Click HERE for an index of our weekly updates for the past 6 years

W.O.T.W. - World-Wide Networking

Your Town: A Link to YOUR Area Page (The largest listing of Witches, Pagans, Heathens and Wiccans on the Planet)

VoxLinks: The Pagan Web: 8,000 Listings

Your Witchvox Account: Log in Now - Create New Account - Request New Password - Log in Problems

Personal Listings: Pagan Clergy in Your Town - Adult Pagans - Young Pagans - Military Pagans

Events: Circles, Gatherings, Workshops & Festivals

Covens/Groups/Orgs: Local Groups Main Page

Other LOCAL Resources: Local Shops - Regional Sites - Local Notices - Global/National Notices - Local Skills & Services - Local Egroups - Political Freedom Fighters

Pagan Shopping: Online Shops Index - Original Crafters Sites - Auction Sites - Pagan Wholesalers - Pagan Local Shops

Web Site Content (including: text - graphics - html - look & feel)
Copyright 1997-2020 The Witches' Voice Inc. All rights reserved
Note: Authors & Artists retain the copyright for their work(s) on this website.
Unauthorized reproduction without prior permission is a violation of copyright laws.