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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,476,508  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 153

Lurker/Post Ratio: 214 to 1

Question of the Week: 95 - 1/19/2003

How Do You Feel About War?

‘Yes I'm talking about this war dance/ A patriotic romance./And I know all you poets/Have seen it all before…’ – Colin Moulding, XTC

Colin: ‘The words were originally prompted by the Falklands War in 1982. But it was too much on one piece of history. Then along came the Persian Gulf War and I put the revised lyrics to a new piece of music. It was time to bring war out of the closet again.’


And again, it would seem. How do you, from your own spiritual perspective or tradition, view and/or cope with the ideals and realities of war and armed conflict?

Do your political leanings influence how you feel?

Do you have a difficult time explaining/defending/advocating your position to other Pagans or Heathens? Non-Pagans?

 Reponses:   There are 153 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


"When Will They Ever Learn...?" Jan 24th. at 2:59:08 pm UTC

Foxheart (New Hampshire) Age: 23 - Email


Sorrow is the only word I can use to describe my feelings about war and the upcoming violence against Iraq. I quoted a popular anti-war song above (not remembering the artist or title) because it is so as and so true. I have also heard someone say that nobody ever wins a war. People die, they kill. Killing is against every moral code known to humanity, Wicca included. War is horrifying. Since the dawn of history people have been waging wars against each other over land rights, immagined offenses, real offenses, and in the name of progress. War never created peace, only death. War never brought anyone comfort, especially not to those who lost a loved one to the ravages to it.

Most Americans have not been deep in a war zone. To be honest neither have I. But war is not cool. War breeds fear, hatred, malace, contempt between contires and individuals. War destroys lives, environments, countries, and spirits. War costs money, blood, tears, and sweat.

Next time your government asks you to go and murder people in the name of freedom, try to imagine what it feels like to have your leg blown off by a land mine or your lungs melted and seared by noxious gas fumes. Imagine what it would be like if you held a child in your arms whose chest had been shattered by a bullet from a machine gun.

Pretty images huh?

Peace.


Lions, And Tigers And BIG OIL...oh My! Jan 24th. at 3:43:32 pm UTC

diesel (washington) Age: 46 - Email


there certaintly seem to be alot of bike riders out there that NEVER use plastics of any sort. are these also the same people that are vegetarians but also wear leather shoes?
BIG OIL....what a rallying cry for fools. good grief.........
do any of you even realize where all that oil goes? what it is used to make? not just gasoline, dear ones, try every I.V. bag....and the list goes on and on. so the next time you are in an auto [errr...excuse me....BIKE]accident BE SURE to tell the emergency room people that you don't want to use anything that BIG OIL has produced.
and by the way, are you reading your email on a computer?
yeah.....i thought so.
start thinking for yourselves. there's a novel thought. no one WANTS a war...but sometimes there is no choice.and it's not about oil.
conflict is sometimes necessary.
how many of you that preach "it's against the wiccan reed to kill" have had an abortion or are pro choice?
common sense should really kick in here........
do you even know who is printing those silly no war signs? do you care? it's the peole's communist party. and we know how swell those communists are. boy....they have such a GREAT track record in the human rights department.
it's so american and so great to have your own opinion and express it freely.
just try to make sure that it really is your own opinion.......do your research.
and use your brain............that's what the god's put it on your shoulders for afterall...........


And......... Jan 24th. at 4:30:44 pm UTC

diesel (washington) Age: 46 - Email


i forgot to add that it would be great if we could just pick off the few royal pains [like saddam] that cause so much pain and suffering in the world.but , alas, the days of throttling really annoying people and throwing them in the bog are over.during the holidays i mourned this fact quite often.LOL. my ancestors had such a great idea............ what a shame to have to throw it out in the name of modern society.ah well...what can you do?


Unless You Have Served... Jan 24th. at 4:53:40 pm UTC

Ironfox (Wendell, NC) Age: 33 - Email


Merry Meet everyone,

O.K, here is my two cents worth. I served in the US Navy for 13 years and in the NC Army National Guard for two years before getting out on medical problems. I love my country and would have retired from the Navy if I could have. I firmly believe that everyone has a right to their own opinion but the topic of War should be left to those who have served and fought for their country. The United States should drasticlly change it's foreign policy. I think we should go back to pre WWII isolationist policy. Maybe not as extreme but we do not need to fight a war three or four fronts. The country as a whole should concentrate on improving life in the U.S.A before going anywhere else. Once we eliminate poverty, homelessness and other problems, then we can try to do things outside the US Borders. In my younger days I voted almost entirely Repulican but as I get older I can not even stomach most of the things this War mongering party is trying to do. If our beloved CinC(Commander In Chief) has his way, all Non Christians would be purged from American Soil, including those of us who fought for our country to have the right to practice and worship who we want to.


I Don't Know, WHOSE War? Jan 24th. at 5:48:29 pm UTC

Amused (Boomfook, USA) Age: 777 - Email


Conflict is part of life, woven into the very fabric of the universe. From the teachings of my tradition, I know this to be true. The Samos and Giamos principles contend with each other, and in so doing, create the universe. Day contends against night, summer against winter. The predator contends against the prey. The Gods, the Shining Ones, contend against the demonic spirits of falsehood and corruption.

Sometimes it is necessary for humans to fight, to defend themselves against an aggressor, or to BECOME an aggressor, in order to get something that they need, or, more often, that their children need, to survive. There is nothing wrong with this. Given my own beliefs, I can hardly condemn all wars, or say that war is always an evil.

However, war is always a serious matter, a matter of literal life and death. It is the most intense and all-encompassing form of violence possible to human beings, never to be entered into lightly, or without the most serious of reasons. When considering a war, any war, we must ask ourselves, is the war truly necessary to OUR community?

To ask this question, we must figure out who our community is. Who are WE? We know that we are Pagans. Are Pagans also Americans? Since 9-11, the answer of the Bush administration, and of Christian America generally, has been an unequivolcal NO. No matter how much we may believe in the ideals of the Founding Fathers of America, no matter how much we may want to be Americans, and believe in America, the American people have told us in no uncertain terms that we are suspect, that we are without the same rights as everyone else, that we are unwelcome, not wanted in the War on Terror, not a part of the American Nation.

That being so, and it is, whether we like it or not, then we must belong to a new, or very old, nation, the PAGAN Nation, a people unto ourselves, despised by all, universally held up to ridicule, but growing stronger just the same. We are not Americans, nor British, nor French, nor Irish, nor Australians, nor anything but Pagans, the people of the Goddess, the Stewards of the Earth. We are not a numerous people, and nobody loves us.

So, then, are the War on Terror, or the War on Iraq, necessary to the Pagan Nation?

1. The War on Terror is a war against Islamic Fundamentalists, who wage war against everyone not of themselves. They attacked all peoples when they attacked the World Trade Center. On the face of it, this IS our war. However, things are not simple. There is clear and growing evidence that they did so with the knowledge and cooperation of the Bush Administration. How, then, can we ally with one set of the attackers against the other? Actually, we can, with patience and a bit of cynicism. We can cooperate with one group of attackers to destroy the other, while making sure that our allies do not grow stronger due to our efforts, but that we grow stronger instead, and then turn on those very allies, in order to defeat them, and so to make the world safe for OUR way of life. This is a long term project, on the order of decades or centuries, but it is our only way through the passage ahead.

2. The War on Iraq, however, is a war for oil, when there is already plenty of oil in the world market. The Bush Administration has not convinced me that Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 9-11, nor have they shown why we need to spend human lives to reduce the price of gas by a few cents. Further, the War on Iraq is a means for the demogogue to cement his power, and he has used it, and will use it, to crack down on dissidents, including us. It is not a war that will do anything to help our community. We have no reason to support it. Indeed, everthing I have seen so far argues that it is a fatal distraction from the War on Terror, and the prelude to an open-ended war in the Middle East that cannot in victory for anyone but the terrorists. On the other hand, to prevent the War on Iraq will undermine the dictator's power, and will lead to his fall, which can only strengthen the Pagan Nation.

So, there you have it. I am for any war that is good for PAGANS. The War on Terror may or may not be. The War on Iraq certainly is not, and is not, therefore, our war.


Good Quote Jan 24th. at 6:53:10 pm UTC

Blade Alywyn (Riverside, MO) Age: 33 - Email


War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left.


True.......... Jan 24th. at 8:12:26 pm UTC

diesel (washington) Age: 46 - Email


war does only determine who's left.....and we are all the offspring of the strongest survivors.don't kid yourselves.


Bad Counting? Jan 24th. at 8:33:13 pm UTC

Morsaille (Seattle, WA) Age: 26 - Email


What causes me great frustration is watching the news unfold as I realize that each word is carefully chosen to invoke fear in the hearts and minds of the American people. We hear words like "cooperate" and "detainee" except do we know what Saddam could do in order to cooperate? Does the American public realize that "detainee" is nice word for prisoner of war and that we have been holding POW's for 2 years?
UN inspectors were given information about the disposal of weapons and weapons grade materials. The search for contraband began with the understanding that if the UN fails to find weapons we will declare war against Iraq for lying?
The polls say that 25% of Americans are opposed to military action, but who are they polling?
What constitutes War? Bombing? We are already doing that. The no-fly zone and several "radar sites" are bombed routinely.
Iraq is guilty of no direct action towards the US or its troops since Desert Storm, but controls most of the worlds oil reserves. Funny how government has superimposed Iraqs identity so that some Americans actually believe we are invading and threatening the country responsible for the attacks in NY.
In a fair fight two parties exchange blow for blow (not that I am pro-fighting) but in essence the US has invaded a weaker country, shoved its leader to the ground demanding its lunch money. "You will never be as strong as we are, so don't even try, hear?" The immasculated leader is not permitted to defend himself because the UN has tied his hands and is closely watching for any sign of aggression while the US goes through its pockets.

Don't misunderstand, I am actually pro-UN because the UN is less susceptible to the lure and pangs of greed and global wealth. If the US goes it alone, the rewards will be much greater than if shared with the global community.


Another Good Quote... Jan 24th. at 9:10:30 pm UTC

Owl Starlight (Aliso Viejo, CA) Age: 17 - Email


"An eye for an eye, and the whole world is blind." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

I thought that one particularly appropriate...

"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson


Weaker Nation? Jan 24th. at 9:25:34 pm UTC

diesel (washington) Age: 46 - Email


now it's poor little iraq? are you kidding?
i understand that alot of you are young and have never traveled the world. you are still learning[hey! aren't we all].my sister was born while the family was living in libya. remember that country? that used to be the place all the fools felt sorry for. big bad america was going to take them over too. didn't happen though ,did it?
iraq is not sitting on the world's largest supply of oil. check your facts. sao tome is. a small island off the coast of africa. and it's "sweet" oil too. that means less processing=less pollution. easier to get, easier to use.
and once again...this is not about oil.
it all comes down to one thing really. VX gas exists. would you rather have your mother or charlie manson holding it?
we need to take it away from the less responsible. it would be wonderful if no one had it. but someone always will..or something worse. chemists have a favorite saying......better living through chemistry.
true in a way..........but it also means that there will always be someone somewhere that is creating something dangerous.it's only really dangerous when in the wrong hands though, isn't it?
and before you side with such swell countries as france[you should see what they have done in the south pacific....i have lived there too] and germany [host of both world wars] think about what our country does stand for.are you being stoned to death for being who you are? you are not.
yes, the president is a christian. oh so what? are we bigots now too?
it's okay to say the truly loathesome things i read here about christians but let them say anything about us and all hell breaks loose.are we going to be like the worst people and say that we know the only truth?
i'm sorry...but christianity is a valid religion for many. as valid as ours.
and who knows........maybe who ever wrote some of the more prominant religious tracts was dyslexic and GOD is really DOG. i know.old joke but hey it could happen............


Yes, It Is Poor Iraq. Jan 24th. at 11:20:24 pm UTC

Skeggi (New Zealand) Age: 32 - Email


Yes it is poor Iraq. The people there have the right not to be killed by your cruise missiles the same as your people(and others)have the right not to be blown up.
So remember when bombs and missiles take the life of a mother or father or son or daughter, you will have no right to complain when someone else does it to you.
Skeggi


Why Can't We All Just Get Along Jan 25th. at 4:15:24 am UTC

Beth (Tennessee) Age: 27 - Email


I feel that war in itself is an animalistic nature. Who is our government to say what's right and what's wrong . I feel that if we have nuclear weapons to protect ourselves then why shouldn't any outher country have the same priviledge. My personal opionion is we should get rid of all of them even ours. I think that talk of war and fighting is the one reason our youth of today acts out. I mean why shouldn't they , the country they live in does it. I just don't like the idea of war if it can be avoided. War does strange things to people. I just think that the United States is giving off the impression that we are bullies. That's not what American is supposed to be about, somehow I think that along the way America has become more like a dictator. Our government tells other countries how to run there own country when in fact its none of our business. If the people of those countries have a problem with the way there country is ran let them rise up together and deal with it themselves. America needs to mind its own business and for pity sakes stop giving away the countries money. We need it to take care of our own. Link to More info related to this post -- HERE


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