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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,930,699  

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Question of the Week: 26 - 1/29/2001

What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan?

Pres. George Bush says that he will push a 'faith-based' social program this coming week that he hopes will grant federal money (taxpayer dollars) to fund religious groups doing social work. Does this plan violate the separation of church and state? If those federal bucks become available should Pagan religious groups make a grab for them, too? Or is this proposed religious feeding frenzy for secular federal money really a subtle plot to further bolster the Christian Radical Right's power to proselytize to the masses and, as Americans United believes, further erode the church-state wall?

 Reponses:   There are 87 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

Gwb's "faith-based" Program Is Plainly Unconstitutional And Illegal. Bush, And Those Who... Jan 29th. at 12:47:55 pm EST

SGIWizard (St. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 34 - Email

GWB's "faith-based" program is plainly unconstitutional and illegal. Bush, and those who are running the country through him, must have contempt
for the intelligence of the American public to try to push this through. People are bound to ask themselves why the new administration considers it "wasteful spending" to allocate federal funds for social programs, yet wishes to funnel the same $$ to churches for an ostensibly similar purpose. The answer is that the objectives aren't the same at all. Christian churches, which are bound to get the lion's share of the money should this program be
established, will use the funds to proselytize and push regressive social behavior on vulnerable people, often in desperate situations, who will listen to
just about anything to get warm food to eat and a roof over their heads.

I don't think we Pagans should try to make a grab for the funds, if they become
available. It's much more in our interest to promote a strict separation of church and state, as put forth in our Constitution, and to stress that the federal government is not allowed to promote ANY religious institution, financially or otherwise. If the public doesn't see the illegality of this program, after-the-fact complaints by left-out Pagans won't cause a light to dawn. Given GWB's refusal to recognize our religion, we have the proverbial snowball's chance of receiving any funds -- but if by some fluke we did get some, would we feel comfortable accepting it knowing that the vast majority of the remainder is going towards preaching fundamentalist dogma?

I Highly Oppose This Move By Bush For Very Personal Reasons. My... Jan 29th. at 1:21:35 pm EST

Morganlillith (Wixom, Michigan US) Age: 35 - Email

I highly oppose this move by Bush for very personal reasons. My husband died 4years ago, leaving my daughter and I with very little resource. We had no insurance, and I had not been working, for I was home taking care of my sick husband. After his death, I had no recourse but to take help from Christian charities. My problem was that I had to denounce my own religious beliefs to accept this help. It left my daughter and I feeling helpless and ashamed. There were no pagen groups to help us through this tragedy which left us feeling abandoned and destitute. I have worked hard for the last 4 years to recover what life I had left, and the Christian "help" we recieved was little to nothing and for this I was to feel ashamed and hide my own religious beliefs. I see nothing but tragedy for all pagens who need help in the future. Bush has already denounced our religious faith, so to think that we would get any of this money to help our needy, is a pipe dream. It leaves the Christian radicals to spread thier idiology across this country, taking advantage of the sick and the poor. My prayers have been to see pagen schools and groves to open up in this country as visable as the Christian churches have been allowed to grow, to give people a place to go to get such help as they need and give our children a place to be educated without the harrassment that my family has been put through. Because of my religious beliefs, I have had to pull my child from 2 schools and endure death threats against her with no help from the school officials who were to protect her. Being a pagen in this country right now is dangerous enough without Bush pushing another nail in our coffins with this proposed bill. Personally, if this retoric continues, I have considered giving up my citizenship to become Canadian. At least I could find a home in which I am not afraid for my life or that of my children, and I could rear my children with religious beliefs without fear. I thought america was suppose to be based on religious freedom. Somehow, I feel I was wrong. It is religious freedom if you are Christian. Bush is just telling us all that if you are not Christian then get out of the country, and pretty soon, I will oblige. I would rather be canadian than live in fear and denounce my religious beliefs for the minority.

This Is Another Grey Area For Me... On The One Hand, If... Jan 29th. at 1:27:24 pm EST

Rhiannon (Seattle, Washington US) Age: 34

This is another grey area for me...
on the one hand, if this was actually going to be a fair thing, open to ALL groups who are doing something to support and help the community, it could be a good thing. However, I don't see that happening with this administration. What will be the guidelines on who is chosen to receive monies? I echo the sentiment that many groups will be left out, we know where Bush stands in accords to religion.
I'm afraid I feel he is not really doing this for the good of all, but more to further himself, with his many relgious campaign backers. I could be wrong...

But I don't think so.
The question on separation of church and state, well that's obvious to me, it does go against that. This worries me as well. There was a reason it was separated in the first place, after all. It doesn't work the "other" way.

Another personal problem I have with this is I see so many large, expensive churches and I think to myself, they already have plenty of money, what are they doing with it besides building more elaborate places of worship? Do I want my tax dollars to go to such places, denominations aside, NO! I don't. While I still respect anyone's faith, one of the reasons I left the Christian path was the hypocrisy of such things. Preaching giving yet I saw so much taking, excess and...
oops, I'll stop that rant right there. You get the point.
I oppose this bill, I do not believe it will be all inclusive, just or fair, and I don't wish to see religion become one with the goverment, we've been there, done that.
If private citizens wish to contribute to programs of THEIR choice, that's wonderful, I don't think the President should be basically telling us which ones are worthy.

I Thought The Right Wing Was Against Welfare, But What This Move... Jan 29th. at 1:33:21 pm EST

Witchward (Chicago, Illinois US) Age: 37 - Email

I thought the right wing was against welfare, but what this move basically amounts to is welfare for government approved Christian churches. We all know thaat there will be no Pagan organization receiving any of these funds, Bush promised us this during the campaign. Rest assured, in order to "unite and not divide" Bush will allow some funds to go to hand picked Islamic and Jewish organizations, however, I am doubtful that Buddhist, or Hindu organizations will receive anything.

I agree that Pagan organizations should apply for every penny of this we can. It can only add fuel to the fire of any lawsuits against this action. As a former volunteer minister in a state penal institution, I can honestly say that I personally spent a great deal of time, energy, and my own funds in order to attempt to help Pagan inmates come to grips and accept responsibility for the actions that landed them in prison. What's good for Christian organizations is good for a Pagan organization providing the same service.

I Think We Only Need To Look At The Prayer Delievered By... Jan 29th. at 2:40:11 pm EST

Dragon Hawk (Mesa, Arizona US) Age: 24 - Email

I think we only need to look at the prayer delievered by Billy Graham's son during the inauguration to answer any questions about this issue. Graham called on Bush and his administration to do everything "according to God's law". As a Pagan, this really disturbed me. As a Gay Pagan, this scared and enraged me to no end. Although I understand Dubya's desire to help the needy of our country by providing them with much-needed resources and a sense of peace and dignity, I do not trust him and his administration, toadies to the religious right, to administer these proposed funds to organizations that would reach across religious and cultural lines. I don't think there is any other course of action to take but opposition on the grounds of maintaining the separation of church and state.

George W. Has Made It Clear That He Stands For Religious Segregation... Jan 29th. at 3:08:21 pm EST

Emerald (Fort Lauderdale, Florida US) Age: 19

George W. has made it clear that he stands for religious segregation. His brand of prejudice is ancient and distasteful. He and his associates seek to establish an Aristocracy with the hollow illusion of a Democracy, with the wealthy white conservative Christian men as the only folk in this country deemed 'competent' to deserve their rights as Americans and human beings. It reminds me of how these same people, two hundred years ago, tried to pass a voting tax that only the elite class could possibly afford. King George II thinks that just because the Supreme Court elected him President, we all inherit his religion the way countries used to inherit new religions when new Kings would take the throne or new conquerors come to dominate them. We know that Bush's faith-based religious plan will be targeted primarily at Christians, he has been saying as much all along, and while he may have to let some Jewish, Muslim, and perhaps Buddhist and Hindu groups have some of the funding, that is just for show, 98% of it will go to Christians, and as long as objects are still bound to the earth by gravity you can bet Mister Bush will see to it that no pagan or heathen group gets a single red dime of that money, afterall, as far as he's concerned we're manipulative devil-worshippers, and worse still he actually believes wholeheartedly that God and Jesus agree with him. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get any of this money, let's try, and if we don't get to share in any of this funding let's organize and file a lawsuit or something. As for how I feel about the whole concept of faith-based plans, I disagree with it, and think that our Founding Fathers had a very good vision and it would be horrible to distort it by acting as though they did not say very specifically that no religion shall be endorsed by the U.S. Government, and likewise no religion shall be denounced by our Government, all religions are supposed to be recognized and respected. In closing, Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Al Gore.

As A Social Worker Who Studied International And Comparative Social Policy In... Jan 29th. at 3:10:20 pm EST

Marea (Niagara Falls, Ontario CA) Age: 30 - Email

As a social worker who studied international and comparative social policy in school, I've heard this all before. There was a time (not so long ago), that faith-based organizations were solely responsible for ANY support or welfare an individual needed. No government programs existed for welfare, workmen's compensation, employment insurance, health benefits, etc. Those seeking support from such faith-based programs were forced to conform their lives to the moral and religious doctrines of the organization, while enduring intensely patronizing and judgmental attitudes all the way. The reason we now have government programs is because we as a society collectively viewed the old "faith-based" system as inadequate and inequitable. Frankly, I don't believe a return to that system will show any difference in attitude between 2001 and 1901.

While the idea of spiritual service to another is laudable and as important as breathing, I don't believe we as a society have evolved to the point where we can trust one another to truly "love one another as I have loved you". We're not ready - not just pagans but all of us. The very attitude towards the definition of what and what is not a religion displayed by the current American administration proves this.

The only way I can see these attitudes changing is to show that we are able and willing - to devote much more of our efforts into serving and caring for those less fortunate in large scale ways that cannot be missed or misinterpreted. Otherwise, insist upon the strict separation of church and state in all funding matters - so that ANY religious organization may not recieve a penny of government funding. This is the only equitable way. Personally, I prefer the first alternative.


In Theory, Faith Based Initiatives Are An Interesting Proposition. And Might Actually... Jan 29th. at 4:35:50 pm EST

Jennifer (Columbus, Ohio US) Age: 28 - Email

In theory, faith based initiatives are an interesting proposition. And might actually work in instances where secular programs have failed. However, considering that the certain groups that would most likely benifit are the groups that are heavily focused on proselytizing, I am deeply circumspect. To make matters worse, I have heard of NO provisions ensuring that all religions who so choose to administer such programs will have equal access. I have deep doubts, to be frank, outright disbelief that those in charge of approval process will be so concious of Freedom of Religion, a corner stone of the US Constitution. Who will gareentee that Pagans, Muslims, Jews, Hari Christners and even the Church of Satan will be able to get funding. Whether thru outright denial or beaurecratic process, I am sure we will be facing descrimination yet again.

Worse than that, I am deeply conserned that such groups admininstering aid will be able to require recipients to attend worship services, and religious education to suit the relig. trad that is providing the services. I think this, along with other issues and problems, will prevent many truly needy people from seeking the help they need. I also fear that these faith-based groups will become the only game in town under the Republican Right Agenda. For many of their ilk, they would take any opportunity to shut down all the social service agencies and departments if they could.

I Suppose That We Should Have Expected This. A Deeply, Religiously Conservative... Jan 29th. at 4:46:28 pm EST

Seabhac (Concord, California US) Age: 28 - Email

I suppose that we should have expected this.

A deeply, religiously conservative man has been put in high position (not elected), and he has made it clear that his way is the right way, that his ideas are the right ideas, and he will not back down from any of them.

This "faith-based" initiative is not a good idea, period. Christianity is evangelical, and as such, the churches and organizations of that faith *will* do their level best to spread the "good word". Trying to put in happy-happy-touchy-feely language into the initiative to supposedly prevent that from happening is just a way for Mr. Bush to say that he's doing the right thing. Even the fact that he refers to it as "faith-based" proves that he is focusing on the religious, rather than the charitable.

The problem is, this initiative is not the right thing. While the various conservative Christian faiths are bound and determined that their way is the right way, they will proselytize in any venue - including charity work. And if they receive funds supposedly earmarked for charity work, they *will* be able to spread that "good word" in more and more situations.

This is, to some degree, about the separation of church and state. Mr. Bush apparently does not believe in the separation of 'his' church and 'his' state.
Everything he has done so far proves this - from the declaration of the day after his inauguration as a day of prayer, through the nomination of John Ashcroft (who is even more of a religious conservative Christian), and then this initiative.

And this will only get worse. If we stand up against this, we show both him and those around him that we will *not* be bullied into following along with the majority. If we do not stand up, then we are simply letting the bully rule the playground, and it will get worse for pagans day by day.

Mr. Bush is showing an astounding lack of good sense. Perhaps his faith makes him certain, but he doesn't have the right to force the rest of us to subscribe to his faith, especially through this "faith-based" initiative.

As was posted earlier, write to your representatives, write to your senators. But more importantly than that, watch the news for more of his efforts. Only if we are silent will this man be able to harm us.

Bush's Plan Is A Flagrant Violation Of The Separation Of Church And... Jan 29th. at 4:52:41 pm EST

AnOwl (Ravenswood, Illinois US) Age: 37

Bush's plan is a flagrant violation of the separation of church and state. We as Americans and as Pagans should fight the planned use of taxpayer money for religious uses, or uses by religious organizations (no matter what non-secular uses they claim it will go towards). In the mean time WE SHOULD stand in line right beside the fundamentalist Christian organizations and ASK FOR THE MONEY. It is after all, money that comes just as much from you and me (from our tax dollars) as it comes from anybody else. Who amongst us should ask for this money? There are plenty of non-profit Pagan groups out there. The great majority of Pagans, and all non-profit Pagan groups of which I am aware, are strictly by bound by their beliefs to never proselytize. That fact in and of itself guarantees that Pagan groups will not do what we fear the mainstream Christian groups will do - go on a national recruiting spree. Pagans might actually do a better job of using the money for charitable works than most any other group would do - we at the very least could do just as good of a job. If you are Pagan and you do not think that there are Pagan groups around you who are doing non-profit volunteer work for the good of the general community you need to look around a little more. There are many, many such groups. They, as a rule, do not 'toot their own horns, ' (it's a karma thing) but the most certainly are out there and most certainly could use cash to do their work. Again, I do not think taxpayer money should ever go to any - and I mean ANY - religious organization. But if it is going to go to one, it should go to all. By the way, I don't know where it is written that a religious group that is given this money must say while doing charity work that they are a religious group. We as a society are used to religions doing "charitable work" while at the same beating us over our heads with their religious messages. There is no rule that says that is the way it has to be. You could be a Pagan group and operate a shelter, a soup kitchen, a counseling service, or any other number of needed charitable services and never ever once mention religion at all. It is a mighty wondrous way to operate. The notion will be shocking to most Christians, but it is second nature to most Pagans to keep their religion to themselves. Again I will reiterate I do not want the government to give out tax dollars to churches or religious groups of ANY kind. However, if it is going to happen we should stand up and be counted. We should not exclude ourselves just because we disagree with the plan. If we do, our self exclusion may very well turn around and bite our butts when we wake up one day in the newly "Christian Only" USA. We should make the Bush administration realize that it is not going to be easy to give our money, our tax dollars, only to the groups that he and his fundamentalist Christian supporters deem legitimate (i.e. other fundamentalist Christians). We know he is not going to allow Pagans to join his little group of "State Approved Religious Organizations." Sadly, it is very likely that this little scheme of Bush and friends will succeed. If we as Pagan groups do not ask for the money, and then get turned down (as you KNOW we will), then how will we ever be able to challenge this horrible plan in court? If the Bush administration is forced through the courts to count every religious request equally, whether it is Christian or Pagan, I doubt it will take much time before they scrap the whole idea of giving our tax dollars away to any religious organization. That is the day I await.

Well, I'll Tie Myself To The Stake And Say That I Believe... Jan 29th. at 6:05:33 pm EST

Pandora (Orlando, Florida US) Age: 15 - Email

Well, I'll tie myself to the stake and say that I believe that this faith-based social program is not a terribly bad thing. As much as some pagans here would like to deny it, many Christian groups do amazing amounts of social service that is helpful to their communities. And they do not do it because they want to convert the poor little heathens to Christianity. They do it because the Bible supports helping their fellow man, and their God supports it.

Quite honestly, I think that a Christian/Jewish/Muslim organization could make better use of the money now then a pagan organization could. They are much larger then we are and capable of doing more things with the money. No pagan organization I can name has the manpower to use the money the right way. Nor, it seems, do they have the conviction-most pagan groups seem to believe that the only reason they function is to protect us all from those evil, hate-mongering Christians who are actually following exactly what their religion says...but that's another rant =).

Now, to draw attention to the Bush-bashing going around here. YES, we know he is a Christian. YES, we know he is a conservative one
So ask yourself this-are you against Bush because you honestly disagree with his political ideas, or are you against him because of his religion? Though you may not admit it, 9 out of 10 of you are the latter. That makes you guilty of everything you accuse him of doing.

Well, This Is The First Time I Have Heard Of This Initiative... Jan 29th. at 6:44:22 pm EST

Galen (New Westminster, British Columbia CA) Age: 34 - Email

Well, this is the first time I have heard of this initiative, and to be honest, it scares me to death... And I'm Canadian!

George W. Bush. The man who signs execution warrants without a second thought. The man who signed into law the ability of the worst polluters in Texas to write the environmental protection legislation. The man who did not even have his first paying job until he was in his forties. The man who at least to me is nothing more than a muothpiece for the Religous Right.

Let me get this right... He wants to spend public monies supporting organizations whose aims are the end of choice for pregnant mothers, the avowed destruction / eradication gays, and the foundation of a state ruled by a christian theocratic elite? He wants to give them money to run the social programs that (at least for the time being) are mandated by federal law?!? So... when he and his masters start to cahnge the laws, whittling away at those same said programs, given the voter apathy of recent years, who will stop him?

Yes, I know there are many christians do many kind and good acts, who do live as they say they do, but the kind of christians that George Dubya runs with are the ones who will win most of the money.

As for being safe in Canada...HA! We have our very own version, home grown and bred. He goes by the name of Stockwell Day. If you think George Dubya is nasty, Stock the Jock is worse! Before he went into politics, he was a christain minister, who among his other dubious distinctions, supported one of Canada's worst holocaust deniers and anti-semites, advocated the dismantleing of the social services system in Canada, called for a bounty on gays, and most recently cost the taxpayers of Alberta $790, 000+ for a libel suit where he accused the lawyer of the same offences that his client was accused of, at the same time calling for the man's summary conviction , without a trial! So anything that George Dubya suggests, Stock the Jock will go for like a starving dog!

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