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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 24,664,911  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 153

Lurker/Post Ratio: 214 to 1

Question of the Week: 95 - 1/19/2003

How Do You Feel About War?

‘Yes I'm talking about this war dance/ A patriotic romance./And I know all you poets/Have seen it all before…’ – Colin Moulding, XTC

Colin: ‘The words were originally prompted by the Falklands War in 1982. But it was too much on one piece of history. Then along came the Persian Gulf War and I put the revised lyrics to a new piece of music. It was time to bring war out of the closet again.’

And again, it would seem. How do you, from your own spiritual perspective or tradition, view and/or cope with the ideals and realities of war and armed conflict?

Do your political leanings influence how you feel?

Do you have a difficult time explaining/defending/advocating your position to other Pagans or Heathens? Non-Pagans?

 Reponses:   There are 153 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

The Weeping Of A Thousand Thousand Years Jan 20th. at 8:08:16 am EST

Starlight Bunnybutt (FL, USA) Age: 26 - Email

"The spear in the Other's heart is the spear in your own, you are he." - Surak

If I were to strike off your hand, my wrist would bleed. Can you not hear the weeping of a thousand thousand mothers over the bodies of their children? Would you bear the lash or strike down the one who hits you? Do you think he does not have a mother who once suckled him and called him her only love?

Were our wars necessary, would they have come about if they hadn't been caused by a society that found violence against others necessary? If our insistance on war did not foster the culture that raised the warmongers, could we then see how each being is our kin?

Shall I cut out my right eye to see a better tomorrow? Is such a tomorrow possible if it is built on the deaths we reap today? Change is not made by the violent man, but by the man who sees a way other than violence.

Wisdom and enlightenment tell us that peace is the only path towards a peaceful future. To paraphrase a very wise Vulcan: "Reach out to those whom have wronged you with peace. And if he should strike you again, offer peace. And if he should strike you dead you go offering him peace. In this way shall your life be peaceful." Surak ("Spocks World", Diane Duane)

Perhaps a culture that lived that way would be destroyed by the first who wished to conquer them. The question to ask is if a culture that believes any other way deserves to live.

Harm None Jan 20th. at 8:12:44 am EST

Amber Moon (Kansas City) Age: 41 - Email

I agree with Xius, and most all of the other posts. Harm none means exactly that, and includes self. So, defensive measures yes. . . but oil for weasel-eyed Bush, no.

My Thoughts Jan 20th. at 9:20:48 am EST

Mathair Cat (TN) Age: 29 - Email

I grew up with a strong pride in being American. My father is a Vietnam Vet, my ex husband is a Gulf War Vet, my brother is a Gulf War Vet (all of which were devoted Methodist and Catholic). My current husband who is pagan-is a vet as well. Even though I have great pride in my country, I am not blind to it's "behind closed door" tactics & bully like behavior-like Jade commented on his/her posting. Not all Americans are deaf, blind and dumb with pride that they are gun ho for blood-there are times that we have been sent somewhere to help and save lives, even though I don't believe we should be the "police force" for the world. I for one didn't vote for Bush and don't agree with his actions now. All though his actions after 9-11 I felt was justified. However, a war with Iraq is just insane! It will lead to no world left for us all to enjoy-no matter our religion or race. Bush is the war monger and no matter if Iraq complies or doesn't there will be a war. I don't believe it has anything to do with oil--but more for the fact that Bush's father had an assassination attempt on him from Sadam. This is about revenge and hate, pride. What ever happened to "living better is the best revenge?"
I have five children--living next to an Army base they have all ready seen the outcome of war. Friends Dad's not coming home. I don't want them to have to grow up with it as a daily routine. As a woman, a mother, wife and friend who happens to be a proud Pagan American, I don't want this war. If I could--I would try to stop it before more blood soaks her body.

I Don't Trust Dubbya But.... Jan 20th. at 9:43:08 am EST

Dragon's Blood (Amarillo, TX) Age: 28 - Email

I'd like to point a few observations out..... You see, it's not about oil..... or really politics.... It's about being pushed around. I've noticed, in recent years, that these small Arab countries have decided they would like to take on the "Big Dog" on the block. It seems as though their mind set is that if they can take the on the US then no one can stop them. What they tend to forget is that this dog has teeth and we bite back. I believe they forgot due to the years of relative peace we had before the Gulf War.

Because we're a large country, and these countries who are litterally attacking us are rather small, we're looked at as bullies. You know what? Fine. I think we need to start looking out for #1 and those that don't like us for protecting them, their way of life, and the people they love so dearly can fin for themselves. That ain't gonna happen though, we care too much not to. War is not always a good thing, but when alternatives fail before they can be tried (personally, I'd like to see Dubbya and Saddam put on boxing gloves and fight it out. lol), it's very much a needed evil. I respect our millitary and our ally forces, in peace and war time. If I were able, I would be out there with ya'll fighting.

Dragon's Blood

Comments From A Vet Jan 20th. at 10:09:57 am EST

Pestillence (USA) Age: 26 - Email

As a U.S. citizen, a former soldier and a pagan I have a few comments about those who have a descending opinion about this country and a few opinions of my own. I volunteered to defend this country not based on the fact that this country was perfect or always right but to protect those basic freedoms that make this country the place that most people on the face of this planet want to live. We have our problems as a country I will admit but name me a country on this planet that doesn't. You see for every problem you give me about this country I can give you two reasons it's better. I do believe that our president has gone way to far in the name of antiterrorism to the point of being vengeful and almost terroristic himself. Our president only has so much power though, he is not a dictator and in a couple sort years if we as a nation don't like the out come of his actions he is gone. I know it's not perfect but it's a better system than Cuba's don't you think. I will admit that when we as a nation start something we are like a bulldozer but it takes a lot to get us started because this fight with Afghanistan was fifteen years in the making. As far as our "back door" terrorism. Come on people are we that ignorant to think this is the only country on the face of the planet to do things like that I mean we have to keep up with the Jones's as it where. It's the only way to keep this place free and safe. If you don't like the way it works leave. If you are from another country please fix what is broken were you are before you tell us how to fix our problems. I did not sacrifice my body and bite my tongue on my belief because I wanted to torture myself but because in my own way I was fighting for the greater good of this country and in the belief that in the future I won't have to bite my tongue. That's the beauty of this country, one day you have no rights(nonwhites,women) and the next you do all because you wanted it to change.

Global Consequences Jan 20th. at 10:41:21 am EST

Serenity (Pennsylvania) Age: 32 - Email

Jade, I feel your anger as you type. I personally resent being pigeonholed and labeled the way you are attempting to do. Americans are not evil. Iraqis are not evil. Canadians are not evil. Terrorist acts have been committed. This is fact. But these acts were committed by governments. The common man had very little to say on the matter. How do we decide who is evil, then? Who cast the first stone? How far back do we go? People need to realize that we are a global community. And, as a global community, we have the responsibility to treat each other with tolerance and respect. Do we squabble with our neighbors? Yes, occasionally. Do we invade their homes and kill them? And, if we do, are we right to do so? And if we do, are their kin justified in seeking revenge? Where does it end? Stop the insanity. Stop the bloodshed.
We are one big family living in one big house. Let's all realize this before it is too late. How do I feel about war? My father is a Vietnam Veteran. My grandfather was a vet of WWII. My great-grandfather was a vet of WWI. My great-great-great grandfather fought in the Civil War. My grandfather died last year. He had Korsakoff's syndrome. It's a dementia brought on by chronic alcoholism. I consider him a casualty of WWII. My father suffers from severe post traumatic stress disorder and has "jungle rot" on his feet that he still suffers from. He has had skin cancers, possibly brought on by his exposure to Agent Orange in the DMZ. He suffers from horrendous nightmares from things that he saw as a 19 year old kid. If you do not announce your presence as you are coming up behind my father, you are likely to get an elbow to the face. This is courtesy of the United States Marines Corps' programming to turn my dad into a killing machine. Unfortunately, they neglected to deprogram him. I thank them for the first part. It kept my dad alive during a "police action" where we had no business being in the first place. My friends have uncles who were not so lucky. You can find their names carved in granite on the Vietnam Memorial Wall. However, he is a victim of WWII as well. Due to the stress of the "war to end all wars", my grandfather became an alcoholic. He abused all seven of his children. My sister and I are victims of the "police action" known as the Vietnam War. We were horribly abused as children. I have been diagnosed with PTSD, for the most part due to the abuse I suffered at the hands of my father as a child. These are some of the less severe consequences of war. How do I feel about war? War hurts. War leaves physical, psychological and emotional scars not only on those fortunate enough to survive, but on their children, and on their children's children. War brings nothing but pain, grief, suffering and loss; loss of life, loss of potential, loss of innocence. I say once again. Stop the insanity. Give our children a chance. Give our grandchildren a chance.

What IS It Good For? Jan 20th. at 11:10:35 am EST

amy wallen (southampton, england) Age: 22 - Email

I feel the reason why people are so sceptical about war is because we are learning that when a government, no matter which one, tells us they are going to war, we have to ask questions. In the case of the currently planned war with Iraq, there appears to be no evidence to support the claim that war is necessary. In the case of recent wars – Afghanistan, Kosovo and the first Gulf War, for example – there is evidence to suggest that these wars were not necessary.

Simply because we can vote for our president, or prime minister, or whatever, does this mean we have to keep quiet when they do something we disagree with? I hope not, because one of the hallmarks of a democracy is free speech. To say those of us opposed to our governments’ policies should leave is like saying free speech is not allowed. To say that with regard to public opinion on the war in Britain is ridiculous, because the vast majority of people here oppose the war.

I am not from the US, and I accept that the British government has plenty of problems, but a war waged by the US affects the whole world and I really do hope as a citizen of the world that I have the right to speak out against it.

I join with many across the world in saying that I utterly oppose a war on Iraq and condemn both the Bush and Blair administrations for trying to impose this war upon us and upon the innocent Iraqi people who will no doubt suffer terribly should a war take place.

Re: Jan 20th. at 11:38:20 am EST

Allison (USA) Age: 41 - Email

I agree with Jade. And I think this whole "war on terrorism" was fabricated as a cover to give Bush an excuse to incite his daddy's (another worthless leader) "continuation war" with Iraq. how long has it been since Bin Laden made the news? many months. Bush just used Bin Laden as his bitch and a distraction for cover while he worked on creating ways to start trouble with Iraq.
Bush ALLOWED that 11 September thing to happen - he had been warned by the Egyptian president about it a month or so before it happened but CHOSE to ignore it because it was his hot ticket to confrontation with Iraq - his ulterior motive. He doesn't care. He gets on TV reading scripts but it is SO plain to see his insincerity shining through. Bush is greedy and arrogant - untrustworthy - he and his whole staff have heavy oil interests. Far as I am concerned Bush has the blood of 3000 people on his hands. I have no regard for him even as a human being after that.

No, this war is stupid, unfounded and UN-NECESSARY. I do not support it and my house is one where you will certainly NOT see a USA flag displayed. I am really disgusted with this government and ashamed to call myself American.

And after he claims Iraq's oil for his own then he'll commence to trashing our environment for the sake of his own greed. It's not IRAQ that needs a new regime, it's USA that does. I have faith that the UN will curb him - USA does not run the UN and Bush thinks it does and thinks he's above the whole world and can push around any country he pleases. I'd love to see the EU take USA down about 10 pegs and real hard.

I am not one of these flag-flying t-shirt wearing suckers who blindly goes along with Bush's plan for destruction and all this hail the USA crap. I see right through him and HE is USA's worst enemy.

What a joke - a nation this big with a leader who has an IQ lower than the average(middle)school kid. It wasn't my vote that put his sorry ass in office.

Well... Jan 20th. at 12:02:52 pm EST

Dawn (Ocheyedan) Age: 20 - Email

We are not the only county to be hit be terrorists. And it always seems that things get the most uproar by society when it happens to us. We should feel the same loss when it happens in other countries. No, matter what it will be painfully complicated to pick out the bad guys. No sense in blowing up a whole country to find some terrorists. Realistically, it will never end. We don't wanna make it worse by attacking. Because all that will do is prove the point that other countries believe we are so bad. I say leave them alone. If the leader of the country flat out engages in war. I say fight back. Thats just self defense. But we can't continue to bomb countries just to find a few groups of people. Hell they need to use their heads. Most of the terroist groups are not in other countries they are in the US! And I doubt very much we would blow up our own country! The problem with the US is we always get to be to cocky. We think no one can touch us. And if they do, well we blast them. Personally I think we would save a lot of problems if we would heed warnings when they come and for Goddesssakes pull our heads out of our asses! When we let people like that go through pilot programs, and we know that they only want to learn how to fly the plain and not land it or take it off, and we don't get supsicious! Something is wrong there. Very wrong! We ignored the obvious warning signals weather out of ignorance or just plain stupidity. But the result was a horrible one. Although that is no excuse for the people who did it. We may have been able to prevent it if someone had bothered to investegate these people who trained to be pilots right in our own country.
Blessed be.

Thoughts Jan 20th. at 12:38:30 pm EST

Marquise (USA) Age: 29 - Email

I am proud to be an Pagan American, I am not proud of our President and his actions at this current time-on any issue--but this is the most important issue that I stand against. My family will not support a war with Iraq. However, I will fly the American flag over my door for those soliders who will leave their families and for those that have died or will die for this country. Because of the actions of one person-will not make me say that I am ashamed to be an American or turn my back on the men and women who provide us with freedom with their blood. Goddess Bless America and her military, may she see them safely through whatever mission they are assigned--wether we agree with it or not.

I Think... Jan 20th. at 12:43:32 pm EST

Angie (Indiana) Age: 29 - Email

Sometimes I think war is necessary. But not nearly as often as our political leaders apparently do. Such as our war against Hitler. To me, that was more than necessary. I wish we'd kicked his butt sooner and saved more lives, but I have disagreed with every war since then -- except the war on terrorism. I am not a pacifist (and please don't think that I am saying there is anything wrong with being one.There's NOT.) and I do believe that Usama Bin Laden deserves WHATEVER we chose to do to him, no matter what that might be, as well as anyone else who was directly involved in Sept. 11. However, I view the war on terrorism as completely seperate from the war on Iraq which I totally disagree with, just as I was vehemently opposed to Desert Storm. I believe that Sadaam does indeed have WOMD, but SO DOES EVERONE ELSE!!!!
We could go after him, sure. But to be fair and truly JUST we'd have to go after EVERYBODY (including ourselves). How prudent is that? Not very.
I also think that it is plain WRONG to bomb a country anymore. Our "intelligence" is SUPPOSED to be among the best in the world. So -- USE IT! Go in, get rid of Usama and his lackeys, and LEAVE THE INNOCENTS ALONE!!!! It wouldn't really be that hard, if that's what the leaders of this country chose to do, but they'd, for reasons I will NEVER understand, much rather have a full blown WAR. I am a libertarian, I guess, if I must put a label on myself. I want the liberals out of my pocketbook, and the conservatives out of my bedroom. I don't agree with most of this administration. In fact, they truly FRIGHTEN me. But, sadly, I'm not sure anyone else, of any particular party would be any better.
It would be a beautiful thing if we could all just love each other and live the way the youth of the 70's wanted us to. And I am so glad there are bright, shiny people who still believe this is possible, but I cannot be numbered among them. I don't think we can. There is too much fear of things that are different still in the world. And I think there always will be, but I love the dreamers. And I hope they can find a way to make their dream come true -- for all of us.

The Vietnam Of Our Generation? Jan 20th. at 1:00:25 pm EST

Morgan Winterfrost (Nova Scotia, Canada) Age: 34 - Email

My thoughts on this are many... and the more questions I try to answer, the more I seem to coemup with. It's not about oil? Really? Saddam has been the same SOB he was since the end of the last Gulf War. Why go after him now? If the US government thinks he's sheltering Bin Laden, then why not just accuse him of it and get it over with. Is it because of how the Iraqi citizens are starving as a result of his tyrany? That would be the pot calling the kettle black (look no further than the increasing number of homeless and social welfare recipients in North America).
One common theory among somepeople I know is that Bush needs the war to stimulate the flagging US economy.
My husband in a member of the Canadian military, and is proud to serve. Like we used to say... "you wear the green tuxedo, you dance where you're told". But this war is wrong. With so many people protesting, the US government should get the clue that the global community is not behind him.

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