The opinions posted on the Pagan Perspective pages are those of individuals and are not neccessarily shared or endorsed by the Witches' Voice inc.
Posted: Sep. 8, 2002
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Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000
The Unresolved US Election
Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?
| Reponses: There are 263 responses posted to this question.
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| Further Thoughts Come To Mind. If Things Really Do Get Genocidal In... ||Nov 11th. at 1:13:57 am UTC|
|Aedh Rua (Sterling, Illinois US) ||Age: 35 - Email |
Further thoughts come to mind. If things really do get genocidal in the United States, we might consider a couple of possibilities:
a) Pagan self-defense organizations. I don't have running around in the woods in cammo in mind, here. As a small minority, the smart thing to do is to blend in, maintain a high degree of mobility, contacts with outside allies, and a lot of firepower. Something like the French resistance in World War II might work better than macho militias. Also, a lot of Pagans are hackers. The fundies might think twice about hurting us if they knew that it would bring about a close duplicate of what people feared the Y2K crisis would be like. Funny how the threat of the apocalyptic end of civilization works to keep even fanatics friendly and honest.
b) Mass-migration to somewhere else. Not too many countries are likely to take us, but some might. Canada or Australia might be moved enough by their sense of right and wrong to take in a million or so Pagan refugees. More likely, there is probably a third world country out there somewhere which would salivate at the thought of a million Westerners who just happen to know a whole lot about really lucerative high technology.
Then there is Alaska. Total population, not more than 700K or so. And, there is nothing that the locals can do to keep American and Canadian Pagans from migrating there in any numbers they want. If 700, 000 U.S. Pagans migrate there, we become half the population, probably more than enough to reduce any fundie persecution efforts to comical impotence. Add a few more of us (I think the 700K estimate of the U.S. Pagan population is rather low, and there are plenty of Canadian Pagans, as well), and we are the majority. I do not have secession in mind, here. Instead ask yourself this, how much effect would an anti-Mormon persecution have in Utah?
The American political system is Federalist. That means that localities, particularly states, have a LOT of power. And Republican fiscal policies are likely to make that more the case, and not less. The fact is that, even in the rather centralist American state of the present day, there is not a whole lot the Feds can do if the people of a state wish to quietly and discretely practise their own lifestyle. There are not enough Federal police, and probably not enough troops, to patrol somewhere the size of Alaska with very much efficiency. If we settle in, become local citizens, police, and town council members, the Feds will be in the weird position of needing to depend on Pagans to enforce their laws.
While some people have advocated a Pagan homeland, we are not really in a position to make that happen. But, it is possible to run a part of the United States as a de-facto separate country, even if we remain legally a part of the U.S.
To pull this off would require more than just getting into our cars and driving, of course. We would need to have Pagans on the ground in Alaska who would be willing to help other Pagans locate job leads and homes. We would need a good deal of money, once the migration got going, to establish Pagan businesses and settlements. But, the amount of money I am talking about is not in the billions of dollars. It could be done with donations, especially from, say, certain very wealthy Pagan female rock stars who live in England and dye their hair red (not that I have anyone in particular in mind, are you listening, Tori?). A certain amount of kaletia, a Gaulish word meaning approximately "endurance" or "guts", would also help. We may have to be cold and hungry for a while, but if things get really hot under Bush, I would suggest that it would be well worth it.
We are not a numerous people, and nobody loves us....except maybe the Gods, which is more than enough.
| My Personal Feelings... Well, It's Depressing That So Many People I Know... ||Nov 11th. at 1:18:56 am UTC|
|Naomi Armitage (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania US) ||Age: 20 - Email |
My personal feelings...
Well, it's depressing that so many people I know see voting for the two major parties as voting for the 'lesser of two evils'. That's not what I think our forefathers had in mind when creating a democracy. But our society seems to ignore the existence of multiple parties while b****ing about the lack of choice.
I think with so many people my age beginning to be aware of the government and politics as something that plays a huge part in our lives, there will be changes in the processes. Instead of 'bipartisan' things will be 'multipartisan', and more people will be making educated choices at the polls.
I voted Nader...I didn't care that people were saying "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush." or that he didn't have a snowflake's chance in Hades...I know that my vote is going to help him have a better chance for their party next time.
| As Someone Who Is Employed By A Company That Takes Public Opinion... ||Nov 11th. at 3:23:03 am UTC|
|Brandy (Lehigh Acres, Florida US) ||Age: 25 - Email |
As someone who is employed by a company that takes public opinion surveys I knew the election was going to be very close. No one person in this country could have predicted this out come. At first I was amazed and thought how wonderfull it was to see democracy working at its finest. That changed quickly when the two candidates and their campaign advisors etcetera started acting more like preschoolers in bad need of naps.
I did vote, though I did not vote for a major party candidate. I voted for Harry Browne who was the Libertarian presidential candidate.Which most people would say is throwing my vote away, but to me as long as I vote my conscience its never a throw away vote.
The whole ballot issue in West Palm really disturbs me as well as makes me embarrassed to be a Floridian. Its plain and simple, you have a candidates name, you have a number with an arrow next to it. The arrow points to the hole, you take the pin and punch the hole next to the arrow next to the number next to your candidate. Why is this a problem ? If you believe in democracy and you are serious about voting then take the time to pay attention to what the heck you are doing. If you are unsure ask the people at your polling place who are paid to help you. The county I live in used the same form of ballot a few years ago and we had no problems with it. What the heck made some of these people think they could punch two holes and expect the counter to know what they meant? Not all of us can read your minds people.
This election has turned into a circus.The ring leaders are Gore and Bush and the clowns are the people who are swallowing this mess spewed by the two parties. In the end it will affect all communities not just the Pagan communities. The only solution I can think of that would solve this problem is to hold another election. Forget about Bush and Gore , lets get the candidates who lost the primaries and ALL the third party candidates together for a mega-debate and have a re-election based on those choices.Maybe , just maybe we can find a leader who is worthy of our country and our vote.
| I Voted For Nader, Because For Once I Wanted To Vote *for... ||Nov 11th. at 3:37:38 am UTC|
|Secular Pagan (Minneapolis, Minnesota US) ||Age: 37 - Email |
I voted for Nader, because for once I wanted to vote *for* someone I truly supported, rather than playing the two-party-system "lesser of two evils" game. And despite the Nader-voter scapegoating going on right now, I stand by that vote, and am glad that I cast it. Face it, both Bush and Gore are so desperately butt-kissing centrist "whichever way the wind is blowing to land me in the White House, " neither one is going to do anything too extremely anything. This has good as well as bad aspects, of course. ;-) But talk of either one causing revolution, whether a beneficial revolution or a scary revolution, just isn't in line with the primary fact about both of them: They are mainly about themselves, and winning votes.
As for the present mess, I would rather see it handled fairly (as fair as anyone can make it at this point) than have either one hurrying to concede the election or to start moving their bottle-cap collections and pet rocks into 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Short-circuiting democracy in the name of expediency would *not* be "for the good of the country."
| Should Bush End Up In The Oval Office, I Forsee A Supreme... ||Nov 11th. at 3:41:21 am UTC|
|icedancer (san diego, California US) ||Age: 30 |
Should Bush end up in the Oval Office, I forsee a Supreme Court that will move towards Conservatism (and not the nice environmental kind) - "Pro-life, " "Christian" values in schools, and pro-business versus protecting Gaea. Gore would not be like this and Nader ever less so - although Nader's administration would be feeble because he would have no Congressional support. Since listening to Brown, I have come to associate the Libertarians with the Anarchists of the 1880's and 1890's. In my mind's eye, Gore seems the most responsive the our community and more importantly, our ideals.
| Yes I Voted For The Lesser Of 2 Evils. My Feeling Is... ||Nov 11th. at 9:20:36 am UTC|
|Linda (Dayton, Ohio US) ||Age: 45 - Email |
Yes I voted for the lesser of 2 evils. My feeling is the ballots should have been straight-line ballots, thus there would have been no confusion. If any concession should be made, its Bush having enough honesty and intergety to admit something was screwy, even Buchnan did that! We are now a country divided--and Bush has his militia in place thru the NRA. As pagans, if Bush prevails, we as well as others of the non-Christian faiths can look foward to the burning times again. Shrub Jr. is another Hilter in action!
| I Voted For Al Gore. The Poltical Wrangling Is A Demonstration Of... ||Nov 11th. at 10:15:31 am UTC|
|Walter (Chicago, Illinois US) ||Age: 37 - Email |
I voted for Al Gore. The poltical wrangling is a demonstration of everything wrong with the political situation in this country. I don't think either candidate should concede until every vote has been counted since it is so close. Neither candidate will be able to bring this country together adn no matter who wins, the 43rd president of the United States will be a political "bastard" with an illegitimate administration. Because of this, I am now hoping George Bush wins. The best thing that could happen to the Pagan community would be for George Bush to declare Paganism an illegitimate religion and ban it from the military when his administration is illegitmate. Nothing could ever legitimze Pagan religions more! If Gore wins, we could be looking at a long dark religious right nightmare four years down the road.
| Bush Based Alot Of His Platform On Being An Honest Man. If... ||Nov 11th. at 10:32:41 am UTC|
|Wolfpup (Yacolt, Washington US) ||Age: 36 |
Bush based alot of his platform on being an honest man. If this were true, he wouln't accept the office unless the election was truly won by him. The fact that he is calling Gore a sore loser sounds more like a playground argument instead of an election. Bush should call for a re-vote in Florida since 19, 000 votes were tossed out, so he could win HONESTLY like he has professed himself to be for the last year.
| I Voted For Gore Because Of The Situtation On The Supreme Court... ||Nov 11th. at 10:40:25 am UTC|
|Sunshine (Denver, Colorado US) ||Age: 30 |
I voted for Gore because of the situtation on the supreme court. I am worried that if Bush gets in he will make the Supreme Court more conserative. With the possiblity of Roe v Wade, and Prayer in Church being under taken under a more conserative court would take those rights away or expand those rights to be included in the seperation of Church and State. I don't know what is going come out of the situation in Florida but, I do beleive an interesting windfall will come out of this situation in Florida. I do hope that Gore will come out on top but unfortunely I feel Bush will win. I do not know what will happen but I believe Gore is coming out on top in the "Gentlemen's" war.
| As A Canadian, And Our Own Elections Running Right Now, It's Getting... ||Nov 11th. at 10:53:56 am UTC|
|Veshka Valkyrie (Sudbury, Ontario CA) ||Age: 22 - Email |
As a Canadian, and our own elections running right now, it's getting really hard to try to keep up with our own political race with this going on in the States. Now, since I can't get my hands on all the information, tv programming, and other pieces of reference that the Americans can for their Presidential election, I don't have all the facts when it comes to this. But if there's anything I do know, is that both of the major candidates have their bad points and both of them are far from who I would want running my country. At least we have 3 major parties... So it's the lesser of three evils here. Doesn't help nonetheless come voting day.
But anti-Pagan and anti-gay statments, far from ecological views on raising the economy, and plans for cutting social programs with an oversided machette to "help us all"... Plus, their childishness with the recount (And I for one was astonished to hear Buchannan say "Yes, people probably voted for me by mistake and I don't feel good knowing I have votes that I didn't deserve")... In all honesty, I think I would have just moved to another country :)
If this is the kind of bs (excuse my French) that the Americans are going to be looking forward to for the next 4 years, which seems to be evidant with the actions since November 7th, I feel sorry for you all. It's not going to be good, for all of us, espcially those in communities where both of the major candidates have snubbed, turned away from or downright ignored. Even Canada will feel the impact. But, just keep telling yourself... It's only 4 years... 4 years isn't really a long time.
| I Voted For Gore As The Lesser Of 2 Evils, I Felt... ||Nov 11th. at 11:03:59 am UTC|
|Stephanie (New Orleans, Louisiana US) ||Age: 45 |
I voted for Gore as the lesser of 2 evils, I felt that voting for a 3rd party candidate was a vote for Bush. For those of us that are sick of the 2 party system, it is necessary for us to be realistic about it. Before a 3rd party candidate ever gets elected to the Presidency, there will have to be many more 3rd party folks winning offices on local and state levels. We can work toward that after this election.
As to now, whoever gets in the White House will have 4 years of complete grid-lock. The House and Senate are almost equally divided and there will be much animosity by the opposite party of whoever gets in. This president will be a lame-duck president for 4 years with no chance for re-election. The only place such a president could possibly be effective would be in foreign policy. Bush could be devastating in this area. He doesn't even understand the various cultures in our country, much less other countries.
The really good thing about this election is that our electoral system will hopefully be brought into the 21st century. The electoral college will either be abolished or re-vamped with the delegates having to vote the people of their state. (I was appalled when I learned that 26 states gave the delegates the option of voting their choice instead of the people's choice). The idea that some counties are still "punching holes" in ballots in the year 2000 is ludicrous, I'm sure that will be updated. The scrutiny applied to this election will bring about much needed winds of change.
As for us, if Bush gets in he will not be able to do the damage to us that he could've done had he won in a landslide. Our military Pagans will be in much more danger, so we need to fight for their rights. Our time is NOW, this is it. As many as can come out of the broom closet, need to. We need to get active politically as well as in community service. Our time is now.
| Greetings No I Didn't Vote. I Wasn't Able To Make It To... ||Nov 11th. at 12:08:26 pm UTC|
|Matthew J. Lee (Dallas, Texas US) ||Age: 33 - Email |
No I didn't vote. I wasn't able to make it to where I'm registered and truthfully, I don't even care who wins. All this B.S. going on in Florida is ridiculous. Yes the people have a right to vote for the person of their choice. They also have the resposibility to vote, Yet with that you have the moral obligation to us that vote wisely and responsibily, if you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. They should count and certify under the current laws. Then the loser should bow out gracefully and supportive of the winner. Yet the winner needs to take in the fact he doesn't have a distinct majority.
So fighting it out in courts will do nothing but divide the nation and create apathy among the people. Along with riddicule among other Nations Which brings us to the greatest chance we'll have to come together as a nation and people. Which we should use and not let it pass us by. You think Imight be crazy to say that then let me explain.
1-Neither house has a clear majority they're pretty much evenly split nothing will be able to get done with out coming together and making compromises for the good of the country. We all know what will happen if they don't, and that I don't want to contemplate. But guess what happens when they do, you got it. It will be hard at first but with all things it will get easier when it becomes repetitive, then it will become the norm for Congress and should start flowing down to everything else.
2- The President will not have a distinct majority, just about half the country voted against him. If he's as smart as they want us to believe, He'll call for the country to unite together and find a middle ground for no one has the majority to push their dogma upon the people. For his job is to lead the people. Therefore he must remain above the mess and urge cooperation with out bias or party rhetoric.
3- We are the greatest democracy in the world. Other countrys are wacthing and questioning our system if it's as good as it realy made out to be. So since we're Americans and arrogantly so we will not let are political system be made out as a farce to be ridiculed or break down to anarchy as some have speculated.
Which brings me to the quetion on how this effects the Pagan community. First of all that comes to mind is a phrase my High Priestess Sylvia Bogart taught me from the beginning, WITH INFINITE INTELLIGENCE WE ARE ONE. Secondly is what Maeven Eller Of Betwixt & Between always says the INTER-NET SHOULD BE USED AS A TOOL AND NOT A WEAPON. With them two thoughts in mind and the partys so evenly split we can effectively unite and lead the charge to common ground.But first we have to unite as a community. Put aside diffrences of Traditions and so force to come together as a pagan community. If we don't we won't have a loud enought voice to be heard in the coming winds of change. We have an opportunity like never before so lets come together.
NEVER AGAIN THE BURNING TIMES SURVIVES AS MORE THEN A MANTRA AS LONG AS IT'S DEFENDED BY DEED.
Rev. Matthew J. Lee
H.P. Church of the Old Ways
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