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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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110. Whatís Your Favorite Element? - [119]

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105. Are Pagans TOO Individualistic? - [56]

104. Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq? - [258]

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2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 19,110,876  

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Reponses: 263

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Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

I Voted For Gore As The Lesser Of 2 Evils, I Felt... Nov 11th. at 11:03:59 am EST

Stephanie (New Orleans, Louisiana US) Age: 45

I voted for Gore as the lesser of 2 evils, I felt that voting for a 3rd party candidate was a vote for Bush. For those of us that are sick of the 2 party system, it is necessary for us to be realistic about it. Before a 3rd party candidate ever gets elected to the Presidency, there will have to be many more 3rd party folks winning offices on local and state levels. We can work toward that after this election.

As to now, whoever gets in the White House will have 4 years of complete grid-lock. The House and Senate are almost equally divided and there will be much animosity by the opposite party of whoever gets in. This president will be a lame-duck president for 4 years with no chance for re-election. The only place such a president could possibly be effective would be in foreign policy. Bush could be devastating in this area. He doesn't even understand the various cultures in our country, much less other countries.

The really good thing about this election is that our electoral system will hopefully be brought into the 21st century. The electoral college will either be abolished or re-vamped with the delegates having to vote the people of their state. (I was appalled when I learned that 26 states gave the delegates the option of voting their choice instead of the people's choice). The idea that some counties are still "punching holes" in ballots in the year 2000 is ludicrous, I'm sure that will be updated. The scrutiny applied to this election will bring about much needed winds of change.

As for us, if Bush gets in he will not be able to do the damage to us that he could've done had he won in a landslide. Our military Pagans will be in much more danger, so we need to fight for their rights. Our time is NOW, this is it. As many as can come out of the broom closet, need to. We need to get active politically as well as in community service. Our time is now.

Greetings No I Didn't Vote. I Wasn't Able To Make It To... Nov 11th. at 12:08:26 pm EST

Matthew J. Lee (Dallas, Texas US) Age: 33 - Email


No I didn't vote. I wasn't able to make it to where I'm registered and truthfully, I don't even care who wins. All this B.S. going on in Florida is ridiculous. Yes the people have a right to vote for the person of their choice. They also have the resposibility to vote, Yet with that you have the moral obligation to us that vote wisely and responsibily, if you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. They should count and certify under the current laws. Then the loser should bow out gracefully and supportive of the winner. Yet the winner needs to take in the fact he doesn't have a distinct majority.

So fighting it out in courts will do nothing but divide the nation and create apathy among the people. Along with riddicule among other Nations Which brings us to the greatest chance we'll have to come together as a nation and people. Which we should use and not let it pass us by. You think Imight be crazy to say that then let me explain.

1-Neither house has a clear majority they're pretty much evenly split nothing will be able to get done with out coming together and making compromises for the good of the country. We all know what will happen if they don't, and that I don't want to contemplate. But guess what happens when they do, you got it. It will be hard at first but with all things it will get easier when it becomes repetitive, then it will become the norm for Congress and should start flowing down to everything else.
2- The President will not have a distinct majority, just about half the country voted against him. If he's as smart as they want us to believe, He'll call for the country to unite together and find a middle ground for no one has the majority to push their dogma upon the people. For his job is to lead the people. Therefore he must remain above the mess and urge cooperation with out bias or party rhetoric.

3- We are the greatest democracy in the world. Other countrys are wacthing and questioning our system if it's as good as it realy made out to be. So since we're Americans and arrogantly so we will not let are political system be made out as a farce to be ridiculed or break down to anarchy as some have speculated.

Which brings me to the quetion on how this effects the Pagan community. First of all that comes to mind is a phrase my High Priestess Sylvia Bogart taught me from the beginning, WITH INFINITE INTELLIGENCE WE ARE ONE. Secondly is what Maeven Eller Of Betwixt & Between always says the INTER-NET SHOULD BE USED AS A TOOL AND NOT A WEAPON. With them two thoughts in mind and the partys so evenly split we can effectively unite and lead the charge to common ground.But first we have to unite as a community. Put aside diffrences of Traditions and so force to come together as a pagan community. If we don't we won't have a loud enought voice to be heard in the coming winds of change. We have an opportunity like never before so lets come together.


Blessed Be
Rev. Matthew J. Lee
H.P. Church of the Old Ways

I Voted For Gore. I Watched The Election Closely From The Time... Nov 11th. at 12:57:14 pm EST

Kelly Eagle (Albuquerque, New Mexico US) Age: 41 - Email

I voted for Gore. I watched the election closely from the time I got home from work until I went to bed at 12:30am, crying hysterically because Bush had been declared the next president. I kept waking up praying, "Please, Dewey Beats Truman!" I woke up Wednesday to find this mess going on, a slim hope. I didn't like Bush Sr., and can't stand Shrub. I look at him and see the anti-choice, anti-environment, anti-gay, anti-religious freedom, anti-poor redneck attitudes I have had to put up with for decades. Daddy and his cronies put him in office in Texas (much to the regret of my Libertarian 2 sisters and 1 brother in Austin), he's done a crappy job there (after all, what other job has he ever held?) and his Bubba brother has quite conveniently made sure **only** the Democratic majority areas of "his" state have been disenfranchised.

I find it just **too** convenient a "coincidence" that the 19, 000 thrown-out votes and the 3, 000 "Buchanan" votes were all in one strongly Democratic county which, if left Democratic, would have pushed Gore over the top to presidential victory. The (admittedly unproven) stories of people being turned away from the polls and roadblocks preventing people from even arriving, and people standing in line for hours being shut out are absolutely horrendous. Bubba Jeb promised his brother was going to get Florida's 25, come hell or high water, and I have no doubt he and Daddy's CIA retirees rigged at least some of those things.

Having read what I've written, I know this sounds like a hateful diatribe, but really, just feels like "truth be told." I know Gore isn't the "perfect" candidate, and there were probably some "not quite clean" activities from his camp as well. But the blatant arrogant manner in which Bush's activities took place puts it right up there with Watergate as a "how stupid do they think we are" move.

One point I haven't seen addressed here at all is the "do as we say, not as we do" attitude. The US is constantly sending "observers" and "advisors" to third-world countries demanding that elections be re-done because they weren't done to "our" standards of fairness. If this situation had taken place in one of those "beginner democracies" the US government would be sitting on its high horse screaming for a re-vote. Shouldn't we act the way we tell the rest of the world is the "proper" way? A revote for the affected counties or for the entire state, "observed" by the national guard if necessary!

Another arrogant point being repeated ad nauseum by the Republicans is that, "If they made a mistake on their ballot, they should have asked for another one. EVERYONE knows that!" Excuse me? I may be admitting to stupidity here, but I've voted since 1976 and have NEVER ONCE been told, in civics class or at the polls, that if a mistake were made on a ballot you can ask for another one. I was always under the impression that you get one, and one only. How many of those 19, 000 were under the same impression? How many across the country were under the same impression?

Yes, the country's polarized. We've known that for a long time. Yes, the Congress will be deadlocked for the next two years. But, with a Republican in the White House, who'se to say Congress would stay deadlocked in 2002? Do we really want an ultra-conservative Republican majority with an ultra-conservative Republican president selecting the new Supreme Court justices? Too many issues nowadays -- religious, economic, social, and political -- are settled in those chambers for us not to live in terror of that occurance.

The last time I was even moderately politically active was 1980. (Ok, I admit, I was young and still registered my daddy's party - Republican!) If Shrub comes out on top on this one, I searched my soul to find out what the Goddess meant by it. The only thing I could come up with was that She wants us all to get off our complacent duffs and start being more involved in the process. No longer can we say, "We have our court-upheld rights, so there." Our court-upheld rights can be taken away, apparently, if the fundies want it bad enough. And, believe me, as one surrounded by them, THEY DO! They consider it a mandate from "GOD" that they wipe out all opposition, regardless of "rights." Rights are reserved for the religiously, politically, sexually, socially, monetarily correct.

And I haven't even **touched** on the mess here in New Mexico. But that's par for the course here, too. Bubba politics rule! Our Roundhouse (the State legislature building) is a sight to behold!

Ok, enough is enough. Like most of us, I could go on all day!

Blessed be, and good luck to us all!

Greetings All. Kelly Eagle, You Were Just So Eloquent, And “right-on” In... Nov 11th. at 1:32:49 pm EST

Raven (Johannesburg, South Africa) Age: 52 - Email

Greetings All. Kelly Eagle, you were just so eloquent, and "right-on" in your post that I really don't need to add much. I just ask that everyone re-read it.

I am very curious and befuddled why Witches across America, and especially the ones in Florida aren't "stirring their cauldrons" to preserve their religious freedoms. You all have worked SO HARD to advance them over the last few decades.

Okay, here’s a good one. There were three men in a bar…..No, wait that will be FOUR men BEHIND the bar—the Supreme Court Bar, that is---making decisions that will affect all of us for the next 25 to 30 years.

I voted for the Gore ticket, if for no other reason than to keep someone who does not recognize Witchcraft or the religion of the Wise out of the Oval Office. To think the American Court system could soon be populated with "Cotton Mathers" is almost too much to take in. And anyone who doesn’t think what transpires on the Supreme Court of the United States of America won’t have a ‘trickle down affect’ on lawyers across the nation is sadly mistaken.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead

Occasionally, in the course of human events there have been times when Witches have come together to 'correct' or 'adjust' matters that have gone horribly awry. One occasion that comes quickly to my mind is when the Witches gathered to repel Hitler from crossing the English Channel. I, myself, felt that Newt Gingrich and Kenneth Starr needed to be 'dealt' with, and I felt justified in doing what needed to be done to keep them from harming others and my country. I will not hesitate to do the same if I observe gross malfeasance such as starting ‘illegal’ wars, or attempting to abolish my right to worship as I please, or if the new administration purports any other nefarious acts. It isn't something I relish, but I will. By the way, one doesn't necessarily have to harm someone to get them ‘out of the way’ or keep them from harming others. How many of you (Witches) hasn’t gotten someone 'promoted' just to get them away from you for your own protection, or the protection of someone you love? Hmmm? One cannot "heal" a disease without doing injury to something, whether it is a parasite, cancer cell, or ‘what-have-you’. The gods/goddesses give us (entrust us with our) life and it is up to us to preserve that life and defend it, period. They give us herbs to heal and skills to protect. If the Bush/Cheney ticket wins, Witches, Pagans, et al are going to have their 'cauldrons full' for the next 4-8 years, and I suspect there will be a lot of "healing" spells woven into the tapestry of the Universe.---Brightest Blessings, Raven

Hi Kelly Eagle. It's Raven Again. I Forgot To Mention Two Things... Nov 11th. at 2:02:23 pm EST

Raven (Johannesburg, South Africa) Age: 52 - Email

Hi Kelly Eagle. It's Raven again. I forgot to mention two things relating to a couple of issues you addressed.
1: There are people who said they had asked for a new ballot when they realized they had inadvertently voted for Buchanan, and weren't given one. Now that is extremely interesting, isn't it? I thought you only got one shot at voting as well, but apparently these people knew they could ask for a new ballot and after requesting one, were denied. This is just one of the reasons I believe the Democrats should pursue this matter in the courts.
2: You were wondering what the Goddess had in mind? It's my opinion that she is giving us (Witches) as reprieve and that we are supposed to "stir our cauldrons" to get the result that will preserve our religious rights and the right to worship HER as we choose. Do you think so, too? Brightest Blessings, Raven

With The Hand Recounts Started Two Things Are True - Gore Wants The... Nov 11th. at 2:17:40 pm EST

Andraste (New york, New York US) Age: 35

With the hand recounts started two things are true -

Gore wants the recount to go ahead because he might win.
Bush does not want the recount to go ahead because Gore might win.

Personally I can't stand Bush both because of his policies, which I hardly need to reapeat :o) and because i think he's a deeply upleasant and untrustworthy individual. Nader is a traitor to the environmental movement and I agree totally with what the head of the Sierra Club said about, I can't repost it here because he used a naughty word ;o)

Whatever the outcome it's clear that the richest nation in the world needs to invest in some up to date and WORKING voting equipment ! The sloppy and careless attitude towards spoilt votes, lost ballots etc it's totally unacceptable.


p.s. you're all invited, no matter who you voted for ;o) to to discuss the election and what we can do afterwards, whatever the result, to protect our rights, the environment and other issues of pagan concern.

I Voted Fro Bush... I Realize That He Might Not Have A... Nov 11th. at 2:44:06 pm EST

Cerino (Euclid, Ohio US) Age: 27 - Email

I voted fro Bush...
I realize that he might not have a strong a stance on the enviromental issue as Gore, but he will uphold the constitution. The Clinton/Gore administration has done nothing in 8 years to uphold the constitution. They have sought to take away our rights... The second amendment for instance. Not to mention the first..With Lieberman being on the PTC council. That is an organization that feels they have the right to take away our rights to chose what we watch and listen to... and they have attacked shows such as Buffy the vampire slayer and Sabrina the Teenage Witch.. I will never vote democrat..ever. Neither candidate is a Wiccan, so that does not even come into play..I am sure that both look at witchcaraft as an evil entity, but Bush will definitely uphold our rights in the constitution and that includes the 1st amendment.

Hiya, It's Me Again. After Reading Through Some Of The Many Posts... Nov 11th. at 2:53:14 pm EST

Dimitri Kovarkova (Waco, Texas US) Age: 30 - Email


It's me again. After reading through some of the many posts here, I noticed a theme building: What is She trying to tell us? As good little Pagans/Wiccans most of us believe in karma and that all things happen with a lesson attached to them. I think that's what's going through many of our heads.

The only answer I can come up with is that we must become more vigilant and more active than ever. There has never been a better time to be a Witch. The Church has apologized for the Burning Times, religious tolerance is the norm, and interest in nature oriented religions is on the rise around the world. But, I think She is trying to remind us that we must earn it to keep it.

I think that it is time for us Pagans to become more watchful and more active in our country. In any way possible, we must support institutions and organizations that will support the ideals of the Goddess and protect our home the Earth.

Though I know not everyone likes Ralph Nader, I think most of you will agree when he said, "If you don't fight against politics, then politics will fight against you."

Who Did I Vote For? Nither, Yet I Did Want To Vote... Nov 11th. at 3:09:11 pm EST

MoonWizard (Washington , District of Columbia US) Age: 22 - Email

Who did I vote for? Nither, yet I did want to vote for Gore, he just bit better than bush. Right now as being a Witch. It is hard to follow politics, yet it does have effect on our future with our children. I wish it was in our hands, but it not. This whole fisco thing that happening in Florida is for a reason. I do strongly believe it has to do with the Fates playing with our future. However, I have bad gut feeling that Bush will win. It doesn't matter who does win. What matters is as we come into one community, we can make real changes with or without the new presz. of america. That what I think of the whole thing.

Blessed Be,

The Bush Camp Feels Vice President Gore Should Forget About The Voting... Nov 11th. at 3:47:42 pm EST

Rich K (Summit, New Jersey US) Age: 36 - Email

The Bush camp feels Vice President Gore should forget about the voting problems in Florida and concede. I strongly disagree.

It should be noted that the United States sometimes sends observers to other countries to oversee elections, particularly in countries with military regimes that have no chance of a fair election. How hypocritical would it be for us to dismiss an election problem of our own on this scale when leaders of our country are never hesitant to make allegations of fraud and intimidation in the elections of other countries?

George W. Bush highlighted one specific selling point during his entire campaign. He claims to be a man of moral character who says he will restore honor and integrity to the White House. If that's true, should he not encourage this kind of inquiry? If he does, then he indeed shows himself as the candidate he was selling us during his campaign. If he does not, then he is just the kind of man who he painted enemies as; merely another politician ruled by blind ambition.

If Bush were truly the man of integrity he claimed to be, he would not want his presidency to begin with the dark cloud of scandal hovering over it. Was not the theme of his campaign just the opposite?

Pat Buchanan, the Reform Party candidate who is an Evangelical Christian, stated outright that if he got votes that he should not have gotten, then he did not want them. If Bush is truly a man of similar moral fortitude, should we not expect Governor Bush - who signed a proclamation that made June 10, 2000 Jesus Day - to also travel a similar high moral road that his Evangelical Christian opponent is claiming?

Instead of acknowledging that the American people are outraged by the appearance of election hijacking, instead of taking this opportunity to really show his moral fiber to his fellow Americans and the world community, he accuses Vice President Gore of being a sore loser. Is this what Bush means when he says he will restore honor and integrity to the White House? Is this how he intends to show he is "a uniter, not a divider"?

To illustrate - instant replay in the NFL works like this. If a call on the field is to be challenged, the head coach who wants the play reviewed will throw a red flag onto the field. If the call is not reversed, then the challenge is lost and it costs the team a time-out.

The head coach relies on other coaches in a stadium box who can see the play from different camera angles. They can relay via radio to the head coach whether or not the play should be challenged. In that time, the opposing team gets together for a quick offensive play to minimize the amount of time the coaches in the booth have to review the play. Once the new play is initiated by the opposing team, the play in question can no longer be reviewed.

Bush knows politics, he knows how to sell himself, and he damn sure knows his football.

He is relying on short memories, one of our nation's most plentiful resources. He knows this will be forgotten about in 4 years when he runs for re-election. If it's brought up again, he can always cry dirty pool by the so-called "liberal media", or merely that he is being persecuted by Democrats seeking retribution for the conservatives having lopped off Clinton's coattails for this election.

The score can't change once the game is over. Bush badly wants the final gun to go off so he can run into the locker room and celebrate, no doubt spraying political rewards like so much champagne.

If only this were just a game.

It's Clear Bush Won The Election The Way We Have Our Government... Nov 11th. at 3:58:00 pm EST

Tanais (Spokane, Washington US) Age: 20

It's clear Bush won the election the way we have our government set up if no further actions take place. The Democratic party is whining, and maybe rightfully so, about misballoting and absentee votes. Florida isn't the only state with controversy with this election. My home state of Washington technically could still go either way once the absentee ballots are done. Quite honestly I don't care who is the next president anymore. The real focus should be on the chairs in the house and senate. Yes the president has lots of power, but with the senate and house so closely cut down the middle, neither Bush or Gore will get anything done. Yes, we have a republican senate and a republican house but politics isn't as partisan as most would like to think. Forget about Roe v. Wade it won't be overturned even if Bush is in office. The whole issue about pagans in the military again won't be that much an issue. Whoever is president will have to become bipartisan and quickly and also will have to make some very smart decisions. This has been one of the closest elections since Taft or Kennedy were elected president. The entire country is going to be watching Bush or Gore extremely close and if they screw up even the slightest bit, they might as well forget running for re-election in 2004. As far as the troubles in the middle east, same thing applies. Screw up just the tiniest bit and forget re-election. To summarize my little ranting here, the next four years are going to be virtually uneventful as far as drastic changes in this country no matter who is president.

As A Canadian I Am Personally Dismayed By The Possibility Of North... Nov 11th. at 4:05:15 pm EST

Doug (Vancouver, British Columbia CA) Age: 39 - Email

As a Canadian I am personally dismayed by the possibility of North America electing two right-wing leaders in the same month.

Stockwell Day, the Canadian Alliance party leader and potential PM, is the former finance minister of Alberta, (Canada's answer to Texas--cowboys, lots of petro-dollars, etc.), and shares many of the same values as Bush with respect to abortion, gay rights and down-home christianity. Indeed if both are elected they are quite likely to become good buddies, similar to Brian Mulroney and George W's dad.

Nevertheless, I will NOT give in to the politics of fear practiced by the Canadian Liberal party (currently in power, and similar to center-right Democrats). They are proclaiming loudly to anyone who will listen that a vote for anyone other than a Liberal candidate is a vote for Stockwell Day, a tax cut for the rich, national referenda on abortion, capital punishment (which is currently illegal), etc.

Canada has 4 parties with something close to a national power-base, and a 5th with an explicit Quebec seperatist agenda. This can at times lead to deadlocks, and the necessity of coalition-building in parliament, (which is also the source of our executive branch), but overall the situation is healthy.

Despite the current cynicism about the political process in my country, I feel that multi-party representation at all levels of govt. is the best form of representative democracy, (and the most likely situation in which cynicism and non-participation are dispelled).

So I commend those Americans who had the courage to vote for the candidate of their choice, rather than giving in to fear and casting a vote AGAINST a front-running candidate. The results may not be to your liking now, but in the long-term your democracy will be healthier for it. Eventually you, (or people who believe as you do), will be represented....

To those on the left who voted for Nadar, and those on the right who supported Browne, keep the faith, and don't let anyone tell you that you've wasted your vote.


PS: For those Canadians interested, I'm in a riding with an excellent NDP candidate, and I'll be voting for her. However, in a different riding I would likely vote I would've if I were American.

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