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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,722,926  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 263

Lurker/Post Ratio: 124 to 1

Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Hiya, It's Me Again. After Reading Through Some Of The Many Posts... Nov 11th. at 2:53:14 pm UTC

Dimitri Kovarkova (Waco, Texas US) Age: 30 - Email


Hiya,

It's me again. After reading through some of the many posts here, I noticed a theme building: What is She trying to tell us? As good little Pagans/Wiccans most of us believe in karma and that all things happen with a lesson attached to them. I think that's what's going through many of our heads.

The only answer I can come up with is that we must become more vigilant and more active than ever. There has never been a better time to be a Witch. The Church has apologized for the Burning Times, religious tolerance is the norm, and interest in nature oriented religions is on the rise around the world. But, I think She is trying to remind us that we must earn it to keep it.

I think that it is time for us Pagans to become more watchful and more active in our country. In any way possible, we must support institutions and organizations that will support the ideals of the Goddess and protect our home the Earth.

Though I know not everyone likes Ralph Nader, I think most of you will agree when he said, "If you don't fight against politics, then politics will fight against you."


Who Did I Vote For? Nither, Yet I Did Want To Vote... Nov 11th. at 3:09:11 pm UTC

MoonWizard (Washington , District of Columbia US) Age: 22 - Email


Who did I vote for? Nither, yet I did want to vote for Gore, he just bit better than bush. Right now as being a Witch. It is hard to follow politics, yet it does have effect on our future with our children. I wish it was in our hands, but it not. This whole fisco thing that happening in Florida is for a reason. I do strongly believe it has to do with the Fates playing with our future. However, I have bad gut feeling that Bush will win. It doesn't matter who does win. What matters is as we come into one community, we can make real changes with or without the new presz. of america. That what I think of the whole thing.

Blessed Be,
MoonWizard..


The Bush Camp Feels Vice President Gore Should Forget About The Voting... Nov 11th. at 3:47:42 pm UTC

Rich K (Summit, New Jersey US) Age: 36 - Email


The Bush camp feels Vice President Gore should forget about the voting problems in Florida and concede. I strongly disagree.

It should be noted that the United States sometimes sends observers to other countries to oversee elections, particularly in countries with military regimes that have no chance of a fair election. How hypocritical would it be for us to dismiss an election problem of our own on this scale when leaders of our country are never hesitant to make allegations of fraud and intimidation in the elections of other countries?

George W. Bush highlighted one specific selling point during his entire campaign. He claims to be a man of moral character who says he will restore honor and integrity to the White House. If that's true, should he not encourage this kind of inquiry? If he does, then he indeed shows himself as the candidate he was selling us during his campaign. If he does not, then he is just the kind of man who he painted enemies as; merely another politician ruled by blind ambition.

If Bush were truly the man of integrity he claimed to be, he would not want his presidency to begin with the dark cloud of scandal hovering over it. Was not the theme of his campaign just the opposite?

Pat Buchanan, the Reform Party candidate who is an Evangelical Christian, stated outright that if he got votes that he should not have gotten, then he did not want them. If Bush is truly a man of similar moral fortitude, should we not expect Governor Bush - who signed a proclamation that made June 10, 2000 Jesus Day - to also travel a similar high moral road that his Evangelical Christian opponent is claiming?

Instead of acknowledging that the American people are outraged by the appearance of election hijacking, instead of taking this opportunity to really show his moral fiber to his fellow Americans and the world community, he accuses Vice President Gore of being a sore loser. Is this what Bush means when he says he will restore honor and integrity to the White House? Is this how he intends to show he is "a uniter, not a divider"?

To illustrate - instant replay in the NFL works like this. If a call on the field is to be challenged, the head coach who wants the play reviewed will throw a red flag onto the field. If the call is not reversed, then the challenge is lost and it costs the team a time-out.

The head coach relies on other coaches in a stadium box who can see the play from different camera angles. They can relay via radio to the head coach whether or not the play should be challenged. In that time, the opposing team gets together for a quick offensive play to minimize the amount of time the coaches in the booth have to review the play. Once the new play is initiated by the opposing team, the play in question can no longer be reviewed.

Bush knows politics, he knows how to sell himself, and he damn sure knows his football.

He is relying on short memories, one of our nation's most plentiful resources. He knows this will be forgotten about in 4 years when he runs for re-election. If it's brought up again, he can always cry dirty pool by the so-called "liberal media", or merely that he is being persecuted by Democrats seeking retribution for the conservatives having lopped off Clinton's coattails for this election.

The score can't change once the game is over. Bush badly wants the final gun to go off so he can run into the locker room and celebrate, no doubt spraying political rewards like so much champagne.

If only this were just a game.


It's Clear Bush Won The Election The Way We Have Our Government... Nov 11th. at 3:58:00 pm UTC

Tanais (Spokane, Washington US) Age: 20


It's clear Bush won the election the way we have our government set up if no further actions take place. The Democratic party is whining, and maybe rightfully so, about misballoting and absentee votes. Florida isn't the only state with controversy with this election. My home state of Washington technically could still go either way once the absentee ballots are done. Quite honestly I don't care who is the next president anymore. The real focus should be on the chairs in the house and senate. Yes the president has lots of power, but with the senate and house so closely cut down the middle, neither Bush or Gore will get anything done. Yes, we have a republican senate and a republican house but politics isn't as partisan as most would like to think. Forget about Roe v. Wade it won't be overturned even if Bush is in office. The whole issue about pagans in the military again won't be that much an issue. Whoever is president will have to become bipartisan and quickly and also will have to make some very smart decisions. This has been one of the closest elections since Taft or Kennedy were elected president. The entire country is going to be watching Bush or Gore extremely close and if they screw up even the slightest bit, they might as well forget running for re-election in 2004. As far as the troubles in the middle east, same thing applies. Screw up just the tiniest bit and forget re-election. To summarize my little ranting here, the next four years are going to be virtually uneventful as far as drastic changes in this country no matter who is president.


As A Canadian I Am Personally Dismayed By The Possibility Of North... Nov 11th. at 4:05:15 pm UTC

Doug (Vancouver, British Columbia CA) Age: 39 - Email


As a Canadian I am personally dismayed by the possibility of North America electing two right-wing leaders in the same month.

Stockwell Day, the Canadian Alliance party leader and potential PM, is the former finance minister of Alberta, (Canada's answer to Texas--cowboys, lots of petro-dollars, etc.), and shares many of the same values as Bush with respect to abortion, gay rights and down-home christianity. Indeed if both are elected they are quite likely to become good buddies, similar to Brian Mulroney and George W's dad.

Nevertheless, I will NOT give in to the politics of fear practiced by the Canadian Liberal party (currently in power, and similar to center-right Democrats). They are proclaiming loudly to anyone who will listen that a vote for anyone other than a Liberal candidate is a vote for Stockwell Day, a tax cut for the rich, national referenda on abortion, capital punishment (which is currently illegal), etc.

Canada has 4 parties with something close to a national power-base, and a 5th with an explicit Quebec seperatist agenda. This can at times lead to deadlocks, and the necessity of coalition-building in parliament, (which is also the source of our executive branch), but overall the situation is healthy.

Despite the current cynicism about the political process in my country, I feel that multi-party representation at all levels of govt. is the best form of representative democracy, (and the most likely situation in which cynicism and non-participation are dispelled).

So I commend those Americans who had the courage to vote for the candidate of their choice, rather than giving in to fear and casting a vote AGAINST a front-running candidate. The results may not be to your liking now, but in the long-term your democracy will be healthier for it. Eventually you, (or people who believe as you do), will be represented....

To those on the left who voted for Nadar, and those on the right who supported Browne, keep the faith, and don't let anyone tell you that you've wasted your vote.

b*b
Doug

PS: For those Canadians interested, I'm in a riding with an excellent NDP candidate, and I'll be voting for her. However, in a different riding I would likely vote Green...as I would've if I were American.


I Voted For Al Gore, But I've Pretty Well Reconciled Myself To... Nov 11th. at 4:17:14 pm UTC

Hearthstone (Calumet, Michigan US) Age: 38


I voted for Al Gore, but I've pretty well reconciled myself to a Bush electoral win. I don't think either candidate should concede until all the votes are in (which should be 10 days after the election, to ensure absentee ballot arrival). What's the rush, anyway? Isn't accuracy more important than speed? I have no problem with the recount, of course, and am surprised that more states haven't done one; I'm undecided on the issue of the ballot design but I tend toward the position that this is something that should have been decided *before* the election--didn't they user-test that thing? Allowing a revote would set a precedent I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with.

One thing I am hoping is that this election will make it clear to people that the electoral college needs to be dumped. (It's not going to be fun to explain to my 6-year-old that although more American people wanted one candidate to be president, the other one won).

Finally, I think that whoever wins will have to walk on eggs for a while, both because there was no stong voter mandate in one direction or the other and because both candidates and their parties have *not* handled this situation in a particularly classy way. It's unlikely that the winner will be reelected in 2004, or that the loser will be renominated then. Just a bad situation overall.

As for the Pagan angle, Bush is obviously ignorant about Pagan religions, having made several statements to that effect. But I think it's unlikely that we'd be high on his hit list, quite frankly. Indirectly, certainly a Bush presidency could be bad for many issues of concern to many Pagans (environmentalism, for example), but as I've said, with a government as balanced as ours will be, I think whoever wins will have a heck of a hard time pushing his agenda.


I Did Not Vote, As I Did Not Have Time. I Have... Nov 11th. at 4:26:30 pm UTC

paige (coal region, Pennsylvania US) Age: 25


i did not vote, as i did not have time. i have just moved back into pa. however, i am supportive if al gore. the biggest reason is that he upports women's rights. bush is a redneck moron, i my opinion. i just could never vote for a candidate who would vow to again abolish safe, legal abortions.also, the republican party affiliation with the christian rights people deeply disturbs this witch. anti gay, anti choice, anti freedom... if bush makes it to the white house i am moving to canada!


Yes I Did Vote As I Always Do, If For No Other... Nov 11th. at 5:19:45 pm UTC

Whisperwind (Tacoma, Washington US) Age: 33 - Email


Yes I did vote as I ALWAYS do, if for no other reason then for the right to complain. I voted for Al Gore, though I am sad to say I did so because I did not want Bush to win. If it was not so close a battle I would have voted for Nader. Quite frankly Bush scares me. I just cling to the fact that our country's government is set up in such a way that no one person has all the power.

My husband and I have been discussing the whole electoral college thing. Why is it that we have had so many advancements in technology but we cling to such an archaic system? I cannot help but to think it would be possible to use computers to make our votes more percise. Perhaps we could even vote from our homes on our PC or from the library. This whole punch card thing is ridiculous. I can see a web site set up for each district that we could log on to and using our social security numbers or perhaps a seperate voting number with pass word, the Divine Couple knows how many hackers have our SS numbers, LOL. On the web site there could be pictures of the people running and a short statement next to them like in the voter's pamphlet. Also the initiatives could be listed with their explanations. That way when it was time for you to vote and you came upon something you hadn't heard of you would not have to resort to eeny meeny miney mo.

As far as the recount in Florida, I think it gives us credit that we care about the importance of our votes enough to make sure we get it right. My husband however thinks that other countries are laughing at us as we fumble the ball.


Well, I'm A Canadian, So I've Been Following Our Election More Closely... Nov 11th. at 7:46:15 pm UTC

Erin (Ottawa, Ontario CA) Age: 24


Well, I'm a Canadian, so I've been following our election more closely than yours, so forgive me if my opinions offend or sound shallow or simple, but...first, what's the deal with the Electoral College? I understand there have been a few instances in your history where a president won because he had the most votes from the Electors, even though the *other* candidate had more of the popular vote. That doesn't sound like it represents the will of the people particularly well. (Not that our system is perfect either.)

Second, couldn't the government just decide to have a second election? How will re-counting the ballots solve anything? And why should only Florida get to re-do their votes?


I Voted And For President I Wrote In Chutulu. Given The Choise... Nov 11th. at 8:31:51 pm UTC

Silver MayKitten (Springfield, Missouri US) Age: 55 - Email


I voted and for president I wrote in Chutulu. Given the choise of the lesser of many evils, I voted my own.


I Voted For Gore. When Someone Announces That My Religion Isn't One... Nov 11th. at 8:55:43 pm UTC

Lucinda-June Chapman sisterbluerose (Elmira, New York US) Age: 48 - Email


I voted for Gore. When someone announces that my religion isn't one... You don't have to hit me with a brick before I wnderstand.

Some people have been asking what the Goddess's will is on this. I believe that we need to be outspoken. I believe we should have a "Pagan Fourth of July Party" A political party that announces we are patriotic and Pagan. We should as the Pagan Fourth of July Party have a great celebration of this each fourth of July. We should get together to celebrate our holy days. We should be both vocal and organized.

I tell people. I couldn't vote for Bush. He believes my religion isn't one. That is when I don't quote the Boondocks cartoon of Nov 6. "You voted for the Dumbest man in America"


Yes, I Did Vote, And Consider It A Priviledge To Do So... Nov 11th. at 9:42:33 pm UTC

Shelby Martin (Houston, Minnesota US) Age: 33 - Email


Yes, I did vote, and consider it a priviledge to do so. I voted for Harry Browne, the Libertarian Party candidate. Why? because before the election, I researched on the varius candidates positions on many issues. I actually asked Harry Browne's campaign, via e-mail, what his stance on people's freedom to chose and practice whatever religion they choose. I asked this based on the comments I heard Mr. Bush make regarding the Pagan religions and the practice of Witchcraft. If you remember when the question arose regarding Wiccan circles being held in the military at Fort Hood, Mr. Bush responded that Wicca was not a valid religion. I also read his response to the Internet question of the day as linked by The Witch's Vox. Needless to say, as a Pagan, my choice was pretty clear. I wasn't voting for him. Mr. Browne, running on the Libertarian Party ticket, believes that all Americans should choose how to live their own lives, including the practice of religion. I wish more people could hear the other messages that are out there, other than what the media has pushed onto us, making us believe that we really only have 2 choices. That is NOT the way this country is supposed to run.


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