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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 19,635,314  

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Reponses: 263

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Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

If I Was Old Enough 2 Vote...i Would've Voted For Anyone... Nov 11th. at 11:50:59 pm EST

Moonlight Myst (Sequim, Washington US) Age: 14 - Email

If I was old enough 2 vote...I would've voted for anyone but Bush. I feel a bit angered at the fact that he doesn't believe that Wicca is a true religion. The U.S. is a free country & we should be able to choose (or not choose) whichever religion that we please. To me it seems that Bush should think before he speaks...perhaps he should've read about it before he judged my religion. I didn't hide my thoughts about the election whenever someone asked, and I also gave them the same reason I'm giving now. In conclusion, If Bush happens 2 win, I hope all the pagans who voted Bush know that they gave away their freedom of religion.

I Live In Broward County, And Although I Checked Over My Punches... Nov 12th. at 12:06:45 am EST

Eli (Fort Lauderdale, Florida US) Age: 18

I live in Broward County, and although I checked over my punches in my ballot and I believe I checked the back to make sure the holes were perfect, in the event that MY vote for Al Gore was somehow misread by a machine I would like them to do as thorough a recount as necessary to be within 98% accuracy. I can also tell you that two points of Florida election law were violated by the Palm Beach, one saying that the hole must be placed to the "right" of the candidate's name, the other specifying very specifically that the top parties, Republican and Democrat, shall be placed at the top two points and nobody else above or in between them, and there is also in the laws a picture of what a ballot must look like and the Palm Beach ballot did not conform. The law is the law. As for the Bush camp's Federal suit, machine counts are considerably less reliable than hand counts, so the hand count does need to be done to check these thousands and thousands of ballots where the machines could find no punches for the Presidential candidate. Governor George W. Bush himself signed a law in Texas agreeing with what I said, that in close races hand counts are preferable, and contrary to what Karen Hughes has said machine counts are not used for reliability but rather speed, since so many elections yield clear winners regardless of the tiny errors. Another factor is that because of thousands upon thousands of instances of black and elederly voter intimidation, civil rights protection groups from all around the country may soon be mounting one of the largest single civil rights battles ever foughts. If the Bush camp can find similar instances in which the law provides for a legal challenge and sufficient evidence exists to consider rectifying problems with the election system, I invite them. I voted for Al Gore, I voted the straight Democratic ticket, and I quite frankly despise the Republican Party and would like to see it's immediate disbandment, but what matters to me more than party conflicts is the integrity of what it supposed to be an unimpeachable election process in which the votes of each person matter, and intelligence or thoroughness are not factors in your ability to properly cast a vote (I know that can never be entirely guaranteed, but it should be 99% guaranteed that even a retarded individual with an IQ of say 65-70 can figure out the ballot with a little help), and certainly hanging pieces of paper and mechanical errors and illegal ballots and ballot designs that confuse and mislead voters should never be a factor in any election. If Bush legitimately won this election I will absolutely accept that and hold my political nose for the next four years, but each and every voter in this nation must have their rights protected, regardless of who they voted for or where they voted, and regardless of whether it's a Presidential election, a Senate election, a Gubernatorial election, or a City Council election, that is what is guaranteed by our Constitution, read it if you want and you'll see that nowhere does it say anything about an acceptable margin of error in the election system, and so I would say that the margin should be vastly less than 1% margin for error, because expecting anything better than vastly less than a 1% margin for error, and I mean nationally, would be expecting reality to turn itself upside-down, nothing anywhere, even 2+2=4, has a completely 100% guarantee, just vastly vastly more than 99% at best. In short, all litigation should be welcome, the world should not see the US setting the example of allowing a gigantic margin for voting error.

Solve This And As Quickly As Possible! I Believe That Any And... Nov 12th. at 12:19:19 am EST

Democrat-4-Life Eli (Fort Lauderdale, Florida US) Age: 18

SOLVE THIS AND AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE! I believe that any and all legal actions to preserve the integrity of the system should be carried through to conclusion and that until that neither men should step down, but this has absolutely got to be rectified before people in other nations suddenly decide that since their votes in America might not matter anymore than their votes or (if they don't have a vote) their opinions in their own nations. People come here in large part because we choose our leaders, and if any doubt of that exists nations around this world will have a damaged image of our nation. Please resolve this as thoroughly as necessary but as quickly as possible, and then find a way to spin this in our favor internationally, say for instance because we've gone through all this and there are no riots or tanks and soldiers in the streets, and in fact it has served to rekindle the spirit of grass-roots action that helped to make the 1960s a tossup for the proudest time in our history (the tossup being between then and now, now that we have the strongest economy in our nation's history). No excuses, but no mistakes either, just get it done.

I Did Not Vote . Simply Because I Do Not Believe In Either... Nov 12th. at 1:04:36 am EST

shannon (mesa, Arizona US) Age: 23 - Email

i did not vote . simply because i do not believe in either one of the men running. but i do believe that gore should stop being such a sore loser and let it go allready .

I Did Vote And I Am Pretty Disgusted With The Way Florida... Nov 12th. at 1:37:59 am EST

Bethany (Phoenix, Arizona US) Age: 39

I did vote and I am pretty disgusted with the way Florida handled the election process in the first place. They definitely made the ballot confusing and when they found people voting for two candidates or for a disproportionate amount for Buchanan they just threw the double ballots out and did not question it. You know this is the Year of the Dragon and the year of extremes. The ongoing election fraud and mishandling of ballots was eventually going to come to a head. We are probably just touching the tip of the iceberg of what has gone on for years, and now that we are in the "information age" we are more informed on the questions we are facing on the election. I dont think anyone should concede because we are already have a President until January. But we do need to get a handle on this situation whether it be decided federally or by a judge. I shake at the thought that we as country elected someone so alien to the environment as George W., I shudder to think if he appoints Justices to the Supreme Court that reverse all the gains we have made especially in women's right to chose. You I saw a program that said that George W. was a "C" student and he got through Yale and a business college with a "C" average and now he will President and being responsible for rather complex decisions and diplomacy in the new millenium which by the way comes in 2001. Thank for allowing me to voice my opinion as I live in a relatively conservative state and much of the people SURROUNDING me are Republicans.

I Voted For The Rede In The Form Of The Libertarian Platform... Nov 12th. at 3:02:07 am EST

Trickster (Austin (belly of the beast), Texas US) Age: 42 - Email

I voted for the Rede in the form of the Libertarian platform. And tho there is no clear winner between Gush and Bore, I feel we are all losers as far as president goes. Neither seems to have the words "freedom" or "liberty" in their vocabularies. Their idea of smaller government is to limit how much it will grow. I do feel, however, that we did win one battle. The Green party failed to achieve their goal of 5% and thus does not qualify for federal matching funds next time. I'm tired of involuntarily financing two campaigns which I do not support, and the idea of paying for a third totally disgusts me. Especially when I freely contribute to the party of my choice which will never take tax dollar one to hype their candidate. As for Florida...

Lemme tell ya story 'bout a man named Jeb

counted up the votes and he told a little fib

folks picked Buchannan when they really wanted gore

misplaced some ballots and they threw away some more

foiled that is

out cold

Texas spree

Well the first thing ya know Al Gore is screamin' "foul!"

he said "Hell no! I won't throw in the towel!"

folks said "DC is the place you oughta be!"

so he loaded up the lawyers and lit out from Tennessee

shills, that is

loop holes

votin' farce

I wish that we could say goodbye to Jeb and all his kin

cause citizens are losers all, no matter which one wins

but they'll be comin' back next week with lawyers and daddy

we'll get a heapin' bellyful of the George Bush family

ballots count off

wait a spell

y'all get no Slack now, ya hear?

(the Florida Bushbillies by Trickster & Moonowl)

I Voted For Gore. Both Candidates Will Face Incredible Opposition From All... Nov 12th. at 9:30:46 am EST

Mino (Naples, Florida US) Age: 42 - Email

I voted for Gore. Both candidates will face incredible opposition from all the hoop-la that the close election has brought to this country. This will promote further distrust between republicans and democrats.

IMHO, pagan communities will continue to gel and swell under any presidency. Human planetary 'good-citizenship' would be served best under Gore. Bush would allow more destruction of the environment necessary to maintain the human existence. Nobody really knows what a president can accomplish from his political platform due to opposition in congress and senatorial debate.

The big question is: What power does an individual have in this country? The Electorial College IS an important consideration in a presidential election. It represents the governmental concerns of large populations in geographical areas.
It is more of a socialist approach however, and should not overrule the Popular Vote, which is democracy in its purest form.

I think that a presidential candidate should be required to carry BOTH the Electoral College AND the Popular Vote. If there is a split, then there should be a run-off election between the two candidates, by Popular Vote. The American People would then decide the outcome, instead of the American Political Process.
This election being so close REQUIRES that votes be recounted in all areas of the country where the margin of victory was less than 5% ! Fair is fair.

I Voted For Nader. My S.o. Voted For Browne. I Don't Care... Nov 12th. at 10:17:42 am EST

sabine (Milwaukee, Wisconsin US) Age: 39

I voted for Nader. My S.O. voted for Browne. I don't care for either of the main candidates, and I'd like to see more choices than the two-party system affords. However, I'd rather see Gore win than Bush.

I Voted For Gore. I Don't Believe Gore Is The "perfect Candidate... Nov 12th. at 12:04:55 pm EST

SpiritFlame (Phila, Pennsylvania US) Age: 28

I voted for Gore. I don't believe Gore is the "perfect candidate" but I believe he is much better than Bush. I don't trust Bush. Anyone who talks about how "my daddy didn't get me here" probably got there on his father's coattails. Also, it makes me very nervous that the NRA and the religious right support him. And as much as I consider myself pro-life, since I don't trust Bush, I don't want him deciding not only on abortion, but also possibly on birth control, fertility, and other areas of a woman's life that the president has no business being involved in.
Echoing some other comments in this section -- I really detest that Bush feels that Wicca is not a true religion. It's true to me! It is a huge part of my life! Jesus Christ is not a part of my life -- does that mean that Christianity is not a true religion because I don't believe in it? I think Bush should leave the business of judging the validity of religions to the Goddess (or, in his case, God). If he becomes president, will we as Wiccans lose our freedom of religion because of one man's opinions? I think there is a lot at stake here.
It seems to me the entire system of election is falling apart. First Florida, now four or five other states are considering recounts, and there's talk of lawsuits to have a new vote, there's talk of fraud by brother Jeb -- just a huge, huge mess. I wonder what other nations are thinking of us right now? Probably laughing their behinds off.
On the one hand, I want this finished, and I want the endless media analysis to stop (they're going in circles). On the other hand, I really, REALLY want Gore to win because he is for middle class families and religious freedom, and I'm thinking that, maybe, if they count long enough, he'll turn out to be the winner.... Have we really come a long enough way in history that one man wouldn't bring us back to the witch hunts (modern day version of banning things and censorship, of course)?

Yes, I Voted. I Have To Add That I Did So Reluctantly... Nov 12th. at 12:20:39 pm EST

J. P. DeMeritt (League City, Texas US) Age: 43 - Email

Yes, I voted. I have to add that I did so reluctantly -- not because I was impressed by the vision of any of the candidates, but because I was concerned that one of the candidates opposed my beliefs more than the others.

I have to agree with a previous writer that we need an alternative to the present two party system. I believe we've already seen several versions of that alternative. One is the Reform Party, which has organized quickly and posted impressive results in its outings at the polls. However, the Reform Party has no vision beyond being an alternative to the Republican and Democratic Parties. They've proven, nonetheless, that the conventional parties can be successfully challenged. And that's a start!

The second alternative lies in the success of grassroots protests like the WTO protest in Seattle last year. Organized largely over the Internet, protests like these prove that public opinion can be rapidly mobilized without recourse to standing organizations like conventional political parties -- all that's really needed is a candidate with true vision who can clearly communicate a concrete, compelling image of a highly desirable future. What remains is that people honestly interested in promoting good government find such people and bring them to the attention of the rest of us! I believe that if we can find people with such images of the future, we can find leaders who will truly motivate the people -- and they'll vote for the future!

As for the current election . . . I think it's extremely interesting to note that the leaders of the Republican Party are currently claiming that machine counting votes is more accurate than hand counting, yet they were the same ones who protested that the Census had to be accomplished through a 100% enumeration instead of the statistical methods experts proclaim as more accurate!

Finally, remember that even though the projections give the election to one candidate or the other, the Electoral College has yet to meet and cast their votes. They may yet elect the candidate the American people most support.

I wish this country good luck!

I Voted For Bush And I'm Damn Proud Of It. The Republicans... Nov 12th. at 12:41:09 pm EST

Kelly Steed (Harrison Township, Michigan US) Age: 35

I voted for Bush and I'm damn proud of it. The Republicans are the only party who care about whether America remains a free nation in that they support a strong military. For the last eight years, we've had a draft dodger, traitor, sex offender and crook in the White House and now those idiots from New York have put his crooked wife into office. The Democrats embarassed America in front of the entire world. Clinton should have been impeached. He lied under oath and if any of us had done that we'd be in prison right now.

When our troops were in Somalia on a humanitarian mission they were shot down in the streets. Clinton did nothing. Equipment was requested by out soldiers but it was never sent because Clinton and his cabinet refused to ask Congress for it. A unit was sent in to do a job that they weren't trained for and they all got killed. They drug our soldier's bodies through the streets like they were trophies and nothing was done. When our embassies were bombed, Clinton only responded to take some of the heat off himself. Now the USS Cole was attacked and sailors died. The next day a British embassy was bombed. We need a president who will defend us. During the Gulf War the Congress was Democratic, George Sr. had to call up our National Guard Units to fight a war. That's just plan wrong our standing army should have been stronge enought to handle it. The National Guard is for home defense. Why did this happen? Because the Democratic Congress had cut our military to the bone. You better worry about keeping your freedom as an American and worry about your religion second because if we get taken over, I guarantee your religious freedom will be gone forever.

I know a number of self-proclaimed Wiccans who still celebrate Thanksgiving, the holiday which celebrates the winter survival of the Puritans, the people who killed witches in the 1690's. They also celebrate Christmas and Easter. They also have their children baptised in Christian churches to make their families happy. No true Pagan would celebrate the holidays of the greatest religious repressers in the world. Until you clean house other Pagan groups are not going to band together with you.

AS FOR THE BURNING TIMES, have any of you ever done any historical research at all? Wicca was started in the 1950's by Gerald Gardner and other than borrowing certain it is not an ancient Pagan faith. The people executed in the United States for Witchcraft were hanged not burned and one was crushed to death. They were not Wiccans and you cannot claim them. In fact, their accusers were the ones practicing witchcraft through Tituba and got caught. They claimed they were bewitched to save their own hides.

AS FOR THE BURNINGS IN EUROPE, Jews, Gypsies, the elderly especially widows, landed people (without any royal friends were burned because the church had the right to confiscate the property of condemned witches.) If any of these groups
were practicing any form of Paganism it would have been a form native to their cultures. They weren't Wiccans and you can't claim them either. If for one, am tired of Wiccans misrepresenting history! If you want to claim them as martyred Pagans, in general, that could be supported.

Under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights Pagans cannot be denied their right to practice their religion regardless of what faith that happens to be. If Bush has a problem with Wiccans in the military, it is probably because most hold their sabats in the nude and that is not appropriate on a military base. Why? Because not all of our soldiers are exactly reputable people. Women by and large, and most Wiccans I have met are women, are still second class citizens in the military. We don't have equal rights and many female personel get victimized by men. Holding a nude sabat on a base is just asking for someone of a low character to rape you.

Egyptian Cult of the Dead

Alright, So I Couldn't Vote Due To My Age. But, As I... Nov 12th. at 2:32:54 pm EST

Lindsey Gale (Orlando, Florida US) Age: 15 - Email

Alright, so I couldn't vote due to my age. But, as I have a huge interest in politics, and so do my non-pagan parents, I was very involved in this election by working on the Bush campaign here in Orlando, Florida. Yes, I supported Bush. I didn't agree with him on every issue, but this is not a one issue election. I will not take what looks like the "popular" stance among pagans and say that Gore was the best candidate simply because Bush doesn't agree with my personal religious beliefs. Quite frankly, I can see why he doesn't think Wiccans should be allowed to hold their ceremonies at Army bases. If you're in the Army, you do not get the same rights as average Americans while you are on duty. You know that when you enlist. If Wiccans insist on using knives in theirrituals at bases, and practicing them nude, and so on, then no, they shouldn't be allowed to hold them on Army bases. You can worship the Gods without dancing nude and waving a knife around aimlessly.

Second, I'm tired of all the attacks here on Jeb Bush, my governor who I whole-heartedly support, and the accusations that he 'fixed' the election. It's downright hilarious! How can you try to blame Jeb for the 'confused' seniors in Palm Beach with their butterfly ballots? Let me remind you that a Democrat designed them, Democrats okayed them, and they are used in many other counties in the country which Gore carried. It's sad, really, that someone who ahs been voting for decades cannot understand what an arrow pointing to a dot means. My 5 year old cousin understood it! If it was a bingo card, would they have had such a hard time?

Now, onto the electoral college. In my opinion, it is a good thing. If we didn't have the electoral college, New York, California, Texas, and Florida could basically determine who the president was. That is simply wrong. Those three states to do not represent the majority of the American people. Let me also sya that no, the majority of America does not want Gore in office. First of all, 50% of Americans didn't vote, so 50% of people couldn't care less, which is a whole other story. Gore had 49% of half of the country vote for him. That means 51% of half the country doesn't want him in a 100 mile radius of the Oval Office! Just like the our current Perjuruer In Chief.

This whole situation brings to mind a well known story in a book that Wiccans seem to hate with a passion for no good reason...the Bible. Let me call to mind a story involving a baby, two women, and a kind named Solomon. When both women claimed that the baby was theirs, Solomon decided that he would slice it in half so that each women could have the baby. The first woman agreed, and urged him to do it. The second woman conceded, and said that she would rather see her baby raised by someone else then killed. In my mind, Gore is the first woman. He is showing that he cares not for the country, but for his own ego. He is dividing the country because he can't believe that he lost.

If this election is overturned , then there will be some serious changes in how I live my life. For example, I will no longer take part in any American holidays, such as Memorial Day, the Fourth of July, and so on. Why will I turn my back on holidays that celebrate member sof my family who gave their blood and their lives for this country? Because Al Gore, the media, and all those who think these recounts are a good thing have spit on their graves and said that their sacrifices mean nothing. You might as well dance on the graves of those who fought and died.

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