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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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104. Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq? - [258]

103. What Are You Reading? - [95]

102. Do Interfaith Conferences/ Discussions Work? - [29]

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100. Why Are You A Pagan or Heathen? - [142]

99. What Moon Phase Are You In? - [70]

98. Would You Live In A Haunted House? - [166]

97. What Natural Objects Are On Your Altar? - [103]

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94. Who Would Make Your Pagan/Heathen Who’s Who List? - [91]

93. Should Pagans Apply For Federal Funds? - [56]

92. What Do You See in 2003? - [47]

90. Which Christmas Ghost Would You Like To Be? - [82]

89. Bah-Humbug! Are You Offended by Christmas? - [173]

88. Are We Alone in The Universe? - [67]

87. The Pagan Web 2002... Your likes? Dislikes? - [50]

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85. What’s Your Motivation? - [97]

84. Between the Veils: What Did You See? - [80]

83. Time to Talk Politics and Elections… - [109]

82. Your Samhain/Beltaine Musings - [50]

81. ExCUSE Me! Has Common Courtesy Become A Thing of the Past? - [97]

80. Polytheist, Monotheist, Dualist or Other? - [104]

79. Have You Switched Pagan Paths? - [110]

78. Would You Take Part in a Public Event or Protest AS a Pagan? - [268]

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76. America 911: One Year Later. What's Changed? Are we Safer? - [103]

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72. Is 'Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men' Possible? - [28]

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70. What's News? - [22]

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61. Are You Willing To Give Up Some Civil Liberties To Be Safe? - [69]

60. What About Those Pagan Leaders Again? - [289]

59. 911 America: Talking Through The Terror... - [969]

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57. If You Were Stranded Alone On A Deserted Island... - [56]

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53. What is 'Will' or 'Willpower'? - [19]

52. Have you ever been to a Pagan Festival? - [26]

51. What Did You Think of 'The Mists of Avalon"? - [44]

50. What's Your Magickal Focus? - [33]

49. Ending Religious Discrimination-What's It Gonna Take? - [41]

48. How Fares The First Amendment? - [20]

47. Are you a Talker or a Listener? - [14]

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43. What's On Your Balloon? - [52]

42. Is There An Energy Crisis? - [30]

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40. What is Your Guilty Little Secret? - [101]

39. Who Are Your Gods? - [55]

38. What Are The Greatest Challenges That Pagans Face Today? - [35]

37. What's On Your Altar? - [45]

36. Should the United States Apologize to China - [32]

35. Pagan Web Surfing Likes/Dislike - [60]

34. What Are Your Views on Abortion, Euthanasia and Suicide? - [95]

33. What Is The Appropriate Response to Bigotry and Religious Hatred? - [108]

32. Why Are Kids Killing Kids? - [60]

31. Whassa Matter With Kids Today? - [71]

30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

29. How About Some New Holidays? - [39]

28. Where Did You Get Your Magickal Name? - [93]

27. Where Are The Pagan Social Programs? Do We Care? - [22]

26. What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan? - [87]

25. What Are The Boundaries? - [26]

24. What is Pagan History and What is Pagan Belief? - [44]

23. Who or What is a "Pagan Leader"? - [61]

22. What More Do You Want To Know About Paganism? - [45]

21. What is/was your New Year's resolution? - [19]

19. What do YOU of our newest entry into the Presidential Political Pool? - [61]

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17. Does Older Equal Better? - [199]

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14. The Unresolved US Election - [263]

13. Divination - [29]

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11. Hollywood Hype - [74]

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9. Pagan Jokes and Humorous Stories - [37]

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7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

6. What are YOU planning for Mabon-Autumn Equinox? - [14]

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2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,001,770  

Vox Q Stats

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Reponses: 289

Lurker/Post Ratio: 113 to 1

Question of the Week: 60 - 10/1/2001

What About Those Pagan Leaders Again?

As we mentioned in our homepage introduction, the question of who our 'Pagan Leaders' might be has again been raised. And perhaps that is a good thing as the world situation has changed and perhaps the views of Pagans on the topic have changed as well. We would request that those who continue to support the decades old view that Pagans do not need national leaders also then address the question of what should we do to comfort/represent our own at a national level in times of crisis seeing as most folks in the Pagan community are still solitaries.

We request that those who take the position that national leaders are (or may) be needed to represent the Pagan communities in times such as this also address the question of how these 'leaders' would be supported financially in order that they might afford to work full-time for the communities and/or take emergency/diplomatic trips to seats of political power to represent you.

And finally, just where would the national election for 'Pagan Leaders' be held? Without such an election, any national 'Pagan Leader' would by necessity have to be an 'appointed' one, wouldn't he/she? (Just who does the appointing has always been interesting.) This question is one of a 'national' Pagan leadership and the benefits and/or drawbacks of such. Local and community Pagan leaders/advocates/facilitators are already in place and generally do a wonderful job where they are.

 Reponses:   There are 289 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

I Am Not Sure What We Even Need National Leaders For, I... Sep 26th. at 2:54:34 pm EDT

Ari Thompson (Detroit, Michigan US) Age: 54

I am not sure what we even need national leaders for, I think the local groups handle most of what matters at the least they do in our area. if the old thinking pagans have a problem with the "non famous" pagans speaking to press, too bad for them. our groups are different and our local communities are different.

I don't care about hob-nobbing with the other faiths, I only care that I have right to practice my spirituality.

I am sadden to see so many self-serving egos striving for national recognition. Those that say they are national leaders or that are trying to be are the last ones that I'd pick. They need to get over themselves. They need to get to work with the rest of us.

Witchvox has always been a fair and a safe haven for most of us solitaires. In many ways they lead by example, and have been faithful to the community for years. I can't think of any other site that does this week after week. I have grown to trust the staff here.

Good show Witchvox!

Perhaps I Am Young At Sixteen And Unexperienced But Maybe Leaders Are... Sep 26th. at 3:31:33 pm EDT

Brittany Meyer (Suffolk, England UK) Age: 16

Perhaps I am young at sixteen and unexperienced but maybe leaders are not what we need if they are not there. I know there are people praying and comforting those lives which have been lost to the likes of such heartless destruction but if we are such sensitive people we should comfort each other as a whole not as leaders and representatives.
We have here even if the leaders cannot be and maybe should we not be getting together and bring the sunshine out of the rain?
We could organise everyone who visits this site for at the same time and the same hour to have a huge web circle.
Everyone praying at the same time to their deity with the intent of bringing forth happiness. If our leaders can't we can.
We are strong together and should work together it is never too late.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe our leaders should be there doing it for us showing the world but what if we all held hands through our minds and envisioned every pagan, Wiccan, Durid standing as one and pulling through, not just for the pagans who died but everyone who has felt the rumble of hate.
Everyone can do something. right?
Thats what I have been tought and though I am a beginner in Wicca I would like to think that it has the will to do something.
Others are praying no matter what religion so just because we know the rhythm of magick we don't. If we believe so much that we have healling power lets heal. I am not saying cast on those hurt, that would be wrong but send out our intent to the many millions who need it. Let me know what you are going to do. I want to be part of it. I lived in the states for the first eight years of my life. Those people could have been my family or friends and I do not even want to imagine how that would feel. I am in Britain now, but my heart is still with the states now more than ever.
If we all opened a cirlce at the same time then we would be opening it together, please lets do something.
Crimson Dragon...

As A Practicing Psychic Who Works In The Public And Private Sectors... Sep 26th. at 3:38:36 pm EDT

Fahrusha (New York, New York US) Age: 101 - Email

As a practicing psychic who works in the public and private sectors, who is an animist and adherent of an Earth-based spiritual path, who lives less than two miles from the tragedy, and who has now lost the public part of her income due to the tragedy, economic factors and encroaching "born again" sentiments, I would personally like to see some famous people "come out of the closet" as pagans. I don't feel as though I need a leader per se, but rather a more public peer group of well known individuals.

What About Crawling Up The Chain Of Command In The Pagan Community... Sep 26th. at 3:56:18 pm EDT

Jacqueline (Sacramento, California US) Age: 25 - Email

What about crawling up the chain of command in the Pagan community? Each coven has a leader, who must meet with someone (an equal or someone of higher rank), who goes to another, such and so forth.

Why one leader? There are many forms of Paganism, even in Wicca there are various sects due to all the different aspects of the Goddess and God. Why not a panel? They (most other secular religions) answer to one God, so have one leader, we don't. There are many faces to our Goddess and God, why should there only be one face to represent them?

I am a solitary, have been since I started practicing at about 8 or 9 years old (read about "my" religion when I was 15, even "my" holidays and rules matched so I declared myself wiccan) so I do not really know any leaders.

And on the subject of not hearing about visions/tarot/ect. When I was a teeneager (about ten years ago) I had a dream that I was standing on the upper East coast (exact spot unknown, I just KNEW it was the East coast up north) amid rubble that was once buildings. I new nature didn't cause the destruction, that it was done by man, and would result in war. The only basis I had to go on was that in the dream I had a white stripe down the middle of my hair. At the time I had all dark hair. I guessed this would happen when I was in my thirties. I started going grey at about 19. I now have a solid stripe of silver-white hair, all down the middle of my hair, and am only 25.

You cannot stop what is forseen, you can only accept. You can warn, but premeonitions usually do not have a calander and clock in them, they are general, with an empathic sense of where you are (unless you have already been there and recognize the place)(FYI: I am born, raised, and live in CA). What good does it do to say much after the fact, you look like a nutcase or fraud. I saw 9-11 almost ten years ago, that was my warning, prepmenitions do not always happen the morning of. Only friends from highschool who I told at the time know I am being honest, and they remembered I had seen it before I remembered (I went into shock like most people after seeing the destruction).

I Feel We Do Not So Much As Need A Leader As... Sep 26th. at 4:15:55 pm EDT

Perrin (Altamont, Illinois US) Age: 36

I feel we do not so much as need a leader as a spokesperson. It should be someone who has been published. As far as supporting them financially, other world leaders I am afraid would ask why as a Pagan our spokesperson was not able to support themselves. Because if you look closely at most politicians they are rich (granted they got that way by exploiting their constituency back home/or their fathers money). I do believe we need a strong group of people to act as our special interest leaders who can contact our leaders in DC. Whether this be through phone calls, letters, or trying to actually meet and greet these people. If elections were to be held for Pagan leaders this is the perfect place. Use this forum to try and decide who Pagans would trust to speak for them and allow the people who come here to vote.

Where Were The Pagan Leaders? Well, Phyllis Currot And Starhawk Did A... Sep 26th. at 6:28:21 pm EDT

Barbara A. Fisher (Columbia, Maryland US) Age: 35 - Email

Where were the Pagan Leaders?

Well, Phyllis Currot and Starhawk did a public healing ritual in New York City last week or so, and from what my sources tell me, Starhawk is planning a public healing ritual in Washington DC this weekend.

Isaac Bonewits has posted an essay calling for an end of tolerance for fundamentalist belief systems which espouse the murder of others, no matter which religion the fundamentalists claim to uphold.

Wren and Fritz have been busting thier collective hind ends keeping Witchvox up and running and churning out news and healing views for the rest of the Pagan community.

Z. Budapest has been calling for calm and rational action rather than vengeance in the Dianic community.

Those are the "self appointed Pagan leaders" whom I personaly know of, and thier activities of the past few weeks.

What, pray tell, has the author of the email in question, been doing to help the Pagan community and the American community at large? Other than writing an inflammatory email?

For years, there has been debate in the Neo-Pagan community over whether or not we need national Pagan leaders. And how many people have we heard saying that we needed no national hierarchical structure, and we don't need Pagan leaders, and we certainly don't need to pay them.

I hate to tell folks like the author of the email, but other religions -pay- thier religious leaders for thier time and services. If we want national Pagan leaders on a par with the likes of Billy Graham, we have to have a structure and money to support them. As Isaac Bonewits said at this year's Starwood, "If every Pagan in America would give up one piece of silver jewelry, we could have our first permanent Pagan temple and paid clergy for that temple. But, that isn't what Pagans want to spend money on."

Other Pagans, whether they are national "leaders" or not, have been doing thier part in this crisis. They are working with the Red Cross, volunteering, donating blood, donating food and money, holding healing rituals, and organizing a program to match up Pagans in the military with civilians stateside so they can have support from back home. Another Pagan has taken it upon herself to create a network of people to help shelter Islamic neighbors should the need arise.

What I see happening in the Pagan community and in America in general is that people are coming together, and working together to get past this horrendous crisis. With the exception of a few people, such as the author of the email, who feel the need to point fingers, and spew blame, instead of doing something constructive.

I have one other thing to say to this person.

It is a quote from a drag queen friend of mine. "Queens who live in glass houses, just don't throw thier shoes."

Goodness, So Many Opinions! I Have Enjoyed Reading Them All In The... Sep 26th. at 6:30:26 pm EDT

Reverend Seneca Silverlight. (Austin, Texas US) Age: 43 - Email

Goodness, so many opinions! I have enjoyed reading them all in the past few days!
I have learned so much from the people that have posted to this list.

In all this I have come to admire the United Nations even more. How do they do it? They are an organization made up of different countries with thousands of different cultures, yet they seem to be able to come together and make decisions in a reasonable and ordered way. Each country has an appointed representative and those representatives are able to have dialogue with their individual countries to carry out the will of those countries in voting. I have even heard rumors that they actually reach consensus on issues from time to time. My what a system!

From what I have read here it seems that the main consensus is that we don't need religious leaders. I agree. Some say we don't need any type of leader, spokesperson, or representatives. We should be content to work out of view, out of the national limelight in our own in a quiet way. I disagree. Others hold to the view that some sort of representation is needed in order to ensure that our needs and views are known on a secular (non-religious) level. I agree as well.

A friend of mine recently made the point that Pagans want their cake and eat it too. He said that we like being the "counter cultural" hippie folks, but we want respect and to be accepted as well. Unfortunately, it seems we can't have it both ways.

The unfortunate thing is that unless we pull together to create an enduring, and meaningful coalition of sorts, we will forever be considered "counter-culture". We will be those hippy folks spouting about love, peace and war and we will never be taken seriously by the folks that really matter. Congressman, Judges, and sometimes our own families.

My personal opinion is that it is time for us to grow up. We need to learn to deal with the real world in a professional way as Pagans. If this were a Pagan country we would be able to go our happy little independent ways without ever thinking about it. Unfortunately, the cold hard truth is that the mundane world is a mean, intolerant place that loves to crunch up anything that it considers different. It takes significant acts of fortitude and steadfastness to survive and deal with it, it takes teamwork and commitment to an ideal. The ideal being that we are here and we are here to stay and will ensure that our needs and rights are kept in tact.

When are we going to start taking care of our brother and sister Pagans? We worry so much about the world, we let our own go hungry, without housing, without help. Magick works, but when a mother is out of her mind with worry on how she will feed her children, how can she focus that will to perform the spell? Who will help her? Most of the groups in pagandom I know will help their own to some extent, but will they help a Pagan mother they don't know? For how long?

Pooling our resources and money, gathering up our own trained professionals to assist and set up meaningful programs might be a good start. How can we do that if the professional is Asatru and the Organization is Wiccan? Will they help? Most likely, but not with the gusto perhaps that he would help his own. Perhaps in an organization that has a committed focus and dedication to helping ALL Pagans, he might.

My point is in all of this, that putting aside our common differences, our egos, and concentrating our will toward the true good of all may be where we should think about heading. Not everyone follows the Rede, but most follow Honor. Not everyone follows the Celtic path, but everyone has their own Gods. In a round about way, this is how the UN does it. Of course, they do consider their own needs, but they also weigh it against the common good. Perhaps we should think about following their example. It is possible for us to create a national system of representation and participation, that pools resources and a tackles the hard issues for all pagans, whatever path we walk.

Maybe, we can help that Mother feed her children, find a job and gather enough strength to stand on her own and perform the prosperity spells that she needs to stand on her own (if her path does this). If not, then she is at least strengthened to help her find her own way.

We need to remember that ot everyone has access to a Coven or Grove or group to help them, so what do we do? Do we throw her to the benevolent state that will send her to a christian charity to help? People that are in some ways completely alien to her and her children now? This is happening now in many, many cases. How about Pagans in Recovery? Should they have to endure Christian based recovery programs because we have nothing Pagan based to help them?

I don't think truly that anyone wishes to build a Pagan empire as has been implied in so many emails here. Authors, Artists and Clergy have traditionally down through time been the the shapers of civilization. I don't think ours are any different. We have wonderful people that have stepped forward and risked their necks for the good of all of us, when are we going to do the same for ourselves? Growing up is hard to do, but we have graduated and it's time to put that suit on and go to work.

Bright Blessings,
Reverend Seneca Silverlight

A Leadership Structure, That Is A Touchy Subject. For My Part, I... Sep 26th. at 7:35:23 pm EDT

Night Wolf / Jeff (bluefield, West Virginia US) Age: 32 - Email

A leadership structure, that is a touchy subject. For my part, I do not like the idea. I have discussed the idea amoung the few pagans that I know of in my area, and none of us wish to have any kind "leader" over us. I would like to see a more closely knit pagan community, but not with a leader as such, it tends to lead to any one idividual gaining a form of control over others and even to self-righteousness. It's why many of us are solitary practitioners, to avoid these possabilities.

I do like the idea that has been mentioined in other responces, that of a spokesperson or persons that could speek for our community, our spiritual practices. I don't know if it should be someone with high visibility, though I think it would help by virtue of credability. That person would also need to be well educated and respected amoung the pagan community. Because of the secrecy with which many of us practice, it would be hard to find the right people to take on the resposibility.

Blessings! Once Again, I'm Going To Present An Unpopular Opinion On This... Sep 26th. at 8:09:14 pm EDT

(Rev) Norm Vogel (S. Bound Brook, New Jersey US) Age: 49 - Email

Blessings! Once again, I'm going to present an unpopular opinion on this issue. (So what ELSE is new? LOL!). First off, I sincerely doubt if any of the nationally-televised services, etc. would even ALLOW a Pagan to speak! The sad truth is that we are NOT considered a valid religion by many/most Christians.

Next, what does empty "speech-making" accomplish? Nothing. For example, I truly admired Pres. Bush's resolve during his viewing of the carnage, but his speech last thurs. was total BS! It was merely a "high-class pep rally", wherein our President merely reiterated everything he said the week before. (And, he displayed all the emotion of a telephone operator). The one "new" thing was to create a "Secretary of HOME Defense".....but isn't THAT what the current "Secretary of Defense" is for? I don't get it.

For years, Pagans have criticised the impressive monuments/buildings that various religions have erected, but that contain little (if any) Spirituality. (And, I agree with this).

By the same token, I feel that the "Pagan Leaders" in our Community ARE doing a lot! Lighting candles, donating blood, $, clothing, etc, ministering to the bereaved, and even doing positive magick at this time (remember when British Witches gathered together against Hitler in WWI?), and all the countless ways of helping ARE important! They ARE just as valid as a "public splash".

Even Jesus said that people should "go into a closet to pray"; in other words, don't make a "show" out of it. And, that's what I'm saying.

Also, continuing to stand up for our Religious Rights during this period is important. Pagans responded en masse to express their displease at "Revs" Falwell and Robertson. (I wrote an editorial to the Washington Post).

All Pagan Communities have their "leaders"; they and ALL Pagans are helping, each in their own way.

There ain't ever gonna be "One Pagan Leader"; that's impossible! But, we can (& HAVE DONE) do our bit to help those who have suffered during this terrible disaster. So what if our help is "anonymous"? It helps the people and, I think, pleases the Lord & Lady.

That's all that matters! Brightest Blessings, Rev. Norm Vogel

Hmmm, Let's See. Yes. Yes, I Beleave We Need A National Leader... Sep 26th. at 8:18:47 pm EDT

John Stack (Cupertino, California US) Age: 28 - Email

Hmmm, let's see. Yes. Yes, I beleave we need a National Leader in the 'neo'-Pagan community. Or two. I'm fairly new to this as it is. But one thing I've learned is the old rule of keeping our silence. I agree with this, mostly. These days though, and by that I mean the last twenty years or so, I truely feel that it is time we break our silence. Back in the days of Salem, in this land of the so called free, we didn't dare. Spider Robinson, one of my favorite S/F authors, has been quoted as saying that this is The Age of the Minority Groups. I have to agree. It is because of this however that we finally do have a voice in the greater scheme of things. For perhaps the first time in a millinium and a half. That whole "Keep One's Silence" thing. I can understand needing it, especially during the Burning Times. Do we really know any more weather we still kept in back in the days when Paganism was the way of life in Europe. But this isn't Medival Europe any more. This is the Global Community in the toddlerhood of the Information Age. Perhaps it is time we break our silence. We do indeed need a National Leader. Or two. If we're gonna do this, lets do it up right in true Pagan style. What we need is a High Priest & Priestess. My gut reaction is to nomimate the Frosts. Who knows though. The Lord & Lady in all likelyhood.


P.S. Perhaps someone could explain to me how within a week of my decision to follow a wiccan path, a wart started to grow near the tip of my right index finger?

I Feel That When Addressing This Question, You Must First Address The... Sep 26th. at 8:38:19 pm EDT

Aaron (San Diego, California US) Age: 26 - Email

I feel that when addressing this question, you must first address the issue of what a leader is. Inherently, a leader leads, and doesn't need to be "appointed." I don't believe that just because you are elected to a POSITION that you are neccessarily a good leader. As a leader, I feel our president is thoroughly horrible. In fact, regardless of the horrific terror that has been brought upon our country, most of our "leaders" are horrible. They are in majority rich, old, white men driven by greed. Not very representative of our country, I think.

I believe that if the Pagan community doesn't have a leader yet, it wasn't meant to. However, I believe someday (soon) we will. Someone will eventually feel strongly enough about Pagan causes and address it en masse with mass appeal. That person would have to be very well read, very articulate, and extremely media saavy. That's what it will take for a legitimate Pagan leader to be taken seriously by the public at large. Where is this person? Who knows. Maybe it'll be a high profile celebrity, or maybe it'll be a Pagan politician. The truth is, who ever steps out in a big way and really LEADS--as a Pagan--will have to be resiliant and strong and be prepared for public scrutiny from such people as Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell, among others.

In these trying times, I believe that each of us are leaders. By doing what you can, and educating those that you are able to, the truth will spread, and peace will reign. These are unstable times, yet, among the chaos, blues skies are visible. We must be patient. We must be strong. We must be empathic.

Maybe The Big Names Weren't On Tv, But That Doesn't Mean That... Sep 26th. at 9:08:27 pm EDT

Peter Paddon (Los Angeles, California US) Age: 37 - Email

Maybe the big names weren't on TV, but that doesn't mean that Pagans weren't doing anything. Sothern California Covenant of the Goddess, for example, held a raffle and auction and - despite extremely short notice - raised over $5000 for the relief charities. The event was preceded by a drum circle and memorial service. Many there had been working to guide the souls of those taken by the tragedy, and not just Pagans, to where they were meant to be. the organizers of Pagan Pride in LA cancelled their event and instead held a candle vigil.

I don't think we need elected leaders as much as we need official representatives with a mandate to let the world know about us, but without the authority to dictate what we do. COG and other organizations like it are beginning to do a good job of this. Personally, I don't think writing a book is a good qualification for being declared a leader - after all, I've had two published myself, and I'd hate to be considered an authority. My only concern is that if the job comes into existence, it doesn't go to those who are hungry for it. It shouldn't be something you can put yourself forward for, but rather something you are nominated for, by people outside your own coven or group. Ideally, the job should be done by someone who really doesn't want the job - they can get time off for good behaviour! you only have to look at the idiot Kevin Carlyon in the UK to see where self-appointed leaders will get us.

In my humble opinion, the best thing would be for a council of community leaders to vote in national representatives. Unfortunately, this would be a huge undertaking, and ultimately futile if the media or government refused to acknowledge the position. THAT would be the really hard part.

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