The opinions posted on the Pagan Perspective pages are those of individuals and are not neccessarily shared or endorsed by the Witches' Voice inc.
Posted: Sep. 8, 2002
||This Page Viewed: 7,003,038
Vox Q Stats|
Times Viewed: 32,767
Lurker/Post Ratio: 425 to 1
Question of the Week: 62 - 10/15/2001
What Are Your Thoughts On The Current "War on Terrorism"?
On Sunday, the United States, Britain and the NATO Coalition launched the first overt military strikes against targets in Afghanistan. Do you agree or disagree with this action? As the United States continues to build a worldwide coalition of nations to fight a 'war on terrorism', what are your thoughts on the current military buildup, 'war on terrorism' can be effective? Does it worry you that no 'end' to such a program has been defined? Are you satisfied with the amount of information that the public has been given on the operations? What sort of outcome would YOU like to see? NOTE: This is a very emotionally charged topic. Like all segments of society, Pagans can be liberals or conservatives, hawks or doves.
| Reponses: There are 77 responses posted to this question.
|| Reverse Sort
| I Am Seriously Disappointed In A Lot Of Witches, Pagans, Druids,etc... ||Oct 8th. at 2:41:36 pm EDT|
|Dragonzize (North Augusta,, South Carolina US) ||Age: 50 |
I am seriously disappointed in a lot of witches, pagans, druids, etc. The Goddess knows that something has to be important enough to believe in, to fight for.To die for.Not oil, not gold, but our lives, our way of life. Our freedom to be Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. is that important alone. I am a warrior Witch. I will do healing and I will do hexing. I will let smarter people than I decide how much military is needed and when the war is over. The Office of Homeland Defense scares the heck out of me. We must watch it carefully. In closing, I am just one of many voices, but together we are the. Voice. Blessed Be.
| It's Been Said By Many In Our Communities That We Must Evaluate... ||Oct 8th. at 2:46:40 pm EDT|
|Vince Conaway (Cincinnati, Ohio US) ||Age: 24 |
It's been said by many in our communities that we must evaluate any actions of the US for signs of what we did to deserve this attack. And they're right. What is wrongly implied by this is that there is any way we can modify our behavior to make the threat go away. Actions and interactions of the US government resulted in an attack on our people. But there's little we can do now to erase the hatred our past actions has already created.
We've supported puppet governments when it suited our purposes, overlooked human rights abuses when those perpetrating those abuses have been useful to us, and actively championed those who've spurned international laws and conventions for our country's gain. Have we done wrong? Yes. Have we done enough wrong to deserve the attack on our country? Certainly not.
And, of course, the big question is whether we can do enough 'right' to overcome the ill-will now directed towards us. By supporting Israel we've made enemies in the Middle East, but does anyone seriously think that by ceasing that support all the built-up hatred will simply disappear? We've put heavy santions on Iraq, but if we lift those sanctions will terrorist organizations suddenly revert to pacifism?
We need to evaluate what we've done in the past, but for now our mission is clear. We must fight fire with fire. We had a role in creating the hatreds that lead to the attacks against us, but we cannot rebuild from new ground until we've weeded out and destroyed those who would destroy us. Only then can changing our patterns help us. For bin Laden and those who support him, it's simply too late.
| I'ts Hard To Imagine What Happened When "america Stiked Back" But I... ||Oct 8th. at 3:36:12 pm EDT|
|Drakon (Ruckersville, Virginia US) ||Age: 18 - Email |
I'ts hard to imagine what happened when "America stiked back" but I knew it was coming. I saw it in the eyes of our leaders. I also know it is far from over. Although I think that strikes where nessicary my heart goes out to the people of afganistan for all the hardship they must go through now. My only hope is that this ends quickly and fiarly before america resorts to unessicary and devestating attacks. Last time America was attacked in such a manner we droped Atomic weapons and wiped out two cities full on innocent people. I can only pray that this dosen't happen again. I hope that those in power realise that brute force will get us no where. and that all people can come together has human rather than define ourselves by our country, color or creed.
So mote it be
| I Agree With Many That Something Needs To Be Done About And... ||Oct 8th. at 5:46:28 pm EDT|
|Michael F Holland (corvus) (Gary, Indiana US) ||Age: 30 - Email |
I agree with many that something needs to be done about and in retaliation for the Events of 9-11-2001. But, I am very conflicted about what should be done. I strongly believe that airstrikes and artillery will have little effect on terrorism, other than perhaps swelling the ranks of the terrorists with families of those killed as "collateral damage".
If military action must be taken, the only methods that do not bring us down to the level of terrorists or lower is ground action. But in recent history Americans have shown ourselves unwilling to put up with the loss of American lives. As the former Soviets learned the hard way, a ground war in Afganistan is likely to make the SNAFU of Vietnam look like a cake walk.
I am not convinced that we as a nation are willing to spend the number of lives necessary to wipe out every Islamic fundalmentalist with leanings toward terrorism, and i even further doubt we have the resources to find only those who would engage in acts of terror. Thus unless our intelligence community shows itself as being better at removing its collective thumb from its ass, this is likely to become a war of genocide against all of Islam.
I fear that within months, atrocities committed by both sides will make peace virtually impossible.
I am NOT willing to spent that many lives, on either side.
The only other option is even more frowned upon by the world as a whole, especially world leaders. Assassination, quiet, fast and fed by good intel, its efficacy has been proven time and again. It is retail murder, aimed only at leaders.
Those leaders of course prefer the wholesale murder of their own and each other's citizens that is war. So of course that is the method we will use.
But maybe i am just a cynical bastard.
| There Are In The End Two Sides To This Question, And I... ||Oct 8th. at 7:41:46 pm EDT|
|Richard Bateman (Denver, Colorado US) ||Age: 24 |
There are in the end two sides to this question, and I find myself supporting both of them. On the one hand, the terrorist group(s) responsible for the Sep 11th attacks were morally wrong for what they did. Killing our innocent civilians and celebrating about it and then crying foul when there is a chance we can (and probably will) do the same defies logic. A crime, either against one particular facet of society or against a society at large, should be punished. But that raises an interesting moral issue we as Americans must answer: when is enough enough? By retaliating, we commit crimes against others, both individuals and societies. Who is to say that our cause is more just than their cause? This is an unbelieveably complex moral dilemma. I did not enjoy any part of watching the attacks or the hours of coverage afterwards of rescue workers or victims' families. I was as mad as anyone else in this country was. But in my mind, killing is killing. In many dedications, Pagans state we are allowed to do what we will, as long as we harm none. We are all members of one race and one global community. By continuing the path of hatred and killing, we are killing parts of ourselves. At the same time, I am not advocating a pacifistic approach to the situation. Something must be done, the terrorist groups must not be allowed to think we will sit idly by while they kill thousands of our countrymen.
Many points have been made. I question what President Bush will do when Israelis attack Palestinians again. Who is the decisive voice in determining what is terrorism and what is not? What happens the next time the IRA detonates a car bomb? Will Tomahawk cruise missles and B-2 bombs reduce IRA strongholds and training facilities? I doubt it. As Americans, we have often times looked aside when it fit our convenience. I fear nothing has changed as a result of Sep 11th and we will continue to look away when it suits our momentary fancy. Then not only will we be killers, we will be hypocrites as well.
I also fear the fact that there is no set time limit on our overseas activities. Again, who will make the decision that enough missle attacks is enough? When most of the American public wants to stop? Or when the few in power have had their fun pushing their agendas across the world? Another question pops up: what is the "proof" that bin-Laden is THE man to go after? Many Americans thought it was bin-Laden that orchestrated the Oklahomoa City bombing, and that turned out to be an American. I for one would love to look at all the evidence the world's governments have put together, just so I might feel more comfortable attacking groups of people halfway across the world.
I hope wisdom and patience can guide our thoughts and actions in the future.
| I Support The War. 911 Was An Attack On The U.s. And... ||Oct 8th. at 8:00:30 pm EDT|
|John ("New Naumkeag", Ohio US) ||Age: 34 - Email |
I support the war.
911 was an attack on the U.S. and on the whole civilized world. The perpetrators were just more thugs who espouse totalitarianism: this time (instead of fascism or communism), it's the gross perversion of Islam. And this time, the thugs resort to terrorism instead of conventional war.
But, it's the same old theme we saw in the 20th century: totalitarians hate the system of freedom and opportunity that the U.S. and the civilized world stand for. That's because freedom and opportunity threaten totalitarians: people who are free and who have opportunity are free to reject --and they do reject-- totalitarianism.
And so they hate us. They want us dead. Their alleged political grievances are just excuses. If the U.S. tomorrow recognized a Palestinian state, nuked Israel, and converted en masse to Islam --all the time saying "I'm sorry; I'm sorry; I'm sorry."-- it wouldn't make a shred of difference to the terrorists. They hate us for our matrix of freedom and opportunity; they hate us for the "depravity" of allowing people to reject their tyrranical, ruthless, cruel perverted vision of --and plans for-- humanity; and they hate us for the fact that free people *do* reject their ways when able.
They hate us so much that they made it their openly stated goal to kill us and to kill any who support us.
And on 911, they acted on their word by murdering 6000+ innocent people. And they will continue to try to kill us till either they or we are dead.
This is a just war and more. This is a fight, and it is a fight to the death.
So, first we must kill Al Qaeda and the Taliban. And, we must destroy the means (military, financial, etc.) of them and their supporters to likewise wage such attacks. And, we must hunt and kill some of their supporters for justice and for an example.
And after this "cancer" is killed, we need to perform some "chemotherapy" on the rest of the world: to clean out the other thugs (here and abroad) who are ready to commit terrorism. Simultaneously, we'll need to build up and help out the world's wretched so they won't be tempted to become terrorists too.
Altogether, it seems like this war will be 1/3 conventional war, 1/3 criminal law enforcement, and 1/3 nation building. And it will take a long time to win it. In this early stage, though, it's good that we are attacking Al Qaeda and the Taliban. First things first.
I'm sorry for the innocents in Afghanistan who will suffer; hopefully, though, the survivors will be liberated from their tyrants.
But, I'm not sorry at all --not one damn bit-- that the members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban will soon be crispy critters by means of war. Hmm? I wonder if they will be very surprised when they discover that something other than paradise awaits them beyond the veil: the planes of the hells reserved for murderers, especially those who mock the Name of God when they commit murder.
And, as a Witch, I have zero problem casting magic to support this war, including cursing and binding the perpetrators of the attacks of 911.
For more see my website: http://wiccans.com/host/john_littlew/index.htm
| Imagine Someone Broke In Your House While You And Your Family Where... ||Oct 8th. at 8:24:22 pm EDT|
|Pandora (Orlando, Florida US) ||Age: 16 - Email |
Imagine someone broke in your house while you and your family where sitting around the dinner table. This person has killed six of your loved ones. They start to attack your youngest child. Do you tell this criminal, "No! Stop! We can talk about this! Can't we just kiss and make-up? I know I must have done something wrong to you to make you do this! Forgive me! Please, let's just love each other!"? Or do you reach for the steak knife, say a little prayer, and jump on him with all your strength?
This is what is happening in American right now on a much larger scale. Our daughters and sons have been brutally slaughtered by madmen who pervert a beautiful religion. Their leaders has said he won't be finished until America is in complete ruin. Until millions of our children have been killed. Knowing that, can we even consider just sitting back and trying to strike a bargain with these terrorists? These are different from terrorists who attack for money, or for recognition, or for any other reason. These terrorists want nothing tangible from us. They want us dead and our way of life destroyed. We cannot afford to strike that bargain.
I fully support a war. Sometimes, war is the only way to find peace. I will work magic for the sons and daughters of America in the Armed Forces. I will pray that those who are innocent in Afghanistan will be spared from carnage. But I am not all love and kindness. I will also curse bin Laden, the Taliban, and whoever would support them. I will curse them with every curse I know. And when bin Laden's body is dragged out from beneath the rubble of some cave, I will smile.
| I Have Heard Many Opinions On The Attacks Of The Eleventh And... ||Oct 8th. at 8:37:49 pm EDT|
|Moxy Kitty Girl (Knightdale - Greater Raleigh, North Carolina US) ||Age: 16 - Email |
I have heard many opinions on the attacks of the eleventh and the subsiquent retaliation sunday and today, but most people seem to be making an easy but ultimately(in my opinion) harmful assumption.
We assume that these people are monsters.
We say that they are ruthless, insane, brainwashed cowards whose fanatical beleif in their own perverted version of the creator led them to such madness that they heartlessly murdered thousands.
And oh, that would be so easy, so easy and painless to beleive, when compared with what may actually be true. That they are rational human beings. That they beleived, with every inch of their souls, that what they were doing was right, was God's plan, for how else would they be able to carry it out? How else could such a thing possibly succeed?
Which is exactly what we are asking ourselves.
Perhaps the gods were watching, but could not stop it, perhaps they did not care, but then again...
Perhaps they cared, they lessened the blow, they saved many thousands while taking the rest to the next plane, perhaps they took only those who were meant to die, whose deaths would help to make america part of the world and unify the world with common pain.
Perhaps they chose to unify the world, even though they knew it meant there would be a war.
And the terrorists? I may-or may not-have a better idea of their opinions, of their mindset, than most americans. On the morning of september tenth, I... was... one of them, if only for a moment. I Felt one of their mind as my own, and it terrified me. It terrified me because it was human, because there was pain, because there was such a since of _righteousness_ in that mind, in that thought.
They are human, they are us, and that is terrifying.
The mind I saw had seen more than a dozen close friends injured or killed because of war, poverty, and the sad state that Afghanistan is in now... and he focused all of that hate, all of that pain, on the US. It was truth, it was life to him...these lies...
"The United States weakens the middle east, they support their allies the Israeli, and laugh at our poverty. They seek to make us weak because we are muslim, but they will be shown. We shall be a nation more devoted to Allah than any other, and He shall look upon us in favor and help us to destroy our enemies.
"The United States thinks we are not a threat, they think we can be treated like dogs and will never strike back, but our will is strong and allah is with us, for we shall overcome their oppression and destroy the capitalist dogs who seek to destroy us
"They call themselves 'free', but that freedom is sin in far to many forms to be counted. This nation of the United States is an afront to Allah and must be destroyed."
This hatred(which I have only now been able to express in words) is really only an outlet for the frustration that many people in the mid-east feel. Why do you think Osama bin Laden spends his money on terrorist camps rather than helping the poor? The horrors of everyday life make thousands of people more than willing to sacrafice themselves if they think it will make things better for those left behind. bin Laden is using people's emotions and twisting them to his uses. He would never help the Afghanistan people because that would rid him of the readily available troops he has now, yet he maintains a positive public image through his relations with the Taliban, and yet they support him because his wealth and popularity keep _them_ in power. It is a viscious circle feeding upon itself.
And how, How can these people find it so easy to hate us? Simple. They have never seen us, never known us, and so to them We are the monsters.
We are all the same, we are all human, and I sometimes wonder if we are all not monsters.
But I have faith in the Gods.
| The Unfortunate Reality Is That Sociopaths Only Understand Physical Force; Reason And... ||Oct 8th. at 10:07:38 pm EDT|
|Dia Griene (Hemet, California US) ||Age: 43 |
The unfortunate reality is that sociopaths only understand physical force; reason and logic are useless. Which means that military measures are unavoidable. Hopefully, though, the military end of things will be completed as quickly as possible with the smallest loss of human life possible, and the Afghan people can be helped to reclaim their land and lives. We are realizing as a nation that our security is interwoven with the security of all other nations, which is why we are working hard to minimize civilian casualities and not further inflame anti-American sentiment. Peace to us all. Om Shanti Om.
| War Is Never The Answer. War Will Never Bring Peace. Violence Only... ||Oct 8th. at 10:16:57 pm EDT|
|Morgan (Granite City, Illinois US) ||Age: 21 |
War is NEVER the answer. WAR will NEVER bring peace. Violence only produces more violence.
The people dying out there because of this "war on terrorism" aren't terrorists. The ones who are suffering are the people of Afghanistan, the women and children of Afghanistan who already have suffered the worst.
The attack of september 11 wasn't an attack on the civilized world and all that is represents. That attack was exclusively to the USA because of years of intrusive politics in the Middle East, just as the attack on Afghanistan isn«t an attack to the Islam. Neither of these actions can be supported. Both (september 11, october 7) are acts of terrorism that will only disrupt even more the balance on our planet. Both are acts so complicated that we can barely understand the reasons and implications behind them. And this should be the main task of the mass media: to inform the people of the world about the real causes of what is happening today. But, as always, they are being manipulated by the ones who have the power and the money.
And what about "this operation will last for years"? USA says it wants to erradicate terrorism from the face of the world. THey say that there is a network of terrorism inside 60 countries. 60 COUNTRIES!!! Is USA going to throw bombs in all those countries????
This "war" is just another act produced by the hatred and intolerance consuming our society and is just going to make this hatred and intolerance grow faster and deeper. DO NOT TEACH YOUR CHILDREN TO HATE SOMEONE THEY DONT EVEN KNOW. DO NOT TEACH THEM TO THINK THAT A WAR IS GOING TO END WITH THE VIOLENCE AND HATRED OF OUR SOCIETY. DONT LET THEM GROW WITH THE IDEA THAT THEIR PARENTS SUPPORT A WAR THAT IS KILLING MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE.
WHO OUT THERE CAN THROW THE FIRST STONE? Certainly not the United States...
| I Completely Disagree With The Use Of Force. Currently We Are The... ||Oct 8th. at 11:57:07 pm EDT|
|Billie (Fort Hood, Texas US) ||Age: 23 |
I completely disagree with the use of force. Currently we are the richest country in the world, picking on, and blowing up the poorest country. I personally feel that there are other ways of going about this. I am the spouse of someone in the military, so I support our men and women in combat, but not the cause. I think that we need to change our policies towards other nations, and not force our way of life on others. We have lost nearly 6000 innocent people, so why go and kill 6000 more? Does not seem logical to me. There is no way we will ever be able to eliminate terrorism, there will always be a terrorist somewhere in the world. Killing Osama Bin Laden will do nothing but enrage his followers. Either way, there will still be attacks on innocent civilians, no matter what we do.
| First Of All, Let Me Say That In My Heart, I Am... ||Oct 9th. at 1:24:28 am EDT|
|the Tarotlaydee (Clearwater, Florida US) ||Age: 45 - Email |
First of all, let me say that in my heart, I am not a "hawk." Even though I am a US Air Force veteran and my career field while in the military was as an Intelligence Operations Specialist with the Strategic Air Command. I was stationed within the US for a short time and then for the longest assignment in my tour of duty, I was stationed in Athens, Greece. This was the early 80's and a particularly volatile time in the Middle East and Greece. Greece walked the fence between Socialism and Communism and had just finished up a coup in their country. This was right after the release of our hostages in Iran and also the shooting on our pilots by the Libyan AF. I basically provided the intelligence support for reconnaissance missions in the East Med theatre. It was my job to know what was going on in this area and to provide this information to the aircrews and commanding officers. I loved my job!
The amount of terrorism and terrorist acts kept me quite busy all the time. While I was stationed in Athens there was the bombing of the embassy in Beirut, the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, the attempted asassination of one of our classifed couriers that did his run between the US Embassy in Athens and Hellenikon AB, the bombing of Bobby's 2 Bar in Glyfada, Greece (near the base), the downing of one of our F-14's and the pilot's capture by the Syrians (later released due to the negotiations of Rev Jesse Jackson), and many other minor incidents and skirmishes. Many of the terrorist groups had operations offices in Athens, including the PLO (Palestinian), ASALA (Armenian)and the Shiites (Muslim extremists), and the Nov 17 (Greeks against the American presence in Greece). All of the above and the daily protests against us having a military presence in Greece, protests by the Communist party in Athens and the constant shelling of Beirut by the Israelis and their air war, the Syrians and their SA-5's pointed at us, and the Libyans and their threat...we were all in constant danger of reprisals and of having our aircrews shot down.
On a Sat night on Feb 2nd, 1985, I left Bobby's 2 bar to head to the base to work a mid-shift. I left about 10 or so, due into work about 1130PM. At about 2 AM I got the news that Bobbys 2 had been bombed, no casualties but a lot of injuries. At 2AM, the bar would have been filled to capacity with mostly military men and women and their dependants and a small percentage of European people. My friends were all hurt...and no one had ever claimed responsibility for this incident. Two Arabic men had been sitting in the bar...had walked in and ordered a drink from my friend Claire who was tending bar that night. They had a suitcase. That was all she could remember. Bobby's 2 was a perfect target. Why no one was killed in that tiny packed beyond capacity bar, I will never know. It was practically leveled.
Terrorism is not new...it started in the 70's and has continued without abating since then. These Islam extremists have existed for a long time, in different groups and factions and now they have united into one dangerous group, the "al Queda." The enemy is the same, only called by a different name. Bin Laden is only their mouthpeace at this time. There is ethnic cleansing and a complete re-writing of history within Afghanistan. The blowing up of the ancient Bhudda statues this summer and the raping and pillaging of the villages has only been hinted at. If we kill bin Laden, another leader will rise up. They call us the great Satan, because we provide support to Israel and take their oil and other natural resources. They smile when they kill and if they kill enough of us, they go straight to Allah in the arms of Mohammed and sit at Allah's right hand for eternity. Their religious zeal cannot be compared to any other in the world.
Our country and people have taken enough! They are calling the Twin Towers the first act of terrorism on American soil! NOT TRUE! Embassies and military installations ARE American soil, also! We have taken a lot of abuse from these governments, factions and fanatical leaders! We have let these people into our country on student visas, made deals and Status of Forces Agreements with these governments and they flash their cash (from oil) and get whatever they want from us. Used us and abused us to the max! Do not tell me to be unprejudiced! Do not say to me that I should not suspect my Arab neighbors. The members of these terrorist cells ARE our neighbors...we have let them in and they have assimilated into our culture so well that they have been the enemy walking around among us. They know our secrets and they know our Achilles heel.
I DO not think that pilots or flight attendants should be flying unless they have a government security clearance. If they cannot be cleared because of legal problems or a drinking habit, they should not be flying. They SHOULD be armed and given a chance to protect themselves. I think our country needs to provide the maximum amount of security on flights. I think they should be providing the SAME security measures on ALL forms of mass transit, such as Amtrak and commuter trains and busses. These will be the next targets and the security on these forms of travel is lax. I also think that all cities should be doing daily checks of the bridges and overpasses and restrict the areas around these structures, as these will also be the next targets. All water sources should be checked by bioenvironmental teams every day and areas around these sources should be restricted. Our government needs to keep things classified and hidden from us...but need to provide us with a degree of safety and do not think they are doing a good job of that...one minute telling us to go to Disneyworld and later in the same day telling us that more terrorist acts are likely.
I for one, do not see this military action ending soon. I support the President decision(he is just a figurehead, his daddy and Cheney are calling the shots) and what he is "pretending" to do, he was not my choice, however. I still believe that he stole the last election. In this war, if we can eliminate the Taliban and restore the Afghan people to their country and put their King in place there, than that could be good for that region. But these Islamic extremists are everywhere. And when this is done, another skirmish or small war will take place somewhere else and this will have a chain reaction. Terrorism will not end in our lifetimes. It will continue and we can only be vigilant here in this country. We need to stop letting people in. Put a cap on the student visas and the supposed business trips. Scrutinize EVERYONE! I will not feed the fear...but I will be watchful. And I will protect and defend myself and my family if I have to. That is my right as an American.
Web Site Content (including: text - graphics - html - look & feel)
Copyright 1997-2013 The Witches' Voice Inc. All rights reserved
Note: Authors & Artists retain the copyright for their work(s) on this website.
Unauthorized reproduction without prior permission is a violation of copyright laws.
Website structure, evolution and php coding by Fritz Jung on a Macintosh G5.
Any and all personal political opinions expressed in the public listing sections (including, but not restricted to, personals, events, groups, shops, Wrenâ€™s Nest, etc.) are solely those of the author(s) and do not reflect the opinion of The Witchesâ€™ Voice, Inc. TWV is a nonprofit, nonpartisan educational organization.
Sponsorship: Visit the Witches' Voice Sponsor Page for info on how you
can help support this Community Resource. Donations ARE Tax Deductible.
The Witches' Voice carries a 501(c)(3) certificate and a Federal Tax ID.
Mail Us: The Witches' Voice Inc., P.O. Box 341018, Tampa, Florida 33694-1018 U.S.A.