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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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110. What’s Your Favorite Element? - [119]

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105. Are Pagans TOO Individualistic? - [56]

104. Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq? - [258]

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100. Why Are You A Pagan or Heathen? - [142]

99. What Moon Phase Are You In? - [70]

98. Would You Live In A Haunted House? - [166]

97. What Natural Objects Are On Your Altar? - [103]

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7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

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2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 25,800,414  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 233

Lurker/Post Ratio: 140 to 1

Question of the Week: 1 - 8/7/2000

Who are you going to vote for and why?

Which political platform or candidate are you leaning towards? Do you think that a level of political involvement is important to pagans? Are you registered to vote, will you vote and who -if you don't mind telling the world- are you planning to vote for (or against)?

 Reponses:   There are 233 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

Quite Frankly I Am Frightened. George W. Bush Is One Of The... Aug 16th. at 11:40:50 am EDT

Edana (Thousand Oaks, California US) Age: 24 - Email

Quite frankly I am frightened. George W. Bush is one of the most narrow minded candidates we've had in a long time, and were he to be elected into office I would worry about not only religious freedoms, but women's rights as well. Not only through laws he could pass or block, but most importantly through his appointment of Supreme Court Justices, of which three are expected in the upcoming term.

I have been reading through these postings, and I see that many of us are considering voting for candidates from the Green party, the Libertarian party or the Reform party. These are all worthy candidates, but the sad truth of the matter is that none of these parties have yet built up enough notoriety or political clout to have a genuine chance at the Oval Office. Even if we could get all pagans to agree to pool our votes for just one of them the only effect it would have would be splitting the left wing vote and providing a consolidated vote for the radical right. In essence, getting the above-mentioned George W. elected.

I have been known to say "I would vote for a fish to keep George W. out of office." While the fish part is facetious, I am very serious about doing all I can to keep Bush out of office. I ask you all to examine the candidates once more, with particular thought to what we can realistically do to further our pagan values politically. Vote for the up and coming parties that you feel truly aligned with in your local elections. But when it comes to the presidency, I beg you to place your vote where it will have the most impact. My vote will go to Al Gore. Not only for the reasons mentioned above, but also because I believe he is a forthright and ethical person whose values are closely aligned with my own, especially regarding religious freedoms, women's rights, and environmentalism.

I hope to see you all at the polls on election day.

I'm Afraid To Say, I Really Know Nothing About Any Of The... Aug 16th. at 12:19:37 pm EDT

Moon (Houston, Texas US) Age: 38

I'm afraid to say, I really know nothing about any of the parties except for Gore & Bush. After reading through other's opinions, I will be taking a look at some of the website addresses that were posted for the other parties.

Yes, I will vote and most likely it will be Gore. I am neither Republican nor Democrat - I am my own. Unfortunately, even with the smaller parties running, our next President will probably be either Al Gore or George Bush and the obvious lesser of the two evils is Al Gore. Although I live in Texas, where Bush is now Governor, it will not make a difference in my opinion of him. Granted, our Texas schools have become the best in the nation. I'm not sure how much of this Bush had to do with it. One thing I do know, and my "womanly intuition", which is usually right on the mark, tells me that Bush is just downright horrid! I feel he says one thing but means another. One thing I DO KNOW, Bush is not the man for a country that is wanting to change and be a country that is . . . "for the people, by the people". Bush seems to think quite highly of the death penalty, even tho he may argue this, Texas has put more people to death than I have EVER heard of! Granted, true, some of them may have very well deserved the punishment they received, but they will get their just punishment some day. Trust me, the stories are true about our prisons! There are so many INNOCENT people in prison here that it is truly sad. So my opinion is that Gore will be the best person to vote for.

IÕm Voting For Bush, For The Following Reasons. (and, Yes, IÕm Registered... Aug 16th. at 8:21:00 pm EDT

John (Not Stated) Age: 0 - Email

IÕm voting for Bush, for the following reasons.

(And, yes, IÕm registered to vote: as an independent. I wanted to vote for John McCain, but oh wellÉ)

1. I do not fear a loss of religious freedom. Yes, Gov. Bush may well nominate conservative judges for the Supreme Court and other federal courts.. But, I do not think such nominations, if approved by the Senate, would erode or endanger religious freedom in the United States -- including for pagans in America. Religious freedom is a basic element of the U.S. Constitution. For the last 200+ years (especially the last 60+ years), cases involving religious freedom have used objective measures (a creed, a code and a cultus) to determine whether a religion exists. If a court determines as an issue of fact that, by objective measures, a religion exists, the religion and its adherents must, as an issue of law, be covered by the freedom of religion. That is the law in America, regardless of whether the court or the general populace adheres or even likes the religion in question. See, for example, Church of Lukumi Bablu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah, 508 US 520 (1993) or Frazee v. Illinois Dept. Of Employment Security, 489 U.S. 829 (1989) or, especially, U.S. v. Ballard, 322 U.S. 78 (1944). These cases were determined by a Supreme Court whose membersÕ views have (over the years) covered the spectrum of jurisprudence, from conservative to liberal, and still the right of religious freedom has been vigorously upheld. So, unless the Supreme Court is willing to overturn this fundamental area of constitutional law, one that reaches back to the birth of the American nation, I am not concerned about erosion of religious liberties within the United States under a Bush administration or under his nominees for federal courts. Furthermore, in the last 2-3 years, the Republican Party as a whole (Bob Barr excepted) has backed away from its previous support of the theocratic leanings of fundamentalist Christians, and American fundamentalist Christians seem to have (overall) become resigned to "witnessing" in private rather than through political life. Thus, I do not fear erosion (actual or attempted) of religious freedom under a Republican
administration. Rather, I think education that is soberly and reasonably conducted is key for those who are apparently ignorant of the fact the Witchcraft and other forms of paganism truly are religions (such as Gov. Bush seemed to be when he made his unfortunate remark a year or so ago).

2. I think Gov. Bush would be a more capable president. Both Gov. Bush and Vice President Gore seem to have equal integrity, intelligence, and over-all background to qualify for the presidency. However, Gov. Bush has charisma; Vice President Gore does not. While charisma is not the only element composing leadership, it is a critical element in leadership within a democratic system of government -- in which people must be persuaded to go one way or another. Frankly, I think Gov. Bush possesses enough charisma to successfully persuade members of Congress and other persons and therefore to capably preside over the nation; equally frankly, I think Vice President Gore does *not* possess sufficient charisma, and I think he would therefore be an incapable or ineffective or otherwise politically weak president.

3. I tend to support the Republican Party as a practical expression of my libertarian views. While I sympathize with the goals and passions of the Democrats (and even the Greens), I generally think that solutions to problems, insuring freedom, and conducting life overall are better accomplished when government is *out* of peopleÕs lives to the extent that such is practicable, i.e. when government is *limited.* On the other hand, the Libertarian party cannot be expected to win (and, I wouldnÕt want them to win anyway: from the few Libertarians I have met, they strike me as being closet anarchists rather than supporters of *limited* government.) So, as a practical matter, I generally vote Republican.

I Haven't Made My Final Decision Yet, But I'm Definately Leaning Towards... Aug 16th. at 9:33:34 pm EDT

Fiona (Durham, North Carolina US) Age: 31

I haven't made my final decision yet, but I'm definately leaning towards either Nader or Browne. I have struggled for months with the idea of the "lesser of two evils" between Gore and Bush, but was afraid to "throw my vote away" on another candidate. But then, it occured to will we ever break free from this faux two party system (like they're really all that different anymore) if we are all afraid to vote outside of it. None of the potential "Third Parties" will ever gain ground in such a manor if we don't support them. So, I have decided this year to vote for what I want in a leader, not against what I fear. My ultimate candidate may not win, but at least I'll know I truly did my part to make a difference.

Political Involvement Is Certainly Important For All People, But Most Especially For... Aug 16th. at 11:49:03 pm EDT

Jack McKnife (North Hollywood, California US) Age: 33 - Email

Political involvement is certainly important for all people, but most especially for a social minority like pagans: if you don't turn on to politics, politics will turn on you. While there isn't nearly as much difference between the two major candidates as there should be, there IS a difference. And since the next president will almost ceratinly appoint at least one Supreme Court Justice (and the court is one appointee from a conservative majority), this minor difference becomes paramount. The opinion that these appointments will not affect your freedom of religion are undercut (nay, rendered absurd!) by Bush statements that "witchcraft is not a religion." Therefore, in his publicly stated opinion, you have NO religious rights. You are NOT protected by the Constitution according to George W. Bush. Any pagan who votes for Bush is tantamount to a Jew voting for Hitler. But hey, at least under Hitler the trains ran on time, right?

For 33 years I've been a proud Texan, but now I'm not so sure. Out of 50 states, we're 49th in health care for women, 50th in health care for children, 50th in teacher salaries (including benefits), 48th in high school completion, 48th in spending for the Arts, 49th in spending for the environment, and the disgraceful list goes on. But hey, we're 1st in executions, 1st in greenhouse gas emissions, 1st in pollution from manufacturing, 1st in pollution from industries in violation of the Clean Air Act, 1st in expense of home insurance, and 1st in elderly people stripped of Medicaid insurance. And the disgraceful list goes on. Gee, can George bring his style of government to our whole country? For your sake, I hope not. If George runs this country like he ran any of the oil businesses he owned, we'll be bankrupt and sold off before his first term is over.

I can't in good conscience ask people to vote for Gore either, instead of a third party. In fact, if you live in Texas, I highly encourage it. A candidate losing his home state is so unlikely to happen that a vote for Gore in Texas is as much a throw away as any. Thanks a lot, founding fathers, for the electoral college system-- whoever wins the state gets every single electoral ballot, and those are the only ones that really count. If you live in Texas, vote third party and make a statement that you're pissed about the fact that now BOTH major parties are beholden to corporate America instead of just one party. Even a five percent turn out for a third party candidate sends a real message to DC. But in the 48 states where electoral ballots are truly at stake...

If your conscience forces you to vote third party, I beg you NOT to vote Libertarian. While their views translate nicely into keeping your religious (and other personal) freedoms intact, they also favor complete de-regulation and an unrestricted free market. That translates very quickly and easily into the full scale rape of Mother Earth. They will stay out of your life, and they will also stay out of the lives of every oil baron, mining conglomerate, lumber comapny, fishery, etc. that depends upon environmental destructuction for their livlihood. If, as pagans, you have ANY reverence at all for this planet, please research the full Libertarian platform and consider what it really means for Mother Earth.

Blessed Be,

I Have Read Many Of The Responses Here, And While I Can... Aug 17th. at 10:34:00 am EDT

Daven (mka Eric Landrum) (Nashville, Tennessee US) Age: 32 - Email

I have read many of the responses here, and while I can see some value in the Green Party candidate (and a good friend of mine is voting for Nader) someone pointed out that such a move would split the vote and put George W in the White House.

Someone else said the Gore would not be good because nothing would get done. What's wrong with that? We have had previously innefective candidates and presidents before, look at Ford for the Lady's sake. From thinking about this, it seems to me that with the quick turn over in the political arena for our supreme leader (i.e. the President) one should look at this:

If none of the candidates can do a good job through lack of courage, lack of allies, or just lack of spine, then we should at least pick a candidate that won't make the situation worse. In my oppinion, the only person for the job at this point is Gore.

Besides, I remember 8 years ago, when debates like this were croping up all over the place and when Clinton was elected, there were screams of dismay. I seem to remember some of the rude jokes going around as well, and the fact that the Military had to teach their Commander in Chief how to salute. However, he grew into the job, just like every President we have had, and by the end of his second term, he had accomplished much. Gays in the Military are allowed to stay there, a National Healthcare system was explored, and proposed multiple times, and many other little changes that have had a tremendous impact upon our daily lives.

If Gore can't continue that trend (and I think he can), I don't want to see Bush in a position to start undoing all that good work. Nader, and all the other candidates can't muster the support in the Congress to carry more than just a handful of minor changes, and our Foreign Policy would disintigrate with any of them in office. Gore seems the most acceceptable to me for keeping things as they are, until another charismatic candidate can come along and start the upward momentum again.

I Am Thoroughly Amazed At The Number Of Pagans Who Claim They... Aug 17th. at 11:46:07 am EDT

Chrystabella -"The Dark Orchid" (Cleveland, Ohio US) Age: 36 - Email

I am thoroughly amazed at the number of pagans who claim they are going to vote for a third party candidate or even worse, Governor Bush. Bush has stated that he doesn't consider pagan faiths "real religions" and let us not forget that a vote for Bush is not merely a vote for the candidate alone, but a tacit endorsement for that candidates party's political agenda. The Republican party for some strange reason seems to attract a number of small "L" libertarians and independents, but make no is the "fundies"(right wing fundamentalists)who call the shots in that party when it comes down to deciding what direction the party will take regarding policy issues. Have we so soon forgotten Rep. Bob Barr (R-Ga) speaking out against the freedom of worship rights of pagans in the military? How long do you believe any politician of any ideological persuasion would last in office if he or she made similar threats in the direction of Christian service personnel? Point blank, people...conservatives are our enemies. People who adhere to that political philosophy have been a scourge on the back of humanity since recorded history. It was people like those who were responsible for atrocities like the Spanish Inquisition, The Burning Times, Manifest Destiny, Jim Crow and the Holocaust. It is interesting to note that a pro Bush pagan took comfort in the fact that his freedoms of religion would be protected from right wing assault by the judicial interpretation of the Constitution and by legal precedent. I would ask that poster this question: Who does he think is going to appoint(and, in turn, confirm)the judges that will protect him? The answer would be akin to electing a fox to lead the hen house and then allowing that fox to appoint other members of his pack to safeguard the door. In light of this, in my opinion, the only viable choice for pagans of all persuasions can only be Al Gore and the Democratic Party. Third party candidates may be philosophically intriguing, but realistically they have no chance of winning and would only serve to place into power people(remember, not just a president)who have proven to be openly hostile to our interests.

Thank You

Gary A.'s Statements About Harry Browne Are Unfortunately So Far Off-base... Aug 17th. at 3:07:02 pm EDT

David K. M. Klaus (St. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 44 - Email

Gary A.'s statements about Harry Browne are unfortunately so far off-base as to be Newspeakish black=white and right=wrong; he ascribes some positions to Browne which are diametrically opposite of Browne's true positions.

Mr. A. states that Mr. Browne wishes abortion to be illegal. The reality is that the official Browne/Libertarian Party position is that the Constitution does not permit the federal government to take a position on abortion in either direction, either to pass laws aganst it or to provide money to pay for it.

I suppose if someone were to deliberately, willfully, blindly ignore Mr. Browne's unconditional opposition to the criminalizing of abortion, then he or she could say based on the above that he's against a woman's right to choose, but only if.

Mr. A. states that Mr. Browne is against gay rights. The reality is that the official Browne/Libertarian Party position is that anti-gay laws such as sodomy laws are an unconstitutional invasion of individual privacy and should be stricken from the books -- government shouldn't be in anybody's bedroom, either gay or straight.

Mr. Browne *is* against hate crime laws on the basis that murder is murder, and murder for hate is not more immoral than murder for money, and believes that owners of rental property should have final say over the renting of their property, even if their reasoning is stupid, ham-fisted, or whimsical, on the basis that government shouldn't be taking upon itself to decide the validity of personal decisions of property owners.

I suppose if someone were to deliberately, willfully, blindly ignore Mr. Browne's unconditional opposition to the criminalizing of gay sex, then he or she could say based on the above that he's against gay rights, but only if.

Aloha All, Well I Will Tell You I Am Not Voting For... Aug 17th. at 8:42:58 pm EDT

Caroline Bacon (Kailua, Hawaii US) Age: 25 - Email

Aloha all, Well i will tell you I am NOT voting for Governor George W. Bush.I am registered to vote and will be there in November. If you all have not already heard he has made June 10 offical Jesus day in Texas. What next if he becomes president, prayer in schools or maybe he will decide that the state does have a say in our religon and try and change the laws! Wow, something to think about. It is very scarry too as we have fought long and hard to come this far and we all must come together and be heard; now is the time to stand up for what we believe to be true. To read it for your selves go to this site...

Well, Right Off The Bat, The Answers. Yes, I've Been A Registered... Aug 18th. at 12:12:08 am EDT

Lyn G (Oceanside, California US) Age: 33 - Email

Well, right off the bat, the answers. Yes, I've been a registered voter since the day I turned 18. I don't lean toward parties or platforms, because the truth is no one can meet all my opinions with one party or platform. I will vote, and as of this moment it will be for VP Gore.

I've read a number of posts that refer to making a choice between the lesser of two evils. The truth, imho, is that we don't face a situation of a lesser of *two* evils, rather we face a reality of many of them. We have a two party system that will not change, no matter how many alternative parties we create. We have candidates who must campaign on looks and charisma while they avoid the issues for fear of losing the big dollar backers or losing the short attention spans of an apathetic public.

Get involved. Get your friends and family involved. Especially if they don't agree with your views. The only way we will have a system that works is if we put the people back into it. Some of the best lessons I ever learned came from discussing issues with people who didn't agree with my views.

I Will Be Voting For Al Gore. I Listened To His Speech... Aug 18th. at 2:45:23 am EDT

L. Norton (Livonia, Michigan US) Age: 45 - Email

I will be voting for Al Gore. I listened to his speech tonight, and that, along with other times I have seen or heard of his actions, has determined my vote. Frankly, i agree with his plans to preserve social security, i think that prescriptions should be covered by medicare, i believe in fixing the school system - the children are everyone's future, and I believe he will stand for ALL Americans, not just the Christians as George Jr. has indicated.

I firmly believe in the separation between church and state, Mr Bush treats this as a minor obstical to overcome in switching social services over to religious institutes. This will include religious practices, making religion part of the 'solution' and paying for this with Federal and State monies. I have no problem with my tax money going to social services. I do have a problem with those same social services being changed over to religious institutions so that the government can claim to provide these services as long as you go to the church that is handling them!

Also, the voucher program sponsored by many republicans embraces the idea that it is ok to leave a child behind in a troubled school system. I firmly believe that we need to fix the system - not throw away the kids who don't get into alternative schools. Once you leave the public school there is no guarantee of transporation or acceptance. Many parochial schools, that have signed agreements to accept students on a first come first serve basis, have found ways to get around this to keep the parishioners in first. They are still fighting these cases in courtrooms in various states. The children pay the price though!

I was under-impressed by the third party candidates.

I Feel That Everyone In This Country Should Be Politically Aware, Not... Aug 18th. at 2:59:43 am EDT

Glorianna Autumnstorm (Southern Calif, California US) Age: 29 - Email

I feel that everyone in this country should be politically aware, not just pagans. However, when issues that concern the pagan community are in the forefront, I think it is more important than ever for pagans to let their voices be heard. Some seats in the Supreme Court are going to become vacant within the next presidential term, and our choice of President will influence the type of people we have on the bench for many years to come. The make-up of the Supreme Court is going to be absolutely vital to pagans in the upcoming years, with issues like freedom of religion, prayer in schools, and a woman's right to choose hanging in the balance.

I personally am going to vote for Vice President Al Gore. When considering both of the candidates' views on the environment, religious freedom, etc... I can't imagine the alternative. I am behind Gore 100% and I do not consider him to be the lesser of two evils, as some have said. Gore is an environmental advocate, he believes in affordable health care for everyone, he plans to implement programs to sustain our economic good fortune rather than plunder it, he promotes freedom of religion, and he believes that the retirement age should stay where it is instead of being raised into the 70's. These are just a few of the things that are fresh in my mind after watching the convention, and they alone are very persuasive. Bush denies that Witchcraft/Wicca is even a genuine religion . . . and I have to say, that frightens me. With a few strategic placements in the Supreme Court, we could be living in the shadows again.

Am I leaning toward a particular candidate? I am hanging on to Al Gore for dear life! If the rest of you out there agree with me, I urge you to hang on for dear life too. Let your voice be heard . . . while voting for a member of the green party or libertarian party might make a great "statement", the reality is that those votes only take votes away from Gore, allowing Bush to press into the lead. Vote for one of the two candidates who acutally stand a chance of winning this election, and who will mostly likely control our futures for the next four to eight years! As the sayings go - I am a "Proud Patriotic Pagan", and "I am a witch . . . . and I vote"

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