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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,821,473  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 258

Lurker/Post Ratio: 127 to 1

Question of the Week: 104 - 3/24/2003

Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq?

Many people were initially for or against the possibility of a war in Iraq. Now that it is a reality and troops are on the ground, have you changed your mind or your position on the war?

Do you think that anti-war protests should cease? Do you think that an even greater divide has opened up between those who hold differing ideologies?

Do you think that the suspension of certain civil liberties for security reasons is appropriate during war time? Do YOU feel safer? Will the world be more secure because of this action?

What – if anything – concerns you the most about the war in Iraq?

 Reponses:   There are 258 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


I Uphold My Convictions Of Peace On Earth Apr 4th. at 2:11:44 am UTC

Wolf Kyzel (Illinois, U.S.A.) Age: 38 - Email


Peace is never wrong and war is never right. It would be completely hypocritical for someone who calls him/herself
Pagan to ever support a war.


My Point Of View Towards The War Against Iraq. Apr 4th. at 3:34:55 am UTC

ThunderLight (Miami, FL) Age: 14 - Email


I have always been a peace freak so my attitude towards war hasn't and will never change but I have to admit that different opinions about the war have separated the people. I find it unnecessary to fight because of something as inevitable as this war.


No They Haven't Apr 4th. at 4:31:46 am UTC

squib (oregon) Age: 33 - Email


i still think Hussein and his poisonous sons have forfeited their right to be members of the human race. i still think the US has a moral obligation to rid the world of the "man" (to use the term very loosely) , as we had a hand in bringing him to power in the first place.

I don't mind the peace protesting, or the pro-usa rallies. I do mind the word "nazi" being flung in all directions, mostly indescriminately (seems to cheapen the holocaust, doesn't it... ask any Jew what a nazi is) . I do mind seeing signs at rallies that say things like "We support our troops when they shoot their officers".

Civil liberties- suspending them is a bad idea, but a line needs to be drawn as to what consitutes treasonous behavior and plain old dissent. There was a time when Professor De Genovas remarks about "a million Mogadishus" would have been called "Providing aid and comfort to the enemy". the patriot acts are knee-jerk reactionary BS, and someone needs to reign in ashcroft.

I feel safer in knowing at least one financial conduit for radical islamic terrorism is about to be dried up. Minus the $25, 000 reward for blowing ones self up, i hope the people of Israel find themselves at least a little safer when they head out for coffee, pizza, school and work. Minus the Ba'athist governments' gracious providing of land, training and funds to Al Qaeda, i hope the rest of us feel a tad bit safer, too.

What concerns me? the iraqi governments' complete disregard for the geneva conventions, baldfaced denial of its impending doom, the finding of torture chambers, happily using civilians and places of worship as shields (where's the republican guard holed up now in Najaf? A mosque dedicated to a Shi'ite cleric? hmm) , warehouses of stockpiled food in places where people are starving, willful & wholesale environmental destruction to keep itself in power, and that there are people who would allow such atrocities to continue in the name of the status quo.

our gods and goddesses are not all peace and love. Kali is my patron goddess. Rebirth through destruction is her hallmark (among other things, like being the deification of Karma) . I hope to see iraq become a thriving, productive nation again, and, unfortunately, it seems only through the destruction of its current government does it have even an inkling of a chance at that. I have friends and family overseas fighting for someone elses right to dissent, now. That's the difference between the US and the sniveling appeasers. Gods bless all of them and bring every soldier, airman, marine, and sailor home safe.


... Apr 4th. at 5:17:30 am UTC

Nokomis (OK) Age: 25 - Email


Wolf Kyzel (Illinois, U.S.A.) Age: 38 - Email

"Peace is never wrong and war is never right. It would be completely hypocritical for someone who calls him/herself
Pagan to ever support a war."

So you are the Pagan Pope now? I don't remember any vote on the rule that states Pagans must all be pacifists who are full of sweetness and light.

Its not historically acurate to even try to claim that Pagans are all gentle peace lovers. Not only that its highly presumptuous.

I am Pagan.

I'm not a war monger, but I'm not the sort to believe in peace at all cost to the detriment of others either.

People need to just get used to the idea that not all of US are White Lighters! For people that want to be that way, that's terrific, knock yourself out. But those of us who aren't shouldn't be branded as less Pagan.

Fundies are Fundies no matter the Religion.


So Squib Apr 4th. at 7:15:20 am UTC

Skeggi (NZ) Age: 32 - Email


You think that its unfair that the republican guard are holed up in civilian centres? I suppose they should ride out to met the US invaders head on in a fair fight?

You said that you hope the people of Israil feel safer, I do too but then I wish they would safe guard the rights of the people of Palestine whose land they stole.

The links to Al Qaeda and Iraq are thin and smell of bs even by normal US standards.

While I have never argued that Saddam needed to go, freeing thousands of people by killing them directly (as in your bombs) or indirectly (as in anti aircraft fire gone wrong, which is still your fault for invading) is not the way id choose.

The terror problems will not dry up after this war and if I were in the uS id feel no safer at all. Your government have pissed of a lot of people around the world.

Shame your government had the right idea but had to do it in an ileagal manner.

Also isnt it funny no WOMD have turned up yet. Either they never had any, or they have gone missing. Feel safe now?

Skeggi


To Late Apr 4th. at 7:32:33 am UTC

Twilight (Gowen) Age: 16 - Email


Before the dession was made I would of faught the war untill the bitter end. But the desicion to go to war has been made and is final. Bush wont listen to anyone so instead of arguing over it and fighting the war e should support the trrops so they can come ome saftly.
Bush wont listen to France and other nations so what is going to make in listen to people holding signs.
Blessed Be


To Late Apr 4th. at 7:35:15 am UTC

Twilight (Gowen) Age: 16 - Email


Before the dession was made I would of faught the war untill the bitter end. But the desicion to go to war has been made and is final. Bush wont listen to anyone so instead of arguing over it and fighting the war e should support the trrops so they can come ome saftly.
Bush wont listen to France and other nations so what is going to make in listen to people holding signs.
Blessed Be


WTG Nokomis, *sigh* At Skeggi Apr 4th. at 12:41:19 pm UTC

Demetrius (Portland, OR) Age: 21 - Email


First off right on target Nokomis, not all pagans are all peace and love and happiness all the time, destruction *is* sometimes necessary to achieve a greater good and to help evolution proceed. Look at nature and you see this EVERYWHERE, the yin and the yang, black and white, order and chaos it all has it's purpose in this world. Yes, war *will* become outdated someday but only if cancerous elements such as Saddam are removed and expunged from the earth.

Secondly, Skeggi, do you live in a different world than I? It just seems there must be some rose-colored glasses being passed about. You seem to think it's justified that the Iraqi forces hole up in civilian targets or major historical and religious sites? Let's just think how silly that is and how much that really shows how little Saddam cares for anyone but himself. No the terrorism in this world will not immediately cease because of Saddam being gone, but I'll tell you one thing you don't have those $25k checks going to all the suicide bomber's familys anymore and that's a very good thing in my eyes (not sure if the view from the rose-colored glasses is the same, let me know?)

Oh and on WMD, you seriously expect us to find those immediately when we're still securing a country the size of California? I have no doubt that some will be found, the amount that we'll find I don't know. However, just with the track record Saddam has, I have no doubt he has them and may still intend to use them. That is a great fear of mine and I am working to stop that in any way I can seeing as that would more greatly affect the civilians in and around Baghdad than it would our troops.

BB

-Demetrius


No No No No Apr 4th. at 1:18:18 pm UTC

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email


Wolf Kyzel (Illinois, U.S.A.) Age: 38 - Email

"Peace is never wrong and war is never right. It would be completely hypocritical for someone who calls him/herself
Pagan to ever support a war."

Wolf, you sound no different to me than a pastor telling me I am going to hell for my beliefs. you are not the "pagan pope" as some said and you do not dictate who is pagan and who is not. I don't tell you that you are any less of a pagan for your beliefs so do not attempt to tell me what I am.

Skeggi, You know if they engaged us head on it would never be a fair fight as their military is already massively at a disadvantage. Links to Al Qaeda may be thin but the money he sends to those of many other groups for many other reasons is still just as much of a threat. and if this was not the choice you would have done. I am glad you weren't the one who had anything to do with the planning of it. You are again spouting tons of hypothetical and are not basing or posting any source to back up the claims you do make. when you do, I will take your opinion seriously.

This isn't charmed and the lines of good and evil are not as easy to see as you would like them to be. I am with Nokomis, we are not warmongers, and we all don't live our lives on the set of the WB. We are not all white lighters and we don't all have potions that produce special effects. Peace will be attained when the world is finally full of people who actually want peace. we are not there yet. And had we not had so many people demanding a resolution from the UN during the gulf war to oust Saddam (just like this time) then then we would not be having this conversation now. But I can tell you last time, had we done it then, there would have been more casualties than this time. Please get some fact to back up what you say. it helps us all to be able to validate and understand your point and what caused you to form that opinion!


OH And Forgot One Thing Skeggi....... Apr 4th. at 1:26:23 pm UTC

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email


I am still waiting to find out the source for that estimate of 5, 000 iraqis dead. and I have been actively looking with the hope that I would find it so I could give ya credit. but sadly, I have yet to see it and you have yet to produce it for us.


Occupying Force?!? Apr 4th. at 2:22:04 pm UTC

Demetrius (Portland, OR) Age: 21 - Email


Just as an extra figured I'd throw out a link from the BBC about this soccer game that the British soldiers played with the civilians of Iraq. Doesn't look like to me that the Iraqi people think we're occupying/invading/taking over either. If anything from the reports I've seen most of the civilians are welcoming the troops yes there was the incident in one of the Shiite's most holy cities where they didn't want our soldiers in the Mosque there at all. That is perfectly understandable coming from their point of view. Anyway the link's below for the soccer game, how about getting more of this information out that alot of people in Iraq are welcoming what we're doing there, and that to me is the biggest indicator that we should be there.

BB

-Demetrius Link to More info related to this post -- HERE


Yes, I Have Changed My Mind As Matter Of Fact. Apr 4th. at 4:50:22 pm UTC

Kathy Hoover (Lexington South Carolina) Age: 44 - Email


When all this war "stuff" began I have to admit I was against it. Having live (bearly) thru the Vietnam era I would still have chills at remembering my father coming home from that war with the look in his face that would scare any 7 year old. And me turning a deaf ear certainly did not stop Bush from proceding with this crazy idea of going after Sadam. The media in this contry is something I refuse to belive in, so instead I asked around. I work with another nurse who comes from Iraq. He got his citizenship in 1998 with his wife. Several things this person said stuck with me. One was as I suspected was that the media was jewish based. Ha -- figure that! But in listening him talk about Iraq I could not help but feel sorry for him and his past life in his home land. It was almost as if he is scared to admit outloud that Sadam is a crazy man. He would almost whisper this statement. The little things such as women in this country being hit, raped, even murdered sounded like a joke compaired to the life in Iraq. This nurse I work with summed up the suicide bombers as this "if a group of men busted into your home in the middle of the night took your children out the the front yard raped and killed them would you not be a little suicidal?". At the age of 17 this nurse was walking down the street. A group of men stopped him and accused him of throwing a rock, which to this day he denies. They stripped him down and raped and beat him. IN the street -- in front of a crowd. I wondered how he got thru all this -- odly enough he was a psyhc nurse first.
After listening to this nurses story I began to "look" at the pictures coming from Iraq. Notice I said look -- I would turn down the the volume. The look on the Kurds faces in fear, the look at the smug face of Laden. But the most horrifying look I have seen this week is the look on the 19 year olds face that got rescuded. I just had to turn up the volume on this -- broken arms broken legs broken back and a car battery? And I could just about swear I saw a trach in place.
Now I am curious just how long are we as a strong country, the "big brother" suppose to stand by and watch all this inhumaine treatment go on. Keep the deaf ear turned the other way? We have been sitting around and oh "asking" Sadam to stop. We got no where -- United Nations got no where. How long? It has been a long time since we have seen some one with smallpox -- it's not pretty. But the pus that pores from this virus looks like the pus that has pored from this leader that has done all this damage. As a critical care nurse I fight death every day -- all a pt has to say to me is "I don't want to die" and you have my commitment -- heart and soul. In all honesty -- I would have to hand over this SOB on a silver platter. Yes dieing would be to easy on Sadam, especaily for those of us who belive there is no hell. But what do you do with someone who has taken their maddness out on the world and made it look like candy?
Yes now I am for going after this bast---. Not has one country against another, as one humane being for another. Weather we like it or not we are our "brothers keeper" and "sisters keeper" as well. This country does not have the option of a solid one race. We are different colors and race and opinions, and everything else. As for me and my house -- my doors are open for those who have never known freedom, never known justice, and never had the chance becuase of some mad man at the helm.
And quick somebody go lock Jane Fonda in the closet before she hears about this war.


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