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Posted: Sep. 8, 2002
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Question of the Week: 34 - 3/26/2001
What Are Your Views on Abortion, Euthanasia and Suicide?
What are your personal views on the issue of abortion, euthanasia and suicide? Do you consider these as individual and personal decisions or are they moral, religious or ethical 'crimes'? Does society-or the majority view (religious or otherwise) have the right to 'regulate' such actions or does the individual have the personal 'right' to decide whether to have an abortion or take their own life through euthanasia r suicide? CAUTION: These topics are very emotionally charged ones. Please do not attack or respond directly to another's posting, but rather simply state your own opinion on the matter. Anyone who wishes to debate the topics further via email with others can state so in his/her posting. Postings directly attacking another individual will be removed.
| Reponses: There are 95 responses posted to this question.
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| Where In The History Are We Known To Take A Life, Is... ||Mar 27th. at 8:35:39 pm EST|
|Christopher K. Magnusson (Lowell, Massachusetts US) ||Age: 38 - Email |
Where in the History are we known to take a life, is that what we as Pagans are about? Am I wrong or wasn't a witch also a mid wife, also just how did the True Pagans let the mainstream drop their issue into our laps. Just because the Coven isn't perfect, do you brake the Rainbow...
Kaya, Lowell, Ma.
| Synchronicity Strikes Again. Driving Home, I Heard A Man Will Be Killed... ||Mar 27th. at 8:40:15 pm EST|
|Lynne-Renee (rural St. Louis area, Missouri US) ||Age: 29 - Email |
Synchronicity strikes again. Driving home, I heard a man will be killed in MO at 12 am.
I thought to myself, "It's another conscious killing." I've thought a lot about death. As the youngest of both sides of my family, I've literally seen scores of family members die-mostly from cancer. I was raised to be pro-Choice, pro-Hemlock Tea Society and for capital punishment.
Whilst living in France (where euthanasia is widely accepted and capital punishment is considered horrific), I began to change my mind about one of these. I've decided that *I* cannot make the decision to end a life which doesn't directly affect my person. Thus euthanasia, abortion and suicide are acceptable choices.
Remembering karma, I must make decisions that I truly believe are the best for me now and which I can accept the consequences of in the future. If you say "aye" you must stand beside it. I have no desire to ever get an abortion. I've never been in that scenario.
I have however tried to commit suicide (several years ago) and at a different point, prayed for death to come to me in hospital. Many say choosing death is selfish. I say ask those who have tried. Not the ones who take pills and make a phone call. I tried to end my life by myself. I survived and cannot express how *thankful* I am to continue to grow and learn and heal. That was 15 years ago. If anyone kills herself, I don't get angry as my co-workers do. If they knew the excruciating pain one must be in to do it...As for euthanasia, when morphine isn't dulling the pain and you've been vomiting blood for 2 days, come talk to me.
I feel great sympathy for the bereaved of those who simply had to rest, who had to move on, who had to escape. I know you feel angry and lonesome. But know that your lost loved ones do love you and after much thought and soul searching, they did the very best that they could at the time.
| I Think Abortion Is A Private And Painful Issue That The Riechteous... ||Mar 27th. at 8:44:22 pm EST|
|Helena Worthwyche (Anchorage, Alaska US) ||Age: 44 |
I think abortion is a private and painful issue that the riechteous religion mongers use as emotional shrapnel to attack women. Of all the women I have known who have had to make this choice to abort or not to abort; not a one took the decision lightly, and many have continued to suffer from guilt and horror trips placed on them by do-gooder religious goofs, usually male preachers. I would chose to control birth rather than abort however there are still women denied basic birth control by law, or family, or church imposed ignorance. These women need to be able to say that bringing life through themselves is not an option for them.
When I tried to be Christian I grieved and became grossly depressed. Never wanted to die more than after trying Salvation on for size. Poor Jesus, his Dad couldn't come up with a better plan than offing his own kid and in the process had to victimize a virgin girl-child with a potential social stoning if "caught" preganant? This God loved me? Ha, I bet...my soul I just wasn't sheep material. Social outcast, how come I didn't want to be fixed and really wished they would leave the poor Jewish Carpenter alone and take responsibilty for their own actions. I still don't get it and once I laid that burden down at the feet of the Diety of my KNOWING I found a way to dump the suicide demons and pick up the task of life. I just wanted out of pain. I wanted to be away from an intolerable version of life foisted upon me with threats of damnation and hellfire for not "getting it".
I detest people who use suicide as a weapon to control and limit others response.They are profoundly selfish and are in no way like people who need to get out of their bodies due to sickness or torture or having been forced to relinquish any self control through illness or evils like "rule of law" or forced religion. I don't blame a Women forced to revert to a non-enity from the likes of the Taliban or something equally as in-humane for checking out.
I looked into my dog's eyes as the needle bit her with death in the Doctors office. She hurt and I had to say goodbye. Dogs are worthy of death with dignity by law, but not humans. The government and religiosity must control every "body", it is a national form of mental illness in my opinion much sicker than any thing else I have ever experienced. What gluttonous power junkies. OCD get over, we got Bob Barr and Congress dosing on themselves.
This is just my humble opinion and I am glad to have this forum to voice it in. Blessed Be to me. I love to hear the voices of reason raising to a chorus hear.
| All Three Are Personal Choices... I Am A 32 Year Old Mother... ||Mar 27th. at 8:48:54 pm EST|
|Kim Russell (Portland, Oregon US) ||Age: 32 |
All three are personal choices...
I am a 32 year old mother of two. While I could not have an abortion I do not condemn those that do. Walk a mile in my shoes and see where I've been before you judge me. No one has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. Try telling a man what he can or cannot do with his body and you would be dead before you hit the floor. I find it ironic that viagra is covered by most insurance companies, but birth control pills are not. What about equality?
On Euthenasia, it isn't a matter of killing oneself it is a matter of pain control. When you can no longer control the pain you'd better pray for a speedy death. If a doctor can ease your pain and end your suffering then he/she should be allowed to end your life without fear of repurcussions. If you no longer have the mental capacity and are brain dead, pull the plug. As long as the mind is active and the body is healthy there is no need. But when the body and mind are gone why prolong the suffering. If your cat or dog was seriously ill with no hope of recovery the vet puts them to sleep. It is still an emotionally wrought time, yet no one dares tell you you were wrong for doing that. Aren't human beings worth as much as animals?
Suicide, mixed feelings on this one. I had two friends in high school commit suicide. (3 months apart. one by shot gun and the other by asphyxiation. I was suicidal, the love of my mother and knowing what it would put her through got me through that time. I keep thinking if I had done that my two boys would never had been born. I would have never had an impact on the people in my life at this time. I am not for suicide but I know the despair and anger and the absolute loss of the will to live that people whe do commit suicide feel. All you can do is reach out and offer support to them, repeatedly.
| I Think Abortion Is Disgusting And Immoral. But Contrary To That, If... ||Mar 27th. at 9:07:11 pm EST|
|Emily (Ottawa, Ontario CA) ||Age: 16 - Email |
I think abortion is disgusting and immoral. But contrary to that, if my friend wanted an abortion under the right circumstances I would probably support her. Even though I know it's wrong in my heart, I can't condenm others because I have never been pregnant.
Suicide: I suffer from clinical depression and get really suicidal. I hate it when people say that I'm selfish. Please don't say that. It hurts me a lot. Would you call a person with a heart disease lazy?
Euthanasia: I don't have a moral opinion but I don't think we need to help a dying person die.
| These Are Very Difficult Issues, And Reading Through Others' Response Has Made... ||Mar 27th. at 9:22:21 pm EST|
|Jessyak Boyle-- Jaiyla (North Port, Florida US) ||Age: 19 - Email |
These are very difficult issues, and reading through others' response has made me think about other sides to the story. My own opinion is that that all of these things are up to the individual.
On euthanasia, I have always believed that this should be an option open to the terminally ill. My own grandfather died of a prolonged bout of cancer and his last few months were spent unconscious on morphine, having nightmares about WWII, from which he woke up crying and mumbling feverishly at times. I wonder today if he had had the option of euthanasia, would he have taken it? I have also heard stories of patients who are terminally ill (and I have just heard them as stories, I have no proof to back them up, but I am repeating this because it seems to make psychological sense) in other countries where euthanasia is an optionliving considerably longer than the "alotted" time, due to the fact that they simply have the option. It occurs to me that knowing you have the ability to end it if it becomes too much would take off a lot of stress, stress which would contribute to your deterioration. The issue of euthanasia also presented itself to me in the case of those who are permanently disfigured or handicapped. I've heard of those who have been in accidents and become parapalegic and their quality of life has gone downhill to the point where they won't even eat unless forced. For these people, perhaps that option would be the one thy go for. There are others in the same situation however who have wonderful quality of life thereafter. It is indeed a very individual thing.
On the issue of suicide, I feel it is one of personal choice. I personally admire one person in history for commiting suicide: Boudicca of the Iceni. Rather thn be dragged into Rome in chains as a trophy and married off to some bureaucrat, she chose to end her life with dignity. The issue of suicide today however, usually involves a person who is depressed, has mental problems, or is dealing with situations he or she feels are out of control. This is not always the case, but this is what we think of as most common. In these cases, they could be prevented if we got involved and helped one another. The suicide statistics are a sad one. But in the end, I do think it is up to the individual whether or not to take their own life...
On the issue of abortion, I am very much pro-choice, considering the fact that if I were to become pregnant today, this would be the option I would choose. I am in no state, financially, emotionally, or responsibility-wise, to raise a child. If I were to raise a child at this point in my life, I feel it would stop me from developing as an individual, and strain my growth in my new found independence. Further, if I were to put said child up for adoption, how could be certain that the home they were placed in would provide adaquately for her or him? How do I know that their situation might not turn ugly? How could I do this in good conscience when I know the statistics about foster homes, children who are over the age of 10 getting adopted, or of those children who are handicapped being cared for, or those born to drug addict parents? I personally believe in reincarnation, so I know the aborted child will move on to the next life. It could be argued that keeping abortion legal is like handing some young women permission to go and be promiscuous, that abortion is used by many as a form of birth control. I do not deny that some women think of it thus, but the real issue is not the abortion here: if they gave up the child for adoption, do you think it would prevent them from going out and having promiscuous sex again? In many cases, even if they have and keep the child, the behavior doesn't change (I have winessed this in MANY of my friends). The issue is how they view themselves. Sometimes, not all times, when these women keep their children, they cannot care for them in a responible manner. Can they really nuture another person when they cannot nuture themselves? The problem isn't the fact that they view abortion as birth control, or that they go out and have these promiscuous relations and feel no responsibility-- this I feel is indicative of a problem on a deeper level, problems regarding how they view themselves and their level of self-esteem. I do believe that if it were treated as just such hurt, that we could help them to view themselves in a better light, and their need to engage in such behavior would be lessened. A woman who is raped I feel should always have the option of abortion. A woman's body is her own, she has the FINAL say as to what will happen.
If anyone would like to discuss this with me, feel free to email me.
| I Read Over Some Of The Responses While I Was Thinking Up... ||Mar 27th. at 11:20:50 pm EST|
|Vincent Bosch (sumter, South Carolina US) ||Age: 20 - Email |
I read over some of the responses while I was thinking up what to write (your right by the way. this is a verry emotional topic).
On Abortion, I beleave in my heart of hearts that it depends on the situation. My opinion (and by no means is this everyones) Is that in casess such as rape, poverty, danger to the mother during birth, or other health reasons im unaware of, abortion would be the right choice. My personal vew is that if you cant rase a kid, dont start trying to lay the foundation. Though, at the same time, I beleave it is the individualls choice, and that it shouldnt be left up to the government to decide when a case is appropriate or not.
euthanasia, I feal it is acceptible for both pepole and animals. I feal that animals (such as my cat and friend sitting on my lap right now) who are suffering so greatly and cant be helped, should be humainly and with dignity be put to sleep to end there suffering. It boggles my mind that we dont do this with humans as well. I know if I had cancer and knew I had maby 4 weeks left to live at best, and was in incredible pain, I would be begging to be put to sleep. Its a more peacefull way. We do this to our familiars when there terminaly ill. It isnt an easy choice. But we do it because we know there suffering. So, why force humans to suffer when there is no hope in this life to save them from the pain? And especialy if they WANT to be euthanised.
On suicide....that one is encredebly touchy to me for many reasons. Id have to say Its wrong.At least, when your a person who is in good health and not even close to likely to die soon, and your only doing it because you want to get away from your problems. My mother commited suicide when I was 6 years old. Im now 20. And not one day gose by where I dont wonder why she did it, or miss the sound of her voice. Or want to just be held in her arms one last time to say goodbye. She could verry well have ben alive to see me develop tallants and graduate highschool and move on with my life today if she hadnt. But she made a decission to leave me behind. I had a friend of mine a few years ago kill herself. For a long time I blamed myself because I wasnt there to stop her. I could have ben there, but I stayed home because I was tired that day. I never saw her again. She was always a verry happy girl and no one ever saw it comeing. I personaly thought it over for a few years till one day I came verry close to it. And when I think about how close I came it scares me every day. I realised at the last minute that if I did this, It would end all my problems. But it would hurt others in ways I would never expect. Far more than my problems where hurting me. I asked for help. Some of my problems I was concidering doing that over have gone away. some of them are the same and some have gotten worse. I do suffer from depression. But I get up every morning and at least try to realise I have a purpose (even if I dont know what it is yet:) Suicide hurts so many in so many ways I feal it cant be comprehended. There is always a reason not to commit suiccide. Its called hope. I hope this helps someone out there.
| Hi!; This Kind Of Question Can Be Controversial, But Needs Be Faced... ||Mar 27th. at 11:36:20 pm EST|
|Tarostar (Toronto, Ontario CA) ||Age: 59 - Email |
This kind of question can be controversial, but needs be faced.
As a male, I never felt I had a right to require any female to bear young
against her will.
Birthing is a female mystery I can not hope to experience.
No matter what any patriarchial authority, religious or governmental, says,
Witches have always known the formulas of remedies to abort. That knowledge
is part of "Craft" and has been used since before God.
Witches will avail themselves of those things as needed and desired.
Depriving women of the old Witch lore results in the coat hanger back alley
horror stories anti-abortionists love to portray.
Herbs can do it naturally with hardly any danger to the self. The problem being,
certain herbs can be made unavailable by the Powers That Want To Be.
That's why many of us grow them ourselves.
Suicide should be a dignified choice for the individual.
I always thought it silly for society to punish a person for attempted suicide. One
is punished by being put in the psycho ward for failing. Successful suicides can not be punished.
Judaeo-Xtian society can not cope with being rejected when a person wants to check out. I feel there should be hospices for those who want to end their lives
and have it done in a clinical setting a la Solyent Green.
Terminal illness should give a person's physician an authority with the will of the
sick person and his/her legal spokesperson to end suffering which is incurable.
All I can say is there is precedent where Witches can assist in these matters when the doctor can not.
It is not something openly discussed.
The coming and going of life is the core of women's mysteries. There is something deeply intuitive about them. BB Tarostar
| Wow! Incredibly Charged Question, But One I Have Thought About Often. All... ||Mar 28th. at 12:51:02 am EST|
|Vivianne (Union City, New Jersey US) ||Age: 30 |
Wow! Incredibly charged question, but one I have thought about often. All my life I have been pro-choice, only recently after becoming a mother I realized that I am also and have always been pro-life. I support a woman's right to choose while realizing that that is never a choice I would make. In terms of Euthanasia, I think a spirit knows when it is time to leave this plane. Unfortunately, medicine sometimes interferes with the spirit's choice. Having been the child of a man who desperately wanted to leave when he chose to leave, I understand that the spirit knows. The state does not always get it, however. And suicide. Here is where my views become skewed. I disagree. I find suicide incredibly disturbing. Primarily because those in such dire need seem to almost always ask for help in some form. It upsets me so, to know that that person was let down by society. I do not, however, believe that that person is punished in the afterlife or in future incarnations. They will have to live through their decision at some point and work through the pain. I find it morally wrong and an affront to nature, but so is not helping a spirit in need.
| Hi! Wow!what A Difficult Question. On Abortion.i Support A Woman's Right... ||Mar 28th. at 1:24:13 am EST|
|Rain BrightStar (Moore, Oklahoma US) ||Age: 40 - Email |
Wow!What a difficult question.
On abortion.I support a woman's right to choose.It's between her and her physician.Period.
Suicide.I, personally, don't think it's the answer.But if one were dying a slow horrible death, it might be the thing to do.
Euthanasia?The same thing, if it's a slow horrible death, a person should have the option.This is a really tricky area for me.If we know that is the person's wishes.But, inevitably, there'd be ungrateful relatives who just want the person to die before all the inheritance is spent on medical.They might forge documents and finish off a person early.So I'm really unsure about it.
The dominant society should not be involved in these ethical dilemmas.Forcing its' will on peoples choices.
Peace and Love
| Ever Since Tempest's Tragic Suicide, I've Been Visiting Witchvox More Often And... ||Mar 28th. at 4:08:12 am EST|
|greenrose (Montreal, Quebec CA) ||Age: 52 - Email |
Ever since Tempest's tragic suicide, I've been visiting Witchvox more often and reading the incredible amount of writing that people are sending in. My son committed suicide in 1988 at age 19 (2 days before his 20th). So this question brings up a lot of feelings for me. So much that I couldn't even find the energy to write to Tempest's mother to offer support, as much as I wanted to. (I'll keep trying.) I'll try to write some of what I feel here. I always hope it may help someone else, but I think it's really mostly to get my own feelings & thoughts out.
It's curious that I've never felt angry at my son for taking his own life. At least not as angry as I was at the fact that there is little support for people who are marginalized in any way in our modern, busy world. Especially young people. I've done a lot of reading, counseling and research on suicide in the past 12 years. The first thing I found out was that young people talk a lot about suicide, among themselves (mind you, I live in a province that has the highest suicide rate in North America).
Finding out the historical background of this taboo subject, and where & why it is still a crime to do it blew me away. At the time of my son's death I was on social aid (another taboo subject), and went to my local office to see if I could get some financial help for the funeral. Can you believe they told me I would have to apply to get my dead son on social assistance before they could even answer my questions? I was so broken at that time anyway that I spoke my mind quite openly and let them know how crazy they sounded! I can't remember the years, but until quite recently it was a crime to commit suicide in many places. Probably still is in some. The ultimate in adding insult to injury. Suicides are not weak, they see no other way out of pain.
One of the counselors who I've talked with (she worked with youth at risk for suicide) told me that she thought that many young people feel they are indestructable when they attempt suicide. They feel the long stretch of years before them. It is obviously a cry for help and an expression of extreme distress. Why commit suicide before asking for help? That's why I think youth often don't think they'll really die.
I also found out that my son was prescibed a drug for severe acne. (He lived with his father, so I didn't know about this till later.) One acne drug called Accutane, it is being discovered, can in some cases cause severe depression. I'm not blaming the drug, but it may have contributed. Lately I've heard of other youth suicides connected with this drug. Come to think of it, there are thousands of chemical in our world today. We don't know the effects of most of them, especially in combination. I have no moral judgement for people who attempt or succeed in suicide. I do feel it may be difficult "waking up" on the other side after death and somehow having to face the distress anyway.
I came into my Wiccan identity after this happened, although looking back I can see that it was always there. I'm not part of a close-knit group, but have a few key people in my life. But after a few years, noone wants to talk about this any more. And sometimes I still need to. I am very against criminalizing suicide and assisted suicide. (I can't write on abortion right now, I don't want to get too wordy.) My son's suicide has caused a lifetime of pain & loss for his father, his sister, his friends, our families and myself. He was a very gentle soul, a very creative and loving person.
He was heard to say that he didn't feel "worthy" shortly before he committed suicide. My hope is that the current global movement for social justice, peace and a healthy ecology will set the stage for a planet where we all feel in our deepest being that we are worthy of being loved. i remember an open Samhain ritual I attended a few years ago. I was about to write my son's name on a big white candle being passed around, and looked down and saw Seth already printed there. Thank you for listening.
| Euthanasia, Suicide, Abortion. Three Very Tough Subjects. In All Three Respects There... ||Mar 28th. at 5:14:31 am EST|
|Ron (Ankharan/Shadow) Ellenbecker (St. Augustine, Florida US) ||Age: 36 - Email |
Euthanasia, Suicide, Abortion.
Three very tough subjects.
In all three respects there is always the "depends on the situation." Each situation has it's own set of problems that can never be fully understood by anyone but the individule involved. It can be sympathized with, it can be comprehended, it can even be related to and identified with but, never fully understood by anyone except the individule.
No one person has the right to tell me so long as i am in control of my mental capacities that if I am in too much pain that will never go away, will not kill me, and cannot ever be cured that I do not have the right to end my suffering.
No one has the right to tell me that if I were a woman and my life were threatened, was raped or the baby is already passed on that I do not have the right to an abortion.
No one has the right to tell me that I know what I want now and in 40 years if I get into a vehicle accident and come to the point of never awakening from a vegitative state that I cannot make a will that states my wishes to put an end to it.
This of course only applies to me, I do not have the right to force my beliefs on anyone else.
Theer are counter arguments, usually filled with what ifs. What if humans could fly......
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