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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

111. So, You’re Dead. Now What? - [59]

110. What’s Your Favorite Element? - [119]

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108. Do You Speak Pagan Geek? - [38]

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106. What Is Your Inner Animal? - [127]

105. Are Pagans TOO Individualistic? - [56]

104. Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq? - [258]

103. What Are You Reading? - [95]

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101. Have You Made Any Extra Security Preparations? - [85]

100. Why Are You A Pagan or Heathen? - [142]

99. What Moon Phase Are You In? - [70]

98. Would You Live In A Haunted House? - [166]

97. What Natural Objects Are On Your Altar? - [103]

96. If You Were Granted Three Wishes... - [179]

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89. Bah-Humbug! Are You Offended by Christmas? - [173]

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36. Should the United States Apologize to China - [32]

35. Pagan Web Surfing Likes/Dislike - [60]

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31. Whassa Matter With Kids Today? - [71]

30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

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21. What is/was your New Year's resolution? - [19]

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9. Pagan Jokes and Humorous Stories - [37]

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7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

6. What are YOU planning for Mabon-Autumn Equinox? - [14]

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3. Church and State, Religion in School... What is YOUR View? - [122]

2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 24,944,124  

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Question of the Week: 83 - 10/27/2002

Time to Talk Politics and Elections…

Eek! It’s the silly season again.

For U.S. Pagans/Heathens: The U.S. is holding mid-term elections Nov. 5th. Will you be voting? What are the issues that are most important to you? Do you vote by issue or by party? Do you have any thoughts on how it will turn out?

Non-U.S. Pagans/Heathens: The U.S. is woefully ignorant about your political processes. Please enlighten us. How many parties do you have? What are the names of the parties and what platforms do they represent? Do you have 'liberals' and 'conservatives'? How often do you vote? Do you elect representatives? How do you contact these representatives about your issues?

As always while talking politics, discussions can become heated. Please stay on the issues and do not resort to personal attacks. Further discussions should be taken to e-mail.

 Reponses:   There are 109 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

Yes - I Will Be Voting! Oct 31st. at 6:01:55 pm EST

Vocalize (New Jersey, USA) Age: 42 - Email

I usually don't tell the people I know but I didn't vote for many years. I never trusted the government or saw any value in voting for one of two people I don't believe in or agree with. But as I got older, I realized that the majority of Americans I spoke with didn't agree with most of the government's policies either. I'm sure many of the people who don't vote are just as fed-up with the system as I am. I will no longer let the mass media tell me that we have a two party system and that I have to choose from one or the other or my vote is wasted.

Now I look at the issues. Almost every candidate has a website. It's easy to see their position on the issues. I find myself almost always voting for 3rd party candidates. They are the only ones speaking out on the issues that matter like universal healthcare, stopping the war on drugs, protecting the environment, and holding on to our civil rights.

I'm sure that voting here in the U.S.A. is fixed to some degree. The polls are controlled by the two parties so 3rd party votes can be lost. But given this, just the idea of alternative candidates getting a significant number of votes can help to make their voices heard on some of the issues. It's not hard to vote - at least I'm doing something to change the system.

As many on this site have said, I believe that George W. Bush is a Hitler for the 21st century. He is a dangerous man, but even a little over a year after September 11, 2001 most Americans no longer believe in him - despite the media's efforts to convince us otherwise. I believe he, and is minions, will stop at nothing to gain control over the world. But, understand that these people are not a majority and the only power they have is that which we allow them to steal from us.

On the lighter side, I'll leave you with a funny sig. file I saw on someone's email during the 2000 elections:

I'M VOTING FOR SATAN! Why should I settle for the lesser of two evils? Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

“The Conspiracy Games”. Nov 1st. at 12:04:31 pm EST

The Sweeper (OK) Age: 48 - Email

And now we introduce for your edification one of America most popular participation sports “The Conspiracy Games”. On stage tonight we have George W Bush and his all Powerful Cabal, an organization so secret that only a few people are aware of there evil present; other, of course, then every cheap rag printed, a few dozen novelists and every comedian in the country. George W is supported by everything evil and of course the new media. By the way; the same news media that called the 2000 election (accidentally of course) in favor of Al Gore just in time to disenfranchise Florida’s republican Panhandle and to dampen the Republican vote all across the county west of the eastern time zone. I suspect the news media would be a bit surprised to find that it is a Bush supporter.

Irusan, the game has always been tough, we are just now more aware of it because we are privy to more information then ever before. This same information brought down Richard Nixon and The Soviet Union, cast President Clinton in a bad light, and created havoc with President Reagan’s two terms. Now with the Internet we have available to us, even more information, however, like all sources of information, some of it is suspect.

Have we so soon forgotten the Cold War, The Cuban Missile Crisis, the Japanese Empire, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin? For heaven sake, don’t you remember what it was like living with the threat of all out nuclear war? Sure it’s tough but it has always been tough, we live in a world filled with greed and averse, hate and violence, starvation and need.

This country has, for the most part, sat snuggly in it’s safe continent and only helped when it had to, that has changed, we are no longer invulnerable. We must do what we must to protect ourselves and protect others that are being brutalized. We can not sit and watch as; women are raped, battered, and bartered. We can no longer watch at the sideline ringing our hand as mass murder is being committed, and we can no longer wait for an ineffectual and flawed UN to do its job. I no longer care what the world thinks. There are people out there in despair for help, we have sat on our hand for to long making excuses we must and are doing something.

As an individual if my children are threatened I do what has to be done to protect them, even if it mean taking a broom to someone. As a member of this country I want my President doing what ever it takes to protect my children and myself and protect innocent women and children around the world.

If that, Irusan, is part of a conspiracy, then so be it.

The Sweeper

Don't Feed Into The Myths That Have Gotten Us To This Point. Nov 1st. at 1:27:20 pm EST

Myrddin (Wisconsin) Age: 55 - Email

I would like to point out some examples from history firstly:

Re: The "Bush did it myth". Ask yourself where that allegation comes from. Compare it to Hitler's and the Nazi Party's allegation that the Reichstag fire was set by jews and communists.
That incident gave him all the power he needed to subjugate a nation with new laws and police powers. But who actually did it? A single dis-affected man with communist ties. The incident was used by Hitler to launch his subjugation in a cynical way. By the way , folks, his political organization was called The National SOCIALIST DEMOCRATIC WORKERS Party, in case you have not forgotten. It was not called the Republican Party. The name was chose to appeal to the most voters, however the party cared not one whit about Democracy, Socialist ideals, or the Workers.
What it cared about was POWER.

Who did the Trade Towers? Bush? He allowed it to happen? Nope. One dis-affected man named Osama Bin Laden who gathered to his side other dis-affected extremists and trained them for the task. But he was the guiding light. One dis-affected extremist. Who alleges otherwise? Well........since the Republicans or Bush are likely to make such allegations about themselves we have to look elsewhere, don't we? You don't have to look far. It is the extremist segment of the Democratic Party, and their willing minions the news media. But why would the make such allegations if not true? They care about us, the average American, right? Don't they? No, fraid not. They care about gaining AND KEEPING power so they can dictate how we live. Just as much as the extremists in the Republican Party would like to dictate how we live. It is an ugly, ugly and FALSE allegation especially made in the aftermath of one of the most terrible tragedies to happen to this country. It is cynically made. Just as Hitler made HIS cynical allegation about the Reichstag fire in order to whip up emotions and sentiment and enslave a nation.

What was the outgrowth of Hitler's allegation? New police powers and new laws which removed the right to privacy, removed the right to trial, removed the right to counsel, removed the right to due process in the form of obtaining warrants and probable cause, and the disarming of the country so that only the political party and the military had firearms, the establishment of "re-education camps" and "containment facilities" for suspected enemies of the nation (which turned out to be political dissenters, jews, gypsies, communists and socialists, homosexuals and others hated by the reigning political powers). But folks, remember one thing. These acts were VOTED into being by the Reichstag. And the Nazis only carried roughly 1/3 of the seats in Reichstag. Once they HAD been voted into being, Hitler ensured that the Reichstag had no further powers to change it back again. Essentially, the people and the "congress" had given the Nazi Party and Hitler the power to disenfranchise the "congress" and the people, and hence enslave them to their will.

The thing not often mentioned is that the people of that nation SUPPORTED the new laws. The MAJORITY of the people thought them logical, temporary, and necessary.

Now draw that into our context. The Republicans could NOT get the Patriot Act, the 1st Ammendment gag order called the Campaign Finance Reform Act, Homeland Security (aka American Gestapo), TIPS, warrantless email and other searches, vast roundups of "suspects" etc into law WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF THE DEMOCRATS. They don't have enough votes. It takes Democratic cooperation and collusion to sell this country into a total abrogation of the Bill of Rights. And, frankly, they have that cooperation. Those folks in earlier posts who see a cabal and a conspiracy are correct.
They are deluding themselves, and BUYING THE DEMOCRATIC MYTHS that it is the Republicans who are behind it all.

Who pushes consistently for the disarming of America. The Democrats. Who pushed the 1st Ammendment Gag Order (Campaign Finance Reform)? A leading democrat and a democrat masquerading as a republican. Whose votes were needed to set up the Patriot Act, the most offensive oppressive law since the Sedition Act? The Democrats. What objection do the democrats raise about the new American Gestapo called the Homeland Security Department and it's new frightening powers? Their ONLY objection is that Bush does not want it to be unionized. If Bush were to drop that reuirement, they would vote it into being in a heartbeat.

For those of you who think the Republicans are evil, or the Democrats are have bought the MYTHS of the smoke and mirrors that extremists in BOTH parties use to fog over the underlying establish Government over the people and make them subject to the GOVERNMENT in all things.

What is the solution? Voting for some Green candidate or some Libertarian candidate who has absolutely NO chance of winning? Sure........go ahead. The Dems and The Repubs want you to do that. Voting for the lesser of two evils? Sure......go ahead. The Dems and the Republicans want you to do that. Both options perpetuate the power of those bent on gradually oppressing us.

THE SOLUTION, FOLKS, IN CASE YOU HAVE NOT FIGURED IT to vote the individual candidate FOR EACH ELECTIVE OFFICE FROM STATE TO FEDERAL LEVEL who supports the ENTIRE Bill of Rights. The solution, folks, is to hold ALL CANDIDATES to the fire when they even imply that part of the protections in that important document are dated, outmoded, no longer apply, weren't meant to protect INDIVIDUAL rights, must be modified to "keep up with the times", or must be overlooks due to exingencies and emergencies etc. THAT language gives the candidate away as one who would oppress you.

TO DO ANYTHING ELSE IS TO PLAY THEIR GAME. The powerful want to subjugate us. Clinton was in thrall to them. All elected officials are in one way or another. When we establish a system that allows politicians to become career politicians we have established a system which becomes self perpetuating, singly concerned with remaining in power, and once it has obtain power........wants to expand it.

Key words. Bill of Rights. Term Limits. Balanced Budget.

However.........we are at a very scary point here.........we are offered only those who are endorsed by their PARTIES. That in effect means we are only offered candidates who are part of the agenda.......the gradual and grand agenda of obtaining enough power that we have NO say in much of anything anymore. The agenda wherein the people no longer feel there is any point in voting anymore.........because nothing will change, things will only ever get worse, or because
it makes no difference.

Who do I see as the most threatening political party? The Democrats, currently. The Republicans will never overtun Roe vs. Wade, nor will they ever be able to institute laws against religion, or granting any one religion domination over others. The democrats recently, however, HAVE come out consistently with laws which in one way or the other subvert the intent and the letter of the Bill of Rights. Take their guns away. Take away a dissenter's voice during an election. Grant sweeping powers to Government which tread on 4th and 5th Ammendment rights in return for "security". Buy, extort, fraudulently obtain, or lie to get votes any way you can to get in power and stay in power. It isn't very often you hear about Republicans having dead folks vote, about bribing the mental defectives, the homeless, the vagrants etc to vote in return for wine, cigarrettes, a meal. It isn't often you hear about Republicans threatening to hold up needed legislation if a PAC or segment of the community doesnt vote their way. And the Democrats have NOTHING to do with "democracy" other than the literal interpretation of the RULE OF THE MAJORITY OVER EVERYBODY ELSE on all issues whether or not that issue violates the rights of an individual.

They both have the same agenda. But currently, the democrats are the scariest.

Demand candidates who support ALL the Bill of Rights, who favor term limits, and who get their funding from their consituents and ONLY their constituents during campaigns.....regardless of parties. As long as we let the PARTIES dictate the candidates we will go down the slope we have been going down...........gradual loss of any impact or voice in what happens to us.

My opinion........for what it is worth.

Bravo Nov 1st. at 2:33:58 pm EST

The Sweeper (OK) Age: 48 - Email

Bravo, Myrddin, although I do hope you did not mistake my sarcasm.

The Sweeper

My Thoughts Nov 1st. at 5:08:11 pm EST

Matt (Detroit) Age: 25 - Email

Personaly I don't think Bush is smart enough to pull that kind of thing off. No offence to anyone here, but I just can't see him masterminding a plot to take over the world. I mean really, he almost choked to death eating a pretzel! True, he is a puppet for other people (700 club, etc.) but I think he is smart enough to smell trouble.

My beef with the US at the moment is simply that we have turned from a nation of leaders to a nation of followers: *begin sarcasm* whatever the TV/radio/music/art/religion says is true, must be since I am so small in this big world *end sarcasm* The world really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Anyway, that's all from me.


Largely Agree... Nov 1st. at 7:10:54 pm EST

Peragana (Northern VA) Age: 32 - Email

"Demand candidates who support ALL the Bill of Rights, who favor term limits, and who get their funding from their consituents and ONLY their constituents during campaigns.....regardless of parties. As long as we let the PARTIES dictate the candidates we will go down the slope we have been going down...........gradual loss of any impact or voice in what happens to us."

I agreed up until I got to that paragraph. First, funding only from constituents-- lovely if everyone agrees, but they won't-- and the guy without the big bucks (unless s/he's got the name recognition of say, Jesse Ventura) is going to lose because he can't afford to get his message out. Everyone wants to blame the parties and the candidates for the big-money-in-politics problem, but the fact is, the average person isn't home when phone bankers call or when precinct leaders and candidates go door-to-door (two pretty cheap grassroots politicking methods), and they don't go to the county fairs, local parades, etc. where the candidates always turn out. They DO turn on their TV sets, and that costs money. I don't like it, but that's reality.

Second, regarding parties. "As long as we let the PARTIES dictate the candidates..." Who exactly do you think the "parties" are, if not groups of INDIVIDUAL VOTERS? You want a voice in which candidates are chosen? Vote in a primary. It's the old story, if you don't vote, you can't kvetch.

And In Reply............... Nov 1st. at 7:34:35 pm EST

Myrddin (Wisconsin) Age: 55 - Email

Peragana (hope I got that right) says:

"I agreed up until I got to that paragraph. First, funding only from constituents-- lovely if everyone agrees, but they won't-- and the guy without the big bucks (unless s/he's got the name recognition of say, Jesse Ventura) is going to lose because he can't afford to get his message out. Everyone wants to blame the parties and the candidates for the big-money-in-politics problem, but the fact is, the average person isn't home when phone bankers call or when precinct leaders and candidates go door-to-door (two pretty cheap grassroots politicking methods), and they don't go to the county fairs, local parades, etc. where the candidates always turn out. They DO turn on their TV sets, and that costs money. I don't like it, but that's reality."

Well then we CHANGE the reality. They (congress) don't mind enacting campaign finance laws that gag particular interested organizations which are likely to vote against them. They don't mind limiting funding FROM individuals while allowing corps, pacs and obscenely rich donators unlimited about we get them - no DEMAND - that they enact a REAL campaign finance reform act which limits donations ONLY to donations from a candidate's constituency? How about we demand they be responsible ONLY to their constituents and NOT to PACS, orgs, businesses, special interests, single issues etc? And we do that by making it against the law to fill their coffers from those sources?

Peragana further says: "Second, regarding parties. "As long as we let the PARTIES dictate the candidates..." Who exactly do you think the "parties" are, if not groups of INDIVIDUAL VOTERS? You want a voice in which candidates are chosen? Vote in a primary. It's the old story, if you don't vote, you can't kvetch."

And I say, OH REALLY? And just WHO do you think chooses, endorses and promotes the Primary candidates if NOT the Repubs and Dems......those who actually WIN the primaries that is? How often do you see write in candidates, or dark horse candidates actually WIN a primary if NOT endorsed by one of the two parties? I do, in fact, vote in primaries. Primaries are, in my experience, just uglier and more viscious versions of the nationals. When was the last time you saw a Green or a Libertarian WIN a primary? When was the last time you saw a dark horse non-sponsored party candidate running against a party sponsored candidate actually WIN the primary?
Not very has come to be that the guy with the biggest bucks in his campaign coffer is the guy who and large. And why is that? Because the two parties get the donations from the big bucks sources......unions, PACS, businesses, etc directly INTO THE PARTY coffers. No limit on donating to the Party. Limits on donating to an individual. Hmmm. So.......what does that mean? That the Party picks who you get to pick from. The rest of the candidates get the smelly end of the stick. And when, may I ask, was the last time YOUR party ASKED YOU who should be selected as the candidate they put up in the Primary? NEVER, I would imagine. They call you up and TELL you who to vote for. They make sure they tell you WHO they endorse. And THEIR candidate can afford to spend on all the air time, all the phone calls, and all the flyers it takes to beat the other guy.....whether he be dark horse primary same-party candidate or independent.

I am glad we agree on most of what I said. You are almost just reconsider your objections in THAT light. :-)

What Compromise Are Your Willing To Make And For What? Nov 1st. at 11:35:18 pm EST

Anthony (Burlington, VT) Age: 35 - Email

Nothing ceases to befuddle me than a citizen who would vote for a member of a party that is notoriously famous for hostility to the lifestyle of that citizen.

Being a member of a non-christian and extremely minority religion, I do not understand voting for Republicans just for the simple fact that they would do everything in their power to make religious freedom for myself a hoax at best.

As a gay male, I'm even more dismayed at the "log cabin" Republicans. Why would you vote for a group who would not protect your rights as a US citizen never the less allow you the same rights as most everyone else?

Would someone rationalize these actions for me?

Is it about our newest god of humanity , Money? Is it about the abolition of rules and regulations that are so necessary to keep unbridled greed in check? Is it about the taxes we feel so put apon to pay? Paying taxes is not a bad thing, it is a required thing if we live in a community. How else are those wonderful civil services that we so wonderfullly take for granted going to be funded? I suppose some benevolent, well intentioned multi-national corporation will pay for them for us - because they "really do care about us".

I do not give Democrats all that much of a free ride either. I vote independent or green. But when forced to vote between two evils, which in this moment I have to consider, I will do just that to prevent a completely Republican "owned" goverment.

So I ask again. . . Why would a citizen support a political party(s) that has shown itself hostile to that citizen?

I don't get it. I really don't.

Horray For Peragana In Northern VA!! Nov 2nd. at 12:58:55 am EST

Becky (St. louis MO) Age: 37 - Email

AS a Pagan, Witch, and a Conservative Republican, I was convinced I was a walking contradiction, but I have an ally in Peragana! It is SO refreshing to see another Conservative Pagan make their voice known! George W. Bush is the best thing to happen to this country in 8 YEARS!! After scandal after lie after every C.Y.A incident with Bill Clinton, or, as I like to call him, Bubba, we finally have someone with some integrity, morality, scruples ,decency and honesty representing this country.At the very least it is obvious that he can be in the same room with his own wife for more than 5 minutes without needing a break! As you all know, Missouri's Senatorial race is very hot,the best thing we could do would be to elect Jim Talent and every other Conservative we can in order to keep from getting taxed within an inch of our lives! In light of the shenanigans that went on in Minnesota, I just can't understand why any normal thinking person could align themselves with a party that has no issues to run on, no reason to say,"vote for us because...", all they have to work with is cheating, fraud, and attacking the other guy. Sorry fellow Liberal Pagans,(or are you calling yourselves "Progressives" today?), can't get my brain around it. Isn't one of our main objectives to let people know that we have a set of morals and values just like everyone else?
America is the greatest country ever put on the face of Mother Earth, our way of life is worth living and dying for. We are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but massive government,political correctness shoved down everyones' throats and stifeling the American spirit of rugged individualism, and striving for freedom and success is NOT the way this country was founded nor will it be the way we survive. To the guy who was going to move to Finland, you are perfectly within your rights to go, we will even miss you, but when staggering tax rates, high unemployment, and waiting 6 months for some cold medicine because you are the proud recipient of socialized medicine get you down, because this is America, we won't taunt you over this little tantrum, we will just say,"Welcome Home."

Observations Of A Wandering Philosopher Nov 2nd. at 3:15:50 am EST

Legend (Chandler, AZ) Age: 28 - Email

Let me just start by saying that I have travelled far and wide and seen and done many different things, things that most people haven't and never will. For instance, I've seen how "the other half" live-- when nobody else is watching-- that is, the people who have enough money and influence to fund political campaigns, and they just plain don't play by the same rules as the rest of us. Meaning: the majority of people, the people they depend on to vote them into power, not only don't suspect what they're really up to, but can't even IMAGINE that they would do such things. And consequently, the unsuspecting public doesn't even realize what they ought to be holding their elected officials responsible FOR. Such as: the recent talk that Franklin Roosevelt knew in advance about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor but let it happpen anyway to get the US into the war; for Prez Bush to have known about the impending 911 attack and done nothing about it for the same reason; for the airplane of the one Senator whose narrow margin to be reelected or not would decide the control of the Senate to "just so happen" to crash killing all aboard too close to election day for any replacement to have a likely chance of putting together a winning political campaign; none of these things are beyond the scope of things I have seen people do to advance their personal interests. Or does the fact that I've become aware of things that nobody else is aware of or even has any personal basis for believing prove that everyone else is right and I'm just paranoid? Is anyone else but me aware that Pennsylvania, or which the new secretary of homeland "security" was previously governor, has the 4th highest incarceration rate in the country, is the state in which Mummia Abu Jamar is sitting on death row, and has the highest (as I recall) rate of incarceration for "conspiring to a homicide AFTER the fact"? In Pennsylvania, if you witness a murder, even if you didn't realize it was a murder, lie to the police about it because the murderer is still on the loose and has threatened to kill you if you tell the police, it makes you a MURDERER, just like it did another convenient political prisoner I knew.

(A historical technicality I stumbled over in someone else's post: it was the Nazis who burned the Reichstag, intending to blame it on the Socialists and consequently declare a state of emergency etc., etc.. It was pure "luck" (supposedly) that a retarded Socialist was caught setting fires of his own nearby.)

Anyway, always doing my part to fight fire with napalm, I don't think this "one person one vote" idea is nearly as great as it's talked up to be, but unfortunately we're stuck with it now, cuz if anyone tried to change it everyone would rise up and shoot them with their 2nd Ammendmant firearms. But consider that no president of the US has ever had an IQ measured above 130. That's because, basically, political officials aren't elected based on any measure of intelligence at all, but on the basis of who can convince the most morons to vote for them. Any environmental scientist in the world will tell you that the natural enviroment is so complex that they still can't even completely understand it themselves, and yet environmental policy is being decided by people who know little and care less and are only interested in creating jobs and lowering fuel prices by drilling for oil in Alaska.

By comparison, Timothy McVeigh had an IQ of 138. He was intelligent enough to blow up a building full of children, but too intelligent to be president. (And yes, cuz I know somebody's going to dispute it, IQ tests DO measure the functional capacity of the left side of your brain-- Intellect-- tho they don't measure such things as how good of a use you put that intellect to, or non-intellectual mental functions such as artistic or psychic abilities, or how well you can fast-talk people into voting for you.)

Plato had the idea that people SHOULD be career politicians, but not in the sense of catering to the banalities of the masses, but by studying science and philosophy, and so making themselves the most qualified people to make governmental decisions in exactly the same way that, say, architects are the most qualified people to make decisions about effective architecture.

The American Indians lived here for 10,000 years or more before the Whites came. By modern standards, there was no war, famine, plague, crime, pollution, overpopulation, alcoholism, or genocide. When the Whites came, they brought all of those with them, because... well, it's a long story and I'm probably running out of keystrokes. Basically, they had developed totalitarian agriculture which had allowed them to more or less completely seperate their ability to survive from the survival of the world around them, with the result that they'd built a society of lots of people who were good at pushing plows and didn't know sh*t about how to keep from destroying the world around them in the process.

My point is, I wish things were as simple as Democrats vs. Republicans, or even political parties vs. voters, but that's barely even the beginning. It's western paradigm vs. humanity & nature. And the one thing that Tim McV discovered that I do have to agree with in principle, unless you can figure out some way to make the public care more about your cause than they do about Monday Night football, you're never going to change anything. That's what we're up against. As far as I can see, anyway.

Casting A Huge Defeated *sigh* Nov 2nd. at 10:00:13 am EST

Myrddin (Wisconsin) Age: 55 - Email

It's very frustrating when people don't READ what you have said or bother to understand what you are saying, but instead jump on a button word and make assumptions entirely opposite about your position.

It's even more frustrating to have "revisionist" crap thrown out there, usually by somebody who just HAS to tell you that he/she has traveled 'far and wide' in the world, and then starts spouting tired old half-truths and mis-truths....thereby indicating they are one of those who don't do their research but instead accept the politicized versions of "sound bites" that "researchers" with political agendas spread around.

Ah Well. It's why we ARE in the state we are in. Those who make politics a career count on the vast numbers of voters who are too lazy to do their own research, too apathetic or too involved in their own personal lives to use common sense, or too willing to allow themselves to be polarized rather than pick candidates - no matter what party - who believe fervently in at least the basics of Bill of Rights as sacrosanct.

It's why when Clinton was getting BJ's in the Oval Office a huge outcry was raised saying it was his own business (it was not - it's against federal laws and sexual harrassment regulations as it was done on federal property......and lying about it was a felony) while at the same time the same media and "public" wants to use Governor Bush's daughter's problems against him in the election - why isn't THAT his own business.

Keep up with the polarities folks. It's what they want you to do.

And buddy, that guy DID set the Reichstag fire. Do your damn research. History Channel, A&E have both come around to sifting out our own propaganda from the facts. Try to do likewise. Moreover, I don't give a DAMN if Plato thought career politicians were a good idea. He also subscribed to the idea of a benevolent ruling elite while the rest of the poor slobs were assumed to be too damn dumb to make their own decisions for themselves.......exactly the same opinion Clinton had of us.

Local Elections Count Too Nov 2nd. at 8:08:41 pm EST

John (ohio, usa) Age: 35 - Email

I am concentrating on local and state elections; where I live, there are no federal offices up for election.

I vote; I am independent (not affiliated by party); and I vote for the best person / issue.

In Ohio (a state in the U.S.), we have two contests that are interesting to me.

One contest is a state-wide issue (which I support) which would mandate drug treatment for nonviolent criminal offenders. This is an attempt to make up for the failed drug courts in Ohio -- failed because they have not received enough funding by the state government.

That brings me to the other contest: the race for the governor. The incumbent will probably win, by a 60-40 margin, and that is disappointing. He is a well-meaning man, but he is politically ineffectual: he and the legislature are of the same political party (Republican), yet the governor has been unable to get any part of his program passed by the legislature. As a result, Ohio's educational system is grossly underfunded, and high tech jobs / new economy jobs are either leaving the state or not coming here. The challenger (Democrat: Tim Hagan, whom I support) might not be perfect, but he is clear and dynamic and he knows how to cut a political deal: to make something happen.

This brings me to my point: local elections count too. The presidency is important, and so is the congress, but we in America mostly live in states: which have their own elections, for their own governments, which effect the day-to-day issues of life most of all. Debating how to fund universities treat drug addicts or other local/state issues might not be as "sexy" as the great issues of the world, but they *are* the great issues of daily life, here (wherever here is for you) and now.

Peace, blessings and blessed be.


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