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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 10,110,436  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 258

Lurker/Post Ratio: 127 to 1

Question of the Week: 104 - 3/24/2003

Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq?

Many people were initially for or against the possibility of a war in Iraq. Now that it is a reality and troops are on the ground, have you changed your mind or your position on the war?

Do you think that anti-war protests should cease? Do you think that an even greater divide has opened up between those who hold differing ideologies?

Do you think that the suspension of certain civil liberties for security reasons is appropriate during war time? Do YOU feel safer? Will the world be more secure because of this action?

What – if anything – concerns you the most about the war in Iraq?

 Reponses:   There are 258 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Propagada + Lies - Open Your Eyes Mar 25th. at 8:06:32 am UTC

elf (cornwall, england) Age: 23 - Email


Bush talks about the humanitarian reasons for this war and it makes me sick. Who sold Saddam the weapons? When he was murdering the Kurds with chemicals, the US sold him a billion dollars worth of arms (including anthrax) and they were fully aware of what he was doing. Truth is, your government are perfectly happy to support dictators, as long as they support the interests of the US. They have shown that time and time again.

Baghdad is an ancient city - one of the oldest in the world, and it's people love it. The written word (ie. writing in sentances etc) started there. It is, so to speak, the "cradle of civilisation". You don't liberate people by bombing them into obliteration and the idea they are going to come out in the street waving and welcoming us is naiive in the extreme. They hate Saddam, but hate as much what they (and many other countries) see as imperialist America.

In the small rural town in which I live, there was an anti-war demo and the people there, young and old, burnt the American flag. It was said that this was not against the American people but against American imperialist politics.

Basically, we in Europe and those people in the middle-east, think your government are all out for world-domination. They lie to you and you believe it. There is a mass campaign here to take Tony Blair to court for war crimes and it will happen. I perfectly understand the position of the Iraqi people and why they are fighting the American and British armies. No offence, but don't believe everything you hear on TV guys, the propaganda is coming thick and fast.


It's Awful Mar 25th. at 8:08:32 am UTC

StarDaughter (London England) Age: 15 - Email


I actually was totally pro war and I was really annoyed by all the protesters but...
It's horrible.I can't even begin to imagine how the POWs families must feel and also how anybody cna deal with the tragedy.An English newsreader was killed when his vehicle was hit by crossfire. I wish it would end.


Will The UN Attack US? Mar 25th. at 8:28:11 am UTC

Swanwillow (Bemidji, MN) Age: 20 - Email


Ok, now, people may tell me that i'm full of crap, but I'm getting ready for everyone that we've pissed off in the past 6 months to attack us. If they don't, I'll get mad at them!!! We need a new government alot worse thanIraq does!!! we fully support people that are bad and wrong, do the wrong things, ect. ect...
SO, people over yonder, please attack us and destroy our govenment!!!


The News Mar 25th. at 8:35:21 am UTC

Belisamasana (Wausau, Wisconsin) Age: 33 - Email


I'm a stay at home mom, and I've been sick, so last week I didn't leave the house much. I began becomming interested in this impending war months and months ago, and have spent many hours watching and LISTENING to Fox News Live, The O'Reilly Factor, Hannity & Colmes, Meet the Press, Face the Nation and I listen to talk radio in the car. I have become a news junkie, as have a lot of us. I do not lie when I say that I watch the news at least 10 hours a day. I watch entire programs, not just between commercials. My husband who is a bigger news junkie than I am, is in the Army National Guard, so every time something new happens, we tell each other how much we love each other. Now when the phone rings I am nervous, because I believe he will be called up. I just found out last week that I'm pregnant. I have a lot to think about and I have a touch of insomnia, so I watch the news. I'm informed.

My point is this. I don't just watch my half hour of Dan Rather every evening. I listen to the embedded reporters. I listen to the politicians. I listen to General Tommy Franks and I watch all press conferences. I don't shut out what I don't want to hear. I don't type on pure emotion. I listen, absorb, and comment when I think I know the facts. I support Bush and the war. Most of all, I support our troops and the coalition of forces.


A Mind Divided Mar 25th. at 8:55:35 am UTC

RuneWolf (Reston, VA) Age: 44 - Email - Web


No, I haven’t changed my mind. It remains thoroughly divided.

I believe that Saddam Hussein is a dangerous megalomaniac who probably still possesses, and intends to increase, stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. And he certainly has proven that he is willing to use them, even on his own citizens. So it’s really only a matter of time before he turns them on a randomly chosen neighbor. I also believe that, if any government is actively supporting and supplying anti-American terrorists, it is Saddam’s regime. If any contemporary national leader needs to be toppled, for the good of that nation’s people, for the good of neighboring states, for the good of America and the world, it is certainly Saddam.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe that’s what this war is about. In my heart of hearts, I believe it is about George W. Bush’s ego.

In recovery circles, there is the term “dry drunk.” A dry drunk is someone who no longer drinks, but still exhibits the dysfunctional behavior of an active alcoholic. Dubya is a classic dry drunk. He’s shot his mouth off so many times, that now he has to create tremendous chaos, confusion and destruction just so he doesn’t have to admit that he was wrong. Most of the time, such damage is limited to someone’s family, friends, workplace and/or home. Unfortunately, when the dry drunk in question is the CiC of the world’s largest military power…

If I truly felt that this war was about freeing the Iraqi people and protecting the world from terrorism, I would feel a whole lot better. But I can’t escape the horrible feeling that it’s really all about one person’s ego.

And the fact that, if we win, a sizable portion of the worlds oil supply will be under our direct control is, I suppose, merely coincidence.

Nonetheless, I fully support and honor our troops over there. Those young women and men are just doing their job, and whatever our feelings may be about the current administration and its war, we owe our troops our honor, respect and support.


To Swanwillow Mar 25th. at 9:39:18 am UTC

Rick (Wisconsin, USA) Age: 31 - Email


So, what kind of government would you prefer? Maybe the cult of personality dictatorship that we are currently removing in Iraq? But then you would have your hand drilled through with an electric drill the first time you spoke out against the government.

Well, how about one of the semi socialist democracies of Scandanavia? hmmm, but the only reason they were able to pay for that socialism is because during the cold war the evil US paid for their defense with both money and troops, that would compromise your political purity, can't have that.

Lets see.... How about a theoretically correct peoples republic? Like North Korea or Cuba or the Peoples Republic of China? Hmmm, unfortunately, in North Korea, you would starve because they can't feed themselves, in Cuba, you would probably drown trying to swim to the US like half the population is trying to do every year, and in China, well you would most likely be imprisoned when you protested because of Tianenmann square (forgive spelling there) , or against the occupation of Tibet, and you would end up serving as forced slave labor in one of the work camps run by the military to make cheap electronics or shirts to sell to the capitalist running dog Americans.

Wow Swanwillow, looks like you had better think long and hard about who attacks the US and changes our government. There is also the inconvenient fact that our unjust, biased, uncompassionate form of government has managed to build the strongest economy in the world, and that has made us, militarily and economically, the most powerful nation in the world.

So pick very carefully. Maybe those people in that Ivory Tower over there, across the rainbow, I think it is called either Erewhon, or Utopia, maybe they can help you out.


Skeggi, Skeggi, Skeggi..... Sigh Mar 25th. at 10:00:37 am UTC

Rick (Wisconsin, USA) Age: 31 - Email


Skeggi, get your lips off the pot pipe, and get your head into a history book. That stuff kills brain cells, and if you can't tell, everyone that listens to you can. I don't dispute that the ANZAC's, both Australian and Kiwi, were brave as hell, and did an excellent job in WW2. But without the US, you would be speaking Japanese and eating Sushi right now. The reason you can afford not to have an airforce is because you know that if Communist China moved south with an eye to take over your country, the US would step in and spank them in your defense. As for the Russians, they took more casualties, but without our support, and the blood we shed against the Germans, they would be speaking German right now, those that weren't dead.

Now, reallly Skeggi, when you make all encompassing statements like "you have been involved in every war since the industrial revolution", you really have to expect some people to have a handle on reality and know their history. There are plenty of wars that we haven't been involved in since the late 1700's. Napoleons wars, the Russo-Japanese war, the Franco-Prussian war, etc. Not really a dig on you, well, yeah it is I guess. Don't make sweeping statements unless they are true, or at least defensible.

Casualties haven't been shown with faces visible in the US because it wouldn't very nice to have Mrs. Hobart to collapse after seeing her little Johnny with a hole in his head after being executed by Iraqi soldiers that captured him now would it? It is just out of concern for the families of the dead, wounded and captured. It was a decision of the networks, not the government.

You amaze me, you seem to enjoy using your freedoms, notably your freedom of speech. Why do you have a problem with trying to give the Iraqi people the same or at least comparable rights? How can you explain the reactions of the everyday Iraqi's in the cities we have liberated? (yes, liberated) They are dancing, and singing, kissing the feet of their liberators, (yes liberators) . You mention the Iraqi soldiers fighting well... You call executing POW's, posing as civilians to execute ambushes, and mis-using white flags to move around fighting well? But US forces, taking every precaution not to harm civilians, and causing so low a level of civilian casualties as to be unique in history, I suppose we are fighting poorly, are demoralized, and about to surrender, that must be it.

I know I am not going to change your mind, "there are none so blind as those who will not see."

Have a nice day Skeggi, and be sure to enjoy those freedoms that you have, think of where the whole concept of individual freedom came from, and which nation was the first to actually implement them.


I Needed To Be Done For The Last 12 Years. Mar 25th. at 11:10:44 am UTC

James (Washington DC) Age: 24 - Email


I am a Navy pagan, or rather a metaphysician. I try to judge everything (manifest and incorporeal) that is put in my path as impartially as possible. I have been in the Navy for 6 years and have had the unique perspective of seeing the Beast first hand. I was part the Dogs of War when my ship deployed to the Arabian Gulf in 1999.

Before I went to the gulf I thought that the war was long over and that Iraq had become a peaceful nation. When we arrived on scene and our mission was laid out before us, I found out that the Navy had been in armed conflict with Iraq from the day former Pres. Bush called the Army out of Baghdad. We hadn’t stopped bombing them. Iraq would move an unauthorized weapon system into an engagement area and we would blow it up.

We are doing what we should have done 12 years ago. We are doing what has to be done.
The Ba’at party is a danger to the world.

When we are done, if the president gets his wishes passed though congress, $7.8 billion will be funned into Iraq in reconstruction and aid. A new democratic government will be formed and we will let the people of Iraq rule themselves.

We will put out the fires that the ruling regime started 20 years ago and we will clean up the ashes of burned out country. The People of Iraq will make a nation rich with resources and valued in the international community.
History shows that’s what we do.

Look at Japan and German -- Know the truth.


James Mar 25th. at 11:12:44 am UTC

Rick (Wisconsin) Age: 31 - Email


Good points


To Debate The War Or To Not , That Is The Question , Or Is It Mar 25th. at 11:36:58 am UTC

Fantom Flame (Alabama) Age: 23 - Email


I heard it said alot of times ..and as i watch the news and hear the comentaires whether on tv or form people the questions of whether we should be other in Irac still lingers the same way .If you dont like the war or what the president is doing at least support or pray for the mne and women the president has sent other to fight in Irac .As heard o nthe quote and what remainds my opino of it all, " I am not support the war , but i will give my support to the trops .Lets pray that we see our friends and loveds ones saftly home and pray for those of the familes who do not .


Haven't Changed My Mind Mar 25th. at 1:28:13 pm UTC

rifek (Washington) Age: 42 - Email


I've never been opposed to the possibility of war with Iraq (Opposing statistical probabilities is futile. You can be for or against the occurrence but not the probability.) I'm also not opposed to a regime-change war, as I consider Saddam a jerk who needs run out of office (I feel the same about Bush, but that's a different topic.) . Nevertheless, I am opposed to this war.

First, the US has no authority to unilaterally enforce UN resolutions. Those resolutions were expressly addressing the invasion of Kuwait (no longer relevant) and authorized force only that far. There was then a formal cease-fire, and the Security Council retained jurisdiction, meaning further actions have to be approved by the Security Council. There has been no such approval. As about every, independent, international legal scholar (even those at The Vatican) has concluded, enforcement of the UN resolutions without Security Council approval is illegal.

Second, the US would still have the right to act unilaterally if Iraq had attacked or were obviously about to attack us. There has been no such showing. There is no evidence Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, and bin Laden considers Saddam an infidel who must be destroyed. His supposedly long-range missiles all tested out to be short range (a fact brought home by their current performance, where on a good day they can reach Kuwait) . His weapons of mass destruction are still missing in inaction, even though his regime is backed against a wall and one would expect him to be using them now (The weekend report that US troops had captured a "huge" chemical weapons plant has now completely disappeared from all the news services, apparently a fairy tale.) . The detailed intelligence report Powell waved before the UN was a bad grad student paper relying on decade-old data. Drawing from my days as a prosecutor, the US case has consisted of the prosecutor's opening argument ("I have lot's of evidence that the defendant is guilty.") and then no trial, with the jury having to decide based on only the argument and no evidence. In spite of the best efforts of John Ashcroft and a couple of Supreme Court justices, that's not how things work.

Finally, we're not being smart. Once again we march off to war without an exit strategy. "Liberate Iraq" is a slogan, not a strategy. What are we going to do, and what will it take? We succeeded in Germany and Japan, but it took years, billions of dollars, and occupation armies (We didn't finally put down the Nazi Werewolf guerrillas in Germany until 1948.) . With the Soviet threat, we were willing to do it. Without such a threat, countries we've "liberated" have quickly disappeared from our consciousness and been allowed to decay until they blow up sufficiently that we wake up and launch "Whack the Tin-Pot Dictator Part II." For every German success, the US has left at least a dozen failures around the world (Look at Afghanistan, the Philippines, and about every country in Latin America and Africa.) . Without a plan, and the motivation to see it through, we're just setting another time bomb.

The war is illegal and has no political objective sufficiently defined as to be workable. Therefore I remain against it.


My Mind Has Not Changed Mar 25th. at 1:48:50 pm UTC

Avian (BC, Canada) Age: 23 - Email


I still think that this war is just Bush's first step in trying to take over the world. I do want to say though, that I find it sad and digusting that so many Americans are attacking anyone who disagrees with their own veiws.

It seems that I see it everywhere I look. On the news, on the street, and even here - this place is supposed to be a haven (or it was for me anyway) , where you could go and know that we were a community of like minded Pagans. We all have had similar pasts, and we all have similar beliefs, but now politics have ruined that. It is now the US against everyone else. You don't have to be defensive when someone comes on and expresses their anger over what your government is doing - most of the world knows that it isn't the people, it is the Shrub.

I can't say that I support your troops in what they are doing. I have nothing against the men and women who are giving their lives, they think that they are making a noble sacrifice. The fact that they are the invading force shouldn't change the fact that they are good people - I, by no means, want to see a repeat of what happened to the troops when they returned from Vietnam. That said, I think that the sooner Bush is impeached the sooner your soldiers can come home, and the sooner the US can start to rebuild some of the bridges that are burning all over the world.

Remember that we all have to live here people - Our Mother is crying out in pain and saddness now - we should be more evolved than this by now.


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