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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,041,061  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 258

Lurker/Post Ratio: 127 to 1

Question of the Week: 104 - 3/24/2003

Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq?

Many people were initially for or against the possibility of a war in Iraq. Now that it is a reality and troops are on the ground, have you changed your mind or your position on the war?

Do you think that anti-war protests should cease? Do you think that an even greater divide has opened up between those who hold differing ideologies?

Do you think that the suspension of certain civil liberties for security reasons is appropriate during war time? Do YOU feel safer? Will the world be more secure because of this action?

What – if anything – concerns you the most about the war in Iraq?

 Reponses:   There are 258 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

To Swanwillow Mar 25th. at 9:39:18 am EST

Rick (Wisconsin, USA) Age: 31 - Email

So, what kind of government would you prefer? Maybe the cult of personality dictatorship that we are currently removing in Iraq? But then you would have your hand drilled through with an electric drill the first time you spoke out against the government.

Well, how about one of the semi socialist democracies of Scandanavia? hmmm, but the only reason they were able to pay for that socialism is because during the cold war the evil US paid for their defense with both money and troops, that would compromise your political purity, can't have that.

Lets see.... How about a theoretically correct peoples republic? Like North Korea or Cuba or the Peoples Republic of China? Hmmm, unfortunately, in North Korea, you would starve because they can't feed themselves, in Cuba, you would probably drown trying to swim to the US like half the population is trying to do every year, and in China, well you would most likely be imprisoned when you protested because of Tianenmann square (forgive spelling there) , or against the occupation of Tibet, and you would end up serving as forced slave labor in one of the work camps run by the military to make cheap electronics or shirts to sell to the capitalist running dog Americans.

Wow Swanwillow, looks like you had better think long and hard about who attacks the US and changes our government. There is also the inconvenient fact that our unjust, biased, uncompassionate form of government has managed to build the strongest economy in the world, and that has made us, militarily and economically, the most powerful nation in the world.

So pick very carefully. Maybe those people in that Ivory Tower over there, across the rainbow, I think it is called either Erewhon, or Utopia, maybe they can help you out.

Skeggi, Skeggi, Skeggi..... Sigh Mar 25th. at 10:00:37 am EST

Rick (Wisconsin, USA) Age: 31 - Email

Skeggi, get your lips off the pot pipe, and get your head into a history book. That stuff kills brain cells, and if you can't tell, everyone that listens to you can. I don't dispute that the ANZAC's, both Australian and Kiwi, were brave as hell, and did an excellent job in WW2. But without the US, you would be speaking Japanese and eating Sushi right now. The reason you can afford not to have an airforce is because you know that if Communist China moved south with an eye to take over your country, the US would step in and spank them in your defense. As for the Russians, they took more casualties, but without our support, and the blood we shed against the Germans, they would be speaking German right now, those that weren't dead.

Now, reallly Skeggi, when you make all encompassing statements like "you have been involved in every war since the industrial revolution", you really have to expect some people to have a handle on reality and know their history. There are plenty of wars that we haven't been involved in since the late 1700's. Napoleons wars, the Russo-Japanese war, the Franco-Prussian war, etc. Not really a dig on you, well, yeah it is I guess. Don't make sweeping statements unless they are true, or at least defensible.

Casualties haven't been shown with faces visible in the US because it wouldn't very nice to have Mrs. Hobart to collapse after seeing her little Johnny with a hole in his head after being executed by Iraqi soldiers that captured him now would it? It is just out of concern for the families of the dead, wounded and captured. It was a decision of the networks, not the government.

You amaze me, you seem to enjoy using your freedoms, notably your freedom of speech. Why do you have a problem with trying to give the Iraqi people the same or at least comparable rights? How can you explain the reactions of the everyday Iraqi's in the cities we have liberated? (yes, liberated) They are dancing, and singing, kissing the feet of their liberators, (yes liberators) . You mention the Iraqi soldiers fighting well... You call executing POW's, posing as civilians to execute ambushes, and mis-using white flags to move around fighting well? But US forces, taking every precaution not to harm civilians, and causing so low a level of civilian casualties as to be unique in history, I suppose we are fighting poorly, are demoralized, and about to surrender, that must be it.

I know I am not going to change your mind, "there are none so blind as those who will not see."

Have a nice day Skeggi, and be sure to enjoy those freedoms that you have, think of where the whole concept of individual freedom came from, and which nation was the first to actually implement them.

I Needed To Be Done For The Last 12 Years. Mar 25th. at 11:10:44 am EST

James (Washington DC) Age: 24 - Email

I am a Navy pagan, or rather a metaphysician. I try to judge everything (manifest and incorporeal) that is put in my path as impartially as possible. I have been in the Navy for 6 years and have had the unique perspective of seeing the Beast first hand. I was part the Dogs of War when my ship deployed to the Arabian Gulf in 1999.

Before I went to the gulf I thought that the war was long over and that Iraq had become a peaceful nation. When we arrived on scene and our mission was laid out before us, I found out that the Navy had been in armed conflict with Iraq from the day former Pres. Bush called the Army out of Baghdad. We hadn’t stopped bombing them. Iraq would move an unauthorized weapon system into an engagement area and we would blow it up.

We are doing what we should have done 12 years ago. We are doing what has to be done.
The Ba’at party is a danger to the world.

When we are done, if the president gets his wishes passed though congress, $7.8 billion will be funned into Iraq in reconstruction and aid. A new democratic government will be formed and we will let the people of Iraq rule themselves.

We will put out the fires that the ruling regime started 20 years ago and we will clean up the ashes of burned out country. The People of Iraq will make a nation rich with resources and valued in the international community.
History shows that’s what we do.

Look at Japan and German -- Know the truth.

James Mar 25th. at 11:12:44 am EST

Rick (Wisconsin) Age: 31 - Email

Good points

To Debate The War Or To Not , That Is The Question , Or Is It Mar 25th. at 11:36:58 am EST

Fantom Flame (Alabama) Age: 23 - Email

I heard it said alot of times ..and as i watch the news and hear the comentaires whether on tv or form people the questions of whether we should be other in Irac still lingers the same way .If you dont like the war or what the president is doing at least support or pray for the mne and women the president has sent other to fight in Irac .As heard o nthe quote and what remainds my opino of it all, " I am not support the war , but i will give my support to the trops .Lets pray that we see our friends and loveds ones saftly home and pray for those of the familes who do not .

Haven't Changed My Mind Mar 25th. at 1:28:13 pm EST

rifek (Washington) Age: 42 - Email

I've never been opposed to the possibility of war with Iraq (Opposing statistical probabilities is futile. You can be for or against the occurrence but not the probability.) I'm also not opposed to a regime-change war, as I consider Saddam a jerk who needs run out of office (I feel the same about Bush, but that's a different topic.) . Nevertheless, I am opposed to this war.

First, the US has no authority to unilaterally enforce UN resolutions. Those resolutions were expressly addressing the invasion of Kuwait (no longer relevant) and authorized force only that far. There was then a formal cease-fire, and the Security Council retained jurisdiction, meaning further actions have to be approved by the Security Council. There has been no such approval. As about every, independent, international legal scholar (even those at The Vatican) has concluded, enforcement of the UN resolutions without Security Council approval is illegal.

Second, the US would still have the right to act unilaterally if Iraq had attacked or were obviously about to attack us. There has been no such showing. There is no evidence Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, and bin Laden considers Saddam an infidel who must be destroyed. His supposedly long-range missiles all tested out to be short range (a fact brought home by their current performance, where on a good day they can reach Kuwait) . His weapons of mass destruction are still missing in inaction, even though his regime is backed against a wall and one would expect him to be using them now (The weekend report that US troops had captured a "huge" chemical weapons plant has now completely disappeared from all the news services, apparently a fairy tale.) . The detailed intelligence report Powell waved before the UN was a bad grad student paper relying on decade-old data. Drawing from my days as a prosecutor, the US case has consisted of the prosecutor's opening argument ("I have lot's of evidence that the defendant is guilty.") and then no trial, with the jury having to decide based on only the argument and no evidence. In spite of the best efforts of John Ashcroft and a couple of Supreme Court justices, that's not how things work.

Finally, we're not being smart. Once again we march off to war without an exit strategy. "Liberate Iraq" is a slogan, not a strategy. What are we going to do, and what will it take? We succeeded in Germany and Japan, but it took years, billions of dollars, and occupation armies (We didn't finally put down the Nazi Werewolf guerrillas in Germany until 1948.) . With the Soviet threat, we were willing to do it. Without such a threat, countries we've "liberated" have quickly disappeared from our consciousness and been allowed to decay until they blow up sufficiently that we wake up and launch "Whack the Tin-Pot Dictator Part II." For every German success, the US has left at least a dozen failures around the world (Look at Afghanistan, the Philippines, and about every country in Latin America and Africa.) . Without a plan, and the motivation to see it through, we're just setting another time bomb.

The war is illegal and has no political objective sufficiently defined as to be workable. Therefore I remain against it.

My Mind Has Not Changed Mar 25th. at 1:48:50 pm EST

Avian (BC, Canada) Age: 23 - Email

I still think that this war is just Bush's first step in trying to take over the world. I do want to say though, that I find it sad and digusting that so many Americans are attacking anyone who disagrees with their own veiws.

It seems that I see it everywhere I look. On the news, on the street, and even here - this place is supposed to be a haven (or it was for me anyway) , where you could go and know that we were a community of like minded Pagans. We all have had similar pasts, and we all have similar beliefs, but now politics have ruined that. It is now the US against everyone else. You don't have to be defensive when someone comes on and expresses their anger over what your government is doing - most of the world knows that it isn't the people, it is the Shrub.

I can't say that I support your troops in what they are doing. I have nothing against the men and women who are giving their lives, they think that they are making a noble sacrifice. The fact that they are the invading force shouldn't change the fact that they are good people - I, by no means, want to see a repeat of what happened to the troops when they returned from Vietnam. That said, I think that the sooner Bush is impeached the sooner your soldiers can come home, and the sooner the US can start to rebuild some of the bridges that are burning all over the world.

Remember that we all have to live here people - Our Mother is crying out in pain and saddness now - we should be more evolved than this by now.

Who Are You??? Mar 25th. at 1:55:11 pm EST

Katun (Germany) Age: 36 - Email

No, I have not changed my mind about the war on Iraq, but what happened in the last months has fundamentally changed my view about the US.

Up to then I was always convinced that we - Americans and Europeans - had a lot in common. We share a similar cultural background, read the same books, watch the same movies, laugh about the same stupid jokes and there is no big difference in our values, in what we think is right or wrong - or so it seemed.

Now it looks to me as if we lived on different planets. I don't understand how you can completely ignore the voices of the vast majority of humankind. I don't understand this eagerness to rush to war. I absolutely don't understand why you should feel threatened by a third world country thousands of miles away, unless there is proof (not propaganda, not rumour) that they have links with terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. I don't understand all this fuss about Saddam Hussein being a dictator: of course he is! Cruel, reckless, anything - but the US have never had any difficulty with any dictator in the last decades, as long as they where pro America. I don't understand how you can fall for all these lies and this pseudo argumentation. This is not about democracy - wake up! I don't understand, why you call us Europeans anti-American. Most of us love America. We have friends amongst you, we love your great landscapes, travel to see your amazing cities and we don't suddenly rename our "pommes frites" or boykott American products (I wonder: is it still "french kissing" or has it become "freedom kissing"?) .

We are Pagans, right? What unites us is our deep respect for life itself - or that's what I always thought. I'm no pacifist, I think every individual and every nation have the right to defend themselves - if they are being attacked. Whatever links your government may construct: I have not seen Iraq drop a single bomb on any American city. There was no reason to rush to war. Maybe that's one of the big differences between the US and Europe: Every European child has grown up with first hand stories of what war is like. Of nights spend in cellars, while the sirens screamed, of women being raped, of children being mutilated, of cruelty beyond imagination. You should see our elder generation joining the peace rallies at the moment: I have never seen so many old people crying as the memory of WW2 comes back to them.

For life's sake - think again! The misery of families whose houses are destroyed, who are left without drinkable water, who travel hundreds of miles through desert, despair and uncertainty just to get away from the bombs, for the lives of your own soldiers, their families, their children - think again, change your minds!

I Don't Care What The UN Says Is Illegal. Mar 25th. at 1:57:55 pm EST

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email

I don't care if his weapons can reach US soil. I don't care if it is proven that he doesn't have WMD anymore. He needs taken out. The reasons presented to the UN were only one part of the attrocities he has done. Cause it was the only thing close enough that the UN would approach him about. I don't care if he was responsible for September 11th or not. He was a prime target cause other terror organizations relied on the fact that saddam protected them from us and would not let us in to inspect.. Saddam has never complied with the UN's requests. He has enough money to make solomon blush. He aides families of suicide bombers for their loss trying to make their cause just in the eyes of the starving. I just don't care.. he is a rabid animal that needs to be put down. That really is the main thing that everyone agrees on. and to say you you do see that he is a horrible man and that he kills his own people but are not willing to help them fight back means you are turning your back on the Iraqi people. Something they will make clear to France and germany when they have an actual say in their own contry. Just like Germany has now. And as far as bush. I have to give him credit for one thing.. At least he is willing to take all your heated hate for him and still be willing to be the one who takes all this blame for this. He will take the blame and we can vote someone else in. so for that I am *shudders* glad he is president for right now. but I don't want him to be in for a second term. but at least he is fixing a problem that needs to be fixed. we can't have people from all countries who want the american way of life on this soil. so we need to give others the tools they need to have their version that THEY CHOOSE. so that they can make their dream in their homeland and not have to worry about oppression (which still exsists in the world contrary to what some seem to think) and those people will not peacefully comply. Talk is cheap. actions speak volumes.

Just What I Thought Mar 25th. at 2:09:49 pm EST

Anjie (North Dakota) Age: 20 - Email

I have to say, the main thing that most immediately annoys me about this war is that some people seem to think this has anything to do with getting revenge for September 11th. IT DOESN'T! There is no evidence that Sadam Heusein had anything to do with those attacks. Ok, now that i've gotten that off my chest, i'll move on to the views that are less... annoying and more disturbing.
What disturbs me most about the war is that myself and a friend of mine (and from what i've heard, many others) saw it comming, in a sence. That isn't to say that we saw the battle plans and knew the face of the enemy, at least, I didn't. What we felt was that the world is getting tired. The Earth is tired of the way things have been going, and it's getting ready to make major changes.
My friend and I believe that a majority of the countries as we know them will no longer... exist... not in the physical sence, but in the political. At the very least, the major countries, the USA in particular, will be rendered nearly impotent. We feel that this war is the first step on a long road to the ends we've seen/felt. We've likened it to the end of the world, only it's not realy ending, it's just being re-organized, cleaned up, and straightened out. As if the Earth has a major spring cleaning every couple of thousands of years, and that year is comming up fast.
I've made a very few anonymous suggestions about what i've seen on public posting boards on my campus, and they have not been well met at all. I've been called many names that don't deserve to be repeated in the responces to my small hints. If whomever is reading this feels the need to contact me, weather to insult me or to discuss with me or what have you, feel free to e-mail me.
Finally, I must say that I do NOT feel safer because of this war. I most definately feel less safe, more exposed, than ever before. Lord and Lady protect us all.

Still The Same... Mar 25th. at 2:32:06 pm EST

jade (canada) Age: 16 - Email

i am opposed to war, and i always have been. there are too may casualties in war, too many innocent lives are taken. war should not be an option! i think that the u.s. government is making a grave mistake! but hey, that's just me, and all the other people who are protesting this war!

I Feel The Call From The Earth Too.. Mar 25th. at 2:34:15 pm EST

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email

Avian, Americans are not the only ones throwing stones in this. Yes, witchvox is a place for like minded pagans to gather and share views but you must accept before entering this debate is that this invokes serious emotion in alot of people on both sides and that we all have not had similar pasts, nor do we hav similar beliefs persay due to the fact that the term pagan can not be pegged to one specific tenet of belief. Politics have not ruined the integrity of this site in any way. I think it is helping us all get to opine on what we feel. It is not the US against everyone else as we are not the only ones undertaking this. I can understand frustration when it comes to the bush administration. I am not a fan of the Patriot act (or the second that may be coming) or the faith based initiative that he has put down (nor all the other things that he may have in the works) . But in a heated conversation such as this one, it is all to easy to replace "your country" with "you" and that is where the defense mechanisms kick in. It is sad but it is true

Anjie, I am truly sorry for your opinion not being welcomed at some places but here IT IS! (can't speak for anyone but me mind you) I do agree with you on the fact that the earth is getting tired and that a "spring cleaning" as you said is upon us. I look at this war as cleaning under the fridge so there is less to do later in restructuring. But I don't think that the US is going to be rendered impotent due to this war.. Russia's entire government was ripped apart and remade again and they are still considered a global super-power as they should be. They are not impotent. they changed. and isn't that what we as pagans like to embrace? change?

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