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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 10,348,012  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 263

Lurker/Post Ratio: 124 to 1

Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Alright, First And Foremost I Will Say That There Should Be A... Nov 10th. at 12:45:25 am UTC

KarEEna (Kenmore, Washington US) Age: 21 - Email


Alright, first and foremost I will say that there should be a revote in Florida. That kind of ballot confusion is just rediculous. The ballots should be redesigned and then all of Florida should revote.

And as for who I voted for and who I think should win . .. Gore, of course. He may be kinda wooden and a little slow at times but he is not Bush and that is the main thing that drew me to him. NOt only does Bush give me the creeps but he is misogynistic and way too conservative for modern living. He will take away religious freedom and women's rights. He wants to catipult the country back in time about 60 years or so. Look at his eyes . . . do you trust him? I certainly dont. Bush is dangerous for women as a whole and the non Christian community as well. Not just Pagans.

I dont think either candidate should give up though. To me, that would seem like they are giving up their convictions as to the issues and that just feels wrong to me. Definately a revote should happen though. And, hopefully, we will be graced with a president who is NOT Bush. :)


First Off, Yes...i Voted. As Did The Rest Of My Chosen... Nov 10th. at 2:01:42 am UTC

Catherine Wagner (Minneapolis, Minnesota US) Age: 31 - Email


First off, yes...I voted. As did the rest of my chosen family. In fact, there was quite the political debate raging in the house (the 4 of us live together - two couples). The two women (myself and the other wife) would have preferred to vote our consciences, but were absolutely convinced that if we did NOT vote for Bush, we would be literally throwing our vote away and allowing Bush to win. And I will NOT lay down and show my belly to someone like him. The men in the house, however, were of a different opinion. One voted Libertarian and the other voted Green.

I definitely feel something smells down in Florida. The whole thing stinks of fraud. And with the new numbers from CNN at 66 of 67 counties being +679 new votes for Bush (total FL votes of 2, 909, 814) and +2, 234 (!!!!!) new votes for Gore (for a total of FL votes of 2, 909, 585) - there is something rotten down there.

Florida has also has a past history of electoral corruption, and voting difficulties. PLUS it took good-ole-brother-boy Jeb until the AFTERNOON to withdraw from the election counting committee.

I don't think Gore is blameless in this situation either. But I definitely think that a re-vote in W. Palm Beach would be a fair idea.

But there's a problem with that too. Think about it. ONE county knows how the rest of America voted. Even if they limit the voting to ONLY those whose signatures show they voted on Tuesday, those who actually voted for Buchanan or Nader or one of the others will change their vote to Bush or Gore in hopes of swaying the vote to their preference. That is the portion that would be unfair.

So, frankly, if they have to revote there is either one of two solutions I can figure out. 1) if they revote, EVERYONE revotes or 2) if they revote, they MUST vote for the person they voted for the first time. Problem with #2 - how do you enforce that.

What will the impact be on us? Well...right now, the impact is no more nor no worse on Pagans than on the rest of the country. However, if Bush wins, and does so in a way that grants him moral and ethical support from the greater portion of the country...the only thing between him and his promises is the divided Congress - who are already calling for bipartisanship. He has promised to end abortion. He doesn't feel that we are a real religion, and it is likely he will try to do something to withdraw religious support for our military brethren. Bush is far more likely to take us many steps backward for the steps forward that we have already tried so hard to take. Gore at least doesn't have those issues. Yes, his integrity is questionable - but looking at the past 200 years, have we EVER really had a President whose integrity has been beyond question??


My Candidate Is Gore. I Think Te Political Wrangling In Florida Is... Nov 10th. at 2:20:20 am UTC

Amy (The Dalles, Oregon US) Age: 24


My candidate is Gore. I think te political wrangling in Florida is a bit ridiculous. And instead of making a big deal out of confusing ballots, tey should call veryone back into the polls and vote for pres again. The BIG impact? Maybe all states would end up with ballots that a uniform layout, like those in Oregon. Pagan community impact? I don't know.


Does Anyone Else Think It's Odd That The Only State (so Far... Nov 10th. at 3:10:56 am UTC

Neva Rowden (Castro Valley, California US) Age: 35 - Email


Does anyone else think it's odd that the only state (so far at least) to have major polling problems is a state run by George Bush's brother? Maybe there was tampering there to boost Bush's votes?

Yes, I voted. For Al Gore. And if it's such a problem why don't they just have a national re-election? I'll vote for Gore again, and again if need be. I think that if George Bush gets in the BIG chair we are all in serious trouble.

Just my humble opinion...

~Neva~


Yes I Voted, For Al Gore. Although I Wasn't Completely Sure I... Nov 10th. at 3:28:24 am UTC

Wendelyn S. Dyer (Pace, Florida US) Age: 23 - Email


Yes I voted, for Al Gore. Although I wasn't completely sure I wanted Gore in office, I knew for a fact that Bush wasn't the right choice. (I am now positive that Gore is the right man for the job after seeing how is handling the whole re count thing) I have been paying attention to the campaigns (as much as I could) and in the beginning I liked Bush, I felt like we needed fresh blood in the White House. Then RU-486 was approved and that same day Bush went up to the edge, stopping right before saying he would have the FDA ban the drugs here in the United States. Then when his views came out on Wicca not being valid I saw a man who is ruled by the christian church and his bible. (Not to offend anyone, merely my opinion) I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state, and a man who would govern as directed by his religion and not by the people who he governs is not only wrong but scary. I'm also very concerned about the justices of the supreme court. If they were to retire with Bush in office then Roe v. Wade is out the window.

Now on the Florida issue. I live in Florida and I have only seen one other Floridian post here. On Tuesday My brother and I went to the polls togethor, this was his very first election he could vote in, the woman who gave us our ballots did take about 15 seconds (one breath) to explain them, when asked to, basically there was an incomplete arrow, to vote for your candidate you just drew a line through the arrow next to his/her name. There were many candidates for the presidential election, congressional, local school supervisors and some referendums on the back, I understood this, my brother asked her to explain it again just so he would be sure. She looked at him like a complete idiot and treated him as such as she said it once again, this time a little slower. We went to our booths and filled in our arrows.
I'm positive who I voted for and so is my brother.

But if there are 19, 000 ballots in Palm Beach that were thrown out because of double voting, caused by the confusion created by the ballot, they should be allowed to recast thier vote, just so they are certain they voted for the person they want in office. This can easily be done. Everyone has to sign in when they come to vote, so there is a record of whether you voted or not and so be allowed to vote again.
I think that to avoid the chance of confusion in the future there should be a nationally agreed upon ballot, not for every election in every state necessarily, that would smack in the face of states rights but for the presidential election at least.

The Electoral College is outdated and unneeded. We should work towards having a constitutional amendment abolishing it. What is the point in telling people that thier vote counts when in all actuality we as the people of this country do not elect our presidents. For this election, every vote has counted and this will go down in history as the time each and every persons vote mattered.
But the E.C. will have the final say. That isn't the right way to do this, not in these modern times.

To sum up I voted, for Gore, the voters of Palm Beach should insist on recasting thier votes, and the Electoral College has to be rid of.


I Voted For Harry Browne. Yeah, That Libertarian Guy---what, Because I... Nov 10th. at 3:47:50 am UTC

Amanda (Dallas, Texas US) Age: 27 - Email


I voted for Harry Browne. Yeah, that Libertarian guy---what, because I am Pagan you expect me to be some kind of liberal? I read something on CNN.com the other day that proves illuminating in the light of all the wrangling going on in Florida. It states that Gore would probably take it very hard if he lost. Well, he lost--or maybe he did and maybe he didn't. In any case, he plans to challenge the results and fight for a runoff---gee, how will he do now that Nader is out of the picture? And if he gets what he wants, the GOP would then turn around (with some cause) and state that _Gore_ stole the election by using spurious claims of voter fraud (more like ID10T errors) to force a Nader-less runoff in heavily Democratic precincts. And forcing this Constitutional crisis serves what purpose? Gore's ego. He cannot believe he lost the electoral vote. Yes, he did win the popular vote, but look at the states he won. Some of the most liberal states are often some of the most populous. The Electoral College makes sure that the winner has a broader appeal. If we determined Presidential elections based on popular votes, we'd get as many liberal Democrats as y'all would like, but they'd all be a bunch of Yankees who don't know Silicon Valley from the Grand Canyon, and whose understanding of agriculture begins and ends at the grocery store. All this wrangling and maneuvering is not good for the country.


I Voted For Nader Because I Felt That Bush Would Win Because... Nov 10th. at 4:02:13 am UTC

lissa (vancouver, Washington US) Age: 23 - Email


I voted for Nader because I felt that Bush would win because he had 207 estimated votes from the electoral college the day before voting while Gore only had 105 or somewhere in that range. I hope that Nader got enough of the voting percentage to provide the Green party with some funding for the next election.

I totally disagree with Bush's ideas and plans to impose his will upon our supposed free country. I have a bad feeling that he will win.

Goddess help us.


I Voted. There Was Never Any Question That I Would Not Vote... Nov 10th. at 4:02:15 am UTC

Rich Ostorero (Sacramento, California US) Age: 41 - Email


I voted. There was never any question that I would not vote. It is a matter of exercising a sacred right bought and paid for in blood. A right, incedentally, that a third of the world's population do not possess.

This time around, the choice was clear-cut: Al Gore. Why? because he is not G.W. Bush and because he has the best chance to beat Bush. While I feel that Ralph Nader best represents my spiritual and political beliefs, I could not vote for a candidate with no chance of being elected when Bush said he did not believe that Witchcraft was a real religion.

The political wrangling going on in Florida is fascinating drama, a memorable real-world cliffhanger. It is also a prime example of what I have come to call Gingrich's Postualte. The former House Speaker paraphrased Clauswitz's definition of war: Politics is war conducted by other means.

In this case, the battlefield will be the courts. I expect an expensive, possibly protracted legal battle in which neither candidate will relent until a final decision is rendered by the US Supreme Court. There will be no quarter, no retreat and no surrender.

I expect the vector sum of this struggle to be thus: protracted gridlock on issues important to the American people. The loser of this struggle will take advantage of the near-equal division of power evident by the vote and do anything it can to erase the winner's gains. However, there will be no gridlock on issues important to Corporate America: "free" trade will continue to be shoved down the throats of American working people, HMOs will continue to put profit over health, the environment will suffer while the bottom line prospers, corporations will be allowed to merge without limit.

The impact on the Pagan community can be summerized thusly: In the short term -- if Bush wins, Pagans lose. Military Pagans can expect Bush to prohibit the practice of Witchcraft on military bases. Gays in the military can expect the Bad Old Days to return. We can expect members of militant majority religions to be emboldened in the advancement of their agendas; we can expect court cases where members of majority religions feel they are unable to practice their religion freely because of the presence of Pagans among them. We can also expect Bush to appoint Supreme Court justices who may well change the legal landscape -- deciding that women no longer have a right to control their reporductive destiny or concluding that the Craft is not entitled to First Amendment protection. The Bill of Rights may well be rewritten to apply only to corporations and members of majority religions if Bush packs the courts with right-wing, corporatist activist jurists. Under a Bush Administration, we can expect environmental protections to be eroded in favor of the schemes of corporate quick-buck artists; we can expect consumer protection to have a lower proirity than corporate profits; the needs of global big business will outweigh the needs of the local communities' poor, sick and elderly.

Bush will usher in a new political Dark Age for Pagans.

If Gore wins, we can expect more of the same we got from Clinton. We will still have to fight against globalization; the Battle of Seattle is but a first in a long campaign. Gore won't be an easy President to support. However, I believe that our fundimental rights to worship will not be endangered.

In the long term, a second President Bush may be just the force necessary to catalyze the Pagan community into a hotbed of political activism. We will suffer losses and we will fight back.


Yes, My Wife - Not A Pagan - And I Voted. We Both Bucked... Nov 10th. at 5:48:16 am UTC

Shadowcatcher (Cincinnati, Ohio US) Age: 54 - Email


Yes, my wife - not a pagan - and I voted. We both bucked the Ohio conservative tradition and went for Al Gore. Among the reasons we chose Gore; environmental concerns, greater sensitivity to health issues, stated goal of using the current budget surplus to pay down the debt rather than give a bonus to the rich and infamous, and the belief that Gore would name Supreme Court justices with a moderate to liberal outlook.

We both worry about official attitudes toward; racial and ethnic minorities, the poor, gays, pagans (Busch says witchcraft is not a religion and worship on military bases should end) and the environment.

Neither man should concede until there is a ballot-based resolution. This may require re-polling Floridians.

If Busch is the elctoral victor there should be no quibbling about electoralversus popular vote count--we know what the rules are. If we don't like the electoral college it should be eliminated legally, not by fiat.

The next four years will be unproductive -- neither presidential candidate has a mandate -- barely a majority-- and the congress -- both houses are nearly evenly divided which sets us up for massive gridlock and polarization.


I Have Taken A Very Objective View Of This Entire Thing. I... Nov 10th. at 6:10:30 am UTC

Maia BlackWolf (Milnesville, Pennsylvania US) Age: 32 - Email


I have taken a very objective view of this entire thing. I have basically sat back and watched the two major parties act like a bunch of undisciplined, spoiled children. Same thing that goes on every four years. That was due in part to the fact that my intention in this election was to vote with the hopes of getting a much needed third party in this country. So my hopes for this country went way beyond voting for Al Gore because "he's not George W. Bush". I'm sickened of voting for "the lesser of two evils". Knowing full well that we do indeed need to reform our election system, I think introducing more voting options is much more viable at this point than doing away with the electoral college. (There are a few very large states in this country who will not sit back and allow that to happen, ie. have their huge majority powers be taken away.)

I'm tired of people getting themselves into a tizzy over what they THINK Bush will do TO US once he gets in office. Is no one taking into account the fact that the House and Senate are now quite equally divided and that even if Bush does get into office he will have a very hard time accomplishing anything for the next four years? Al Gore would have an equally hard time due to the resentment of about 50% of the people in this country. The Republicans will not be in any sort of cooperative mood after having been "so close" then having it all taken away.

To the Republicans I would say: "Don't count your chickens...". To the Democrats: "What a bunch of sore losers.". The very spectacle of this entire thing tells me that there is an unbelievable amount of underlying resentment and dissatifaction in this country. I only hope that the two major parties will sit back and take good stock of all this and begin to adjust their positions to be more in favor of the people that vote them into office and away from all those big corporations who fund them.


I Live In Denmark And (sorry If This Offends You) I Think... Nov 10th. at 6:12:57 am UTC

Linda Laursen (Copenhagen, Denmark) Age: 23


I live in Denmark and (sorry if this offends you) I think the election is a bit ridicules. Last night I saw something on CNN where they were discussing what the world thinks of the US right now. One guy thought everybody was scared that the most powerful country in the world couldn't decide who is the new president. Please... if anything it's scary that the country is divided in two!!! Only half will want the president that gets elected.


I Did Vote. I Voted For Gore. Both Of Our Candidates Are... Nov 10th. at 8:10:48 am UTC

Steve Wright (Theresa, New York US) Age: 30 - Email


I did vote. I voted for Gore. Both of our candidates are cut from the same cloth, pathetic. Bush, however, has made the comment that Wicca is not a real religion and should not be supported by the military. I find that incredibly dangerous for us.


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