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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,645,984  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 153

Lurker/Post Ratio: 214 to 1

Question of the Week: 95 - 1/19/2003

How Do You Feel About War?

‘Yes I'm talking about this war dance/ A patriotic romance./And I know all you poets/Have seen it all before…’ – Colin Moulding, XTC

Colin: ‘The words were originally prompted by the Falklands War in 1982. But it was too much on one piece of history. Then along came the Persian Gulf War and I put the revised lyrics to a new piece of music. It was time to bring war out of the closet again.’


And again, it would seem. How do you, from your own spiritual perspective or tradition, view and/or cope with the ideals and realities of war and armed conflict?

Do your political leanings influence how you feel?

Do you have a difficult time explaining/defending/advocating your position to other Pagans or Heathens? Non-Pagans?

 Reponses:   There are 153 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Politics Vs. Economy Jan 21st. at 1:39:56 pm UTC

Heidi Salguero (Pottstown) Age: 27 - Email


What people fail to understand is the difference between democracy -- a political system -- and capitalism -- an economic system. Anyone who believes deeply in democracy can and should fight to uphold it -- yes, through violent means if necessary. If a people are being systematically oppressed, tortured, and murdered by their government, we have a right to intervene. Because fighting man's inhumanity to man is EVERYONE'S responsibility. What no one on CNN or the evening news seems to want to say right out loud is that this impending 'war' is purely an economical one, as was the Gulf War. The focus of this attack we are planning is oil, not human rights, and that, my friends, is ALWAYS wrong.


War Only As Ultimate Last Resort Jan 21st. at 1:46:11 pm UTC

Slaine V'algar (Austria) Age: 30 - Email


In the army, we had a saying:"War is hell, but the sound-effects are great". Sure, it's fun to watch on tele, or at the movies. Just ask the families who have been hit by bombs, or those who have lost limbs due to mines, what they think of war. I care less about the human suffering than I do about the suffering we cause our Mother Earth. How many chemicals does one bomb release into our atmosphere? How many organisms, other than human, are destoyed by a single detonation?
Sure, war on terrorism sounds great, but then fight a clean war.Stop the drug flow, this money supports terrorism. Stop armament, work toward finding a common ground. Dispose a dictator, sure, but do we need to sacrifice thousands to rid the world of one person?
Remember this: bombs do not only kill people, they destroy ecosystems that took centuries to establish themselves. This planet is all we have, and we seem to be doing our darndest to destroy her. We already have enough problems with polution, over-population etc. War just adds to the damage we cause.Everything we take from Earth, took millenia to develope, give her a chance to recover before she turns on us.
Have your war, if you feel the urge, but then invite your enemy into your own space, and have it out one-on-one. LEAVE THE REST OF US OUT OF IT!


My Ideas Have Changed Jan 21st. at 2:11:39 pm UTC

squib (oregon) Age: 33 - Email


on things since 9/11. I had family killed on flight 77. That's some of my DNA splattered on the pentagon. And they were killed because they were American, and for no other reason at all, excuses about US foreign policy be damned.

The problem here, i think, and its what a lot of people fail to see, is that the enemy is already identified, and he walks among us, protected by our laws on religion and free speech. Our enemy is not some country far away. Our enemy threatens to kill women who walk unveiled or hold government jobs (as seen recently in an area of Kashmir), our enemy would very much like to have nuclear weapons pointed at us (as recently mentioned by a Mullah Al-Khutbari), and would no doubt not hesitate to use them on us, our enemy sees us as the oppressors, while they allow their people to live in filth and squalor because it pleases their god for them to live that way. Our enemy kills people for making jokes about their god or daring to speak out against twisted leaders, stores munitions in mosques, and desecrates other faiths houses of worship. Our other enemy, the one who doesn't walk among us, houses prison camps who's size exceeds the largest Soviet gulags, with three generations of dissidents' families in them, practices forced abortion and infanticide, destroys its environment (quite willingly) through massive deforestation, starves its people, and works them to death.

The first, in case anyone is going to take me out of context, is -radical- Islamists (please note i specified "radical".) The second is North Korea.

The goal of radical Islam is worldwide Shari'a. No less. Nothing else. You will submit to allah, or you will be killed or enslaved. That's their stated goal. (see any given speech on IMRA). You simply cannot reason with someone who believes their god tells them all non-believers must be killed or forcibly converted.

The goal of N. Korea right now is extortion, pure and simple. NK has run itself into the ground. Dear Leader is unable to keep his people (the amount of immigrants from NK to China has grown substantially in the last 6 months). He's out of money. He's out of food. Who has the deepest pockets in the world? Why, the US. Figure it out.

In this case, i'm all for war. Am i positive Iraq should be the first target? No. I'm sure there are other ones far better suited. I don't believe NK should be a target, because of their present goal (free money in order to shut down their nuke program) makes them a mere annoyance rather than a valid threat- unless they get desperate enough to sell their nuke technology (or finished products) to groups like Al-Quaeda, which is a very real possibility.

To anyone who goes to peace rallies sponsored by A.N.S.W.E.R., be aware of their parent organization, the WWP (Worker's World Party). It may seem a fairly innocuous and innocent quasi-socialist group, but they support Dear Leader, they supported the Chinese government during and after Tienmen square, they defend Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam Hussein (known killer of his own people, drainer of marshes, lighter of oil fields, dumper of crude into the sea). Support peace and be an activist all you want, but denounce the WWP and ANSWER at every turn.

My position is not widely liked in the pagan community. I've been called a bigot for it. But i call it as i see it, and when a group of people wants me dead because of what religion or nationality i am or am not, well then, a bigot i am. There is no easy solution to the puzzle we now find ourselves in. Group hugs will not solve this. Dialogue will not solve this. Capitulating to demands (paying danegeld) to save our butts will not solve this. There are large groups of people who want every US and Israeli citizen dead. The war is already on.


Good God Yes! Jan 21st. at 5:21:46 pm UTC

wolfsbane (texas) Age: 43 - Email


Even as I write this I am waiting for my husband to be deployed.
With mixed emotions I send him.
If we would have finished this before in the Gulf War we would never have had a 9-11.
But the question remains, if we fight and win, the decendants of those killed will still hate America with even more vigor.
How do you stop a whole country of hate without destroying the entire population.
War is a need. It can clean as well as destroy. Terrorists must be stopped at all costs to every country.


Get Real Jan 21st. at 5:40:47 pm UTC

Skeggi (New Zealand) Age: 32 - Email


Why not kill everyone then. Its the only way to be sure.
You cant seriously think this has anything to do with the Gulf War.
How do you combine what happened on 11/9 with Iraq?
Your government has proven why people will always hate America with how they are treating the prisoners held in Cuba. Would they be abble or willing to treat your citizens that way?
So America proves once again its a case of one rule for us and another for you. Or do as i say not as i do.
Skeggi


Why Can't We Just All Get Along? Jan 21st. at 5:57:15 pm UTC

Leisaie (Michigan USA) Age: 14 - Email


I don't know about the rest of you, but my mummy taught me that we shoudl get along, that we should share, and above all she taught me that it's Not Nice to over-analyse people's weapons declarations. And really, everything we needed to know we learned in primary school--and from the Rede. I believe passionately in 'An it harm none, do as ye will'. What about the innocent civilians? What about the children and the storekeepers and the writers and the mothers? Will they all just DIE because of America's folly?
I'm a vegan, a born-two-decades-too-late hippy and a pacifist. I don't believe that there is any excuse for killing innocents, and it would take a lot to convince me otherwise.


No No Jan 21st. at 7:58:25 pm UTC

Mallory (Rhode Island) Age: 17 - Email


I think that war is not necessary. As far as I know, we don't have any real evidence that Iraq has these weapons of mass destruction.

So, why allow both our body counts as well as Iraqs go down, for something that we have no real evidence of?

Just my two cents though. :)


Ummmmmmm...... Jan 21st. at 8:51:51 pm UTC

Angie (Indiana) Age: 29 - Email


Ok. I think I've had enough. I love you all. I hold no ill will against anyone, but I am sick and tired of hearing all the America-hating. That's no more right than any of the other stuff. I hate to be harsh, but that really upsets me. I believe everyone is allowed their point of view and that diversity of opinion is a terrific thing. It makes (some of) us think. But I don't think that it is necessary at ALL to spout a bunch of "You Americans..." this and "You Americans..." that. I do not base all New Zealander's or Canadian's or anyone else based upon what their governments do or how some of their fellow countrymen feel. And I truly don't think it's fair to do that to America. That is just as wrong as the (very few that I know of) Americans who run around thinking ALL Iraqi's are like Sadaam. It's just plain wrong.
Sorry. I just felt very defensive for a moment there. I don't like to offend anyone, but I do think that we could all stand to be a bit more civil.
Blessings to all,
Angie


If Someone I Loved Was Killed... Jan 21st. at 9:15:33 pm UTC

delia (San Francisco) Age: 26 - Email


I would not feel that I had the right to kill the person that took their life. Human beings, with our fearful, beautiful, petty, glorious emotions rarely have the wisdom to decide another person's fate. I trust the universal law of threefold return to teach each person the lessons ech soul is here to learn. Someone I loved drowned in the sea. Should I then hate the ocean?

The true test of faith, I believe, is to trust that universal law even and especially when those moments of rage and fear overtake us.

The current American administrators claim to be students of that teacher of peace, Jesus, but their actions are clearly informed by fear and power. The American way of life may not be beholden to misogynistic, violent religious beliefs as fundamentalist Islamic governments are, but it is held fast to an equally dangerous ideology: absolute capitalism; profits over all else.

The American constitution is based on democracy - a government of the people - and our current practice is far removed from that ideal. As a U.S. citizen and a descendant of the original inhabitants of this land (the Ojibwa), I will not leave but will stay and dissent and organize and teach peace until I have no breath left.

Anyone who believes that the people of power in this government choose war for the sake of their constituents or for the sake of innocent people in foreign nations is living in a sad and inexcusable state of naive ignorance. You have a responsibity to educate yourself about the role the United States in the deaths of millions of innocent people in this country and around the world, and as a citizen you have a responsibity to make in this country a government that is the voice of ALL of its citizens.

I am so tired of US against THEM. We are all one.


The Media Is Amazing. Jan 21st. at 9:23:36 pm UTC

Watcher (USA) Age: 37 - Email


Many here seem to think that Sadam is responsible for 911 - in fact recent polls reveal that over 50% of those polled think the same... Amazingly THIS is not evem close to the truth but a great way to get folks angry...

most of the terroists came from Saudi Arabia.... and some from Egypt.

Sadam IS a REAL bad guy but NOT the 'master mind' behind 911. - We still haven't got those guys yet. But that 'war' has gone stale... WAR is good for the rich white men and they will find another.

These days *we* blame Sadam, the rest of the world seems to be fed more facts that we get... So if it's fox or cnn that YOU count on YOU are being dupped.

Let's go after Sadam for what HE Does... not what he didn't do, or may do someday.

the media is lock stepping with the bush agenda and has for two years now. they are doing a very good job at this spin.

what I am getting real tired of is the rhetoric... "I you don't buy the bush agenda or dare to question his 'logic' or 'intelligence' you are unpatriot or un american.." THAT is probably the most evil spin that we see these days.

the liberal media? Pahleezzz don't make us try to consume that BS line anymore.


Give Peace A Chance.... Jan 21st. at 9:31:06 pm UTC

A'Nishna (San Diego) Age: 51 - Email


NO, do not go to war. The war is going to happen because of our leadership.


Views On War And Life Jan 21st. at 9:35:55 pm UTC

moahdept (virginia) Age: 20 - Email


i believe that in life there is a balance between life and death. i have believed this my entire life. war is part of this balance. since the dawn of man we have always known conflict. we have always been knowledgeable about our own mortality. i do believe that war, in itself has become more unnatural over the years. the balance of war has shifted. wars used to be a matter of hand to hand combat and involved the loss of human life, and not so much of the life of the planet around the combatants. the weapons used today take both human life and the life of the planet. it has become dangerous to the balance of life. at this point of civilazation, in my opion, war should be avoided at all costs. the toll of war has become to high to pay. so long as humans exist in a society there will be confict. there is no way to avoid that, however, if we can learn to solve our disputes without the use of war then we and the earth would benefit.


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