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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,651,753  

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Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 74

Lurker/Post Ratio: 442 to 1

Question of the Week: 112 - 5/28/2003

Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them?

From The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:

elder : 1. an older person, especially one with a respected position in society; 2. an official of a religious group.

What is your definition of an Elder? Do we need Elders? Do we want Elders? What would be the role of an Elder in the Pagan/Heathen communities?

Who decides who is an Elder? Can someone simply declare him/herself an Elder? Do you discern a difference between ‘someone with a respected position in society’ and ‘an official of a religious group’? Can a solitary practitioner – who is not an ‘official’ of a recognized group, but nevertheless provides something of value to Paganism/Heathenism -- be considered an Elder?

Is age a factor? Wisdom? Proven track record? Who do you consider to be an Elder?

 Reponses:   There are 74 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Elder Question Jun 6th. at 1:24:45 am UTC

Chasmodai (Las Vegas) Age: 42 - Email


Yes, we need Elders. IMO their role would be to help provide the community with guidance, help keep the community functioning together and moving forward. The Elder is the community's voice of wisdom, of conscience. A sometimes mediator, sometimes teacher, sometimes leader, sometimes storyteller, always respected and usually beloved.

A person cannot simply call himself/herself an Elder. A person becomes an Elder simply by actions, by track record. A community will rely on this person in the function of an Elder, and that is how this person will be recognized as such.

I think we have to be cautious about assuming that age alone can make a person an Elder. A person with an untreated personality disorder may not learn well from his or her mistakes and may never develop good judgement. A person with strong bias or prejudice may over time become more entrenched in distorted beliefs and perceptions. Some people decide they know enough and stop learning. Some fools simply become old fools. These types of things can prevent a person from ever becoming an Elder.


Addendum, Inspired By Grey Cat Jun 6th. at 6:46:47 am UTC

Sunflower (Calgary AB) Age: 41 - Email


Grey Cat isn't wrong about there being something that happens as the days stack up.
I've been saying for years that this age/wisdom connection is that, the more time you've been around, the more -opportunity- for experience, i.e. "stuff happens to you"; the more such opportunity, the more chance that you've learned to do something with it (like learning from it, and the kind of personal development Grey Cat cites) . As a result, the older someone is in years, the better the odds that they'll have -some- wisdom about -something-.
Of course there are those who never did do anything but stack up years; we've all known them. That's the above process working v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y.
When I spoke earlier of very young elders (I'd guess most of those who mentioned this were thinking much as I was, but I can't be certain) , it was because sometimes the process goes quite quickly. I'm not any more impressed by ignorant 20-year-olds than the next midlifer, but that's no reason to dismiss those who are anything but ignorant. As I read Grey Cat's description, I thought of one "baby elder" of my acquaintance, who at 17 fits the description. I'm not saying this is common; its rarity is what makes that young lady so remarkable.

Sunflower


Knowing Where We Came Form Will Show Us Where We Are Going Jun 6th. at 3:27:02 pm UTC

Aberon the seeker (ca, usa) Age: 27 - Email


An elder has in the modern era been considered a position held by a person in a Christian institution, one that has a vast amount of knowledge of the chosen path. In more recent decades, approximately 1970 to today the Neo-Pagan movement have been more visible and open to public scrutiny. A primary problem that most movements have, whether they are modern or ancient, is the language that must be developed in order to communicate with those who are outside the movement as well as those who are inside the movement. Some words have been borrowed from the Judaio-Christian Lexicon, such as Sabbath or more commonly seen as Sabbat. Other words that Christians considered Christian, but truly remain neutral; Liturgy, from the Latin word Liturgia ( a derivative of a Greek word) that means public works - such as a bible or manuscript. Some words we have invented, like Esbat, I believe Doreen Valiente coined the term. This is where the understanding of elder comes into play. Do we as a community of Neo-Pagans use the term Elder, or do we choose another term. Do we ignore the modern-day-interpretation of the term and not mistake the vehicle for the tenor? I feel that we are able to utilize this phrase with all of its great meaning; one that is of a respected nature in the community, who passes down knowledge, not law. An Elder is a person who is not necessarily older than you in birth years, but one who teaches the whole community with great wisdom and skill. With this I feel that we are able to use the term Elder.
Needing elders is definitely a personal decision at the micro-level of being, but in the macrocosm of our Neo-Pagan community I think that Elders are needed. Our community as a whole is in desperate need of people who have been around for a while and have spent a great deal of time to the understanding of our nature and disposition as a community. We also need those who have a greater understanding of what it is to be a Neo-Pagan, the ethics and morality of practice, as well as a sound common sense of our needs as a community. As a community we need a variety of things, I feel some of them are in education both to those young people who choose to enter our community in their teen-aged years as well as a bridge of communication to those who misunderstand our community (a dialogue if you will, complete with a vocabulary that will create a common ground for conversation between ourselves and others) . Next, we need inform our newcomers of our history. It is not a fact that we have any, if at all direct links to traditions that have been passed down since the time before written accounts of our rites existed. Wicca is a new religion, more of a reconstructive religion than it is a path that has always been. Yes it taps into ancient knowledge and uses techniques form ancient religions, but it is not ancient in and of itself. Understanding and education of the Ethical and Moral implications behind spell-work is also a very well deserved and needed material for our community. These are only a few of examples of the many things that our community needs. These are the things that our chosen Elders should be able to impart.
Wanting Elders is definitely a personal decision that only 'you' may answer for yourself.
Each community should decide who their Elders are, for instance, the N.R.O.O.G.D. community ( one of the oldest traditions in the United States today) have what are called Red Cords. These are their Elders, unfortunately they sometimes make a person a Red Cord when they are not ready as an individual to become one. I am in Southern California and met a Red Cord in that particular tradition, she was not ready in my opinion for a few reasons. She was rather self centered in the aspect of her importance above other people (we are all equal, she acted as if she disagreed) , she often used her 'Red Cord' status as a levy against other people in discussions, she was also not apt at teaching people a technique with the understanding that the methods are open to interpretation. Regardless of her poor behavior, the local communities should decide who their Elders are. Once I read that an Elder is considered a person who has been practicing the 'Craft' for ten or more years. If that was the case I would be an Elder of more then two years now - I don't think that is a substantial enough reason.
I do feel that a solitary practitioner is quite capably of being an Elder - look at the mythos of Merlin, he was a solitary Druid (seeing that many Druids were not mentioned in eth Christianized version of the legends) and he was quite the Elder to the boy king Arthur. If a solitary fractioned has a set of valuable skills and sufficient knowledge (book, practical, and wisdom) yes, they may be the Elder of a community. Sometimes, a solitary is all we have.
Age is not a factor, to a small degree - I feel that Wisdom and a 'proven track record' help with matters... I consider NovaMoondancer, EmeraldEyes and Samwise (peace be with the departed) all Elders. Nova belongs to a tradition, the latter do not, in fact Samwise wasn't even Neo-Pagan, but quite understanding of them.

Merry Meet, Merry Part, and Merry Meet Again
Aberon the seeker.

see the link for NROOGD Link to More info related to this post -- HERE


The Need For Elders Jun 6th. at 5:18:56 pm UTC

Angela Patterson (Pheonix, Arizona) Age: 26 - Email


The need for Elders is still alive and well. I am a young woman of minimal knowledge. Without the Elders greater wisdom those such as myself would wither away.
I believe that an Elder is one who needs no social standing or leads any religious group. In fact to me an Elder is an older, wiser person who strives to pass on their great knowledge. I think of myself as a solitary practioner but I have Elders that guide and encourage me. I give them the respect of the title Elder because they offer their time to teach myself and my sister much of their vast knowledge. I believe Elders are different people to us all. Most of those that I would consider Elders would not in fact consider themselves as such.
We need them as much as we need each other. Without the older, wiser ones we would be lost; without the guidance that started us all on this path. Elders are part of pagan, wiccan, heathen tradition. I know that were it not for those that I consider Elders I would not be the peaceful woman on a marvelous path through life that I am.


Age/Wisdom/Knowlege Jun 6th. at 8:44:55 pm UTC

Penny J. Novack (Berkshire Mntns, MA, USA) Age: -62 - Email


Is an Elder someone who KNOWS?
Is an Elder someone who has EXPERIENCE?
Is an Elder someone of compassion who is COMPETENT?
Is an Elder someone who TEACHES?
Is an Elder someone who has an Old Wisdom?
Is an Elder a HEALER?
Is an Elder anyone you feel respect for?
Does age itself mean anything in the context of the term Elder?

This is a matter, it seems, of personal definitions.

I will always believe all beings are capable of teaching me if I am ready to learn from them. I am always grateful for kindness and generosity of spirit. I will always admire the knowlege of those who have struggled to attain mastery.

But to me, Elders will always be at least a little wrinkled and perhaps have at least a bit of grey in their hair. My own personal "take".


Continuity Jun 7th. at 2:27:12 am UTC

Mark Martin (Port Orchard, WA) Age: 41 - Email


A simple word -- Continuity.

I have seen it fail in business department and seen a that business scramble trying to reinvent and redevelop the attitudes, ethics and simple "knowing" that is involved in handing down information from a previous generation to a new one. What is written is a guide and is raw information. That can "help" but information without context leads to confusion and misinterpretation/misapplication of that information.

That is the purpose of Elders. To help provide the "knowing" of what was and understanding of how it applies to what is. What will be is something the they may choose to look at and participate in the construction of but that is usually the province of the younger generations to build because the younger ones first must LEARN what came before and get the "why" of it answered. Not just the "what" but that ugly "why" question...

Value? So massive that it cannot be expressed with any ease.


Elders Yes And No Jun 7th. at 7:29:32 am UTC

Dave (Pa.) Age: 51 - Email


I look at the word Elders from two different ways. The ones who destroy and the ones with great teachings within.The White Man ways for which I am, taught me the path for which I don't want to be.The path of disrespect for that of our land, air and that of our water.
I feel I was born with the heart of an elder and many of the older people around me seen and felt that energy within me. To me an Elder is one that shows love and respect for all things on Earth.It takes a great heart to love all and only the heart of a true Elder can have that much respect.I feel age has no bearing on this matter.
I seen myself on the Angelic Planet before the Earth was even born.Many old souls are on this planet at this point and time to help bring forth change.Are they the real Elders on this Earth? I learned nothing but greed and hate from my father.
I feel everything comes from the heart or Spirit Self and the child within that heart is the ture teaching of an Elder.Older people can teach us much, but it is what they teach that makes one an Elder and only a small percentages of humans will ever learn the ways of a true Elder.
Love and Blessing to All
Golden Eagle


They Said So! Jun 7th. at 6:05:49 pm UTC

Uhuro alias Klaus Lundberg (Denmark) Age: 40 - Email


So who´s an elder, and do we need them? Well in my opinion, all societyes, famillies, groups of people needs and bennefits from elders. As people we need somebody once in a while, to show us how its done, and lead us along the way. This is the natural role of the elder. Now because of this I don´t Think - being an elder is something you proclaim yourself yoo be, it´s rather something you become, then people says so. So then they begin to come running for advice, then they come to you, because, they need your experience, and don´t know that else to do - then just maybe you are an elder. But you got to stay around and be patient, your time may come. - Bee Blessed with love from UHURO


Elders Jun 8th. at 12:12:57 am UTC

Carl (S.D Ca.) Age: 26 - Email


Elders are those whom you can turn to for answers to those questions that you yourself can not find the answers to. they are those who know more than you on the specific topic you are struggling on and those who have no problem in helping you on your way. That is my definition of an elder. An elder in my opinion does not flaunt themselves as such for recognition of how many years they have been in practice or how much they know. Half of all those i have met saying the are elders have paned out to be not so elder, so in this i say if you know more than me and are willing to teach me then you are worthy of the title.
If not for my Navy buddy Dan I would be completly lost, though he does know alot he never figures himself even above me. Consitering he has been in practice for over 15 years and I only a mere 2 or so.
He is always there to help no matter what he is doing and that to me is an ELDER...
To represent, CPL HALLER/ USMC.....


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