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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 25,801,935  

Vox Q Stats

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Question of the Week: 12 - 10/23/2000

Pagan Choice for the y2k US Election

This week's Pagan Perspective question is a redux of one that we asked about at the beginning of August... And we apologize in advance to our non-United States readers that we have again brought up an issue that is rather exclusive to just one country, but feel free to comment on the shenanigans of the American political system as you see it.) Which political platform or candidate are you leaning towards? Have you made up your mind or changed your mind? Will you vote and who-if you don't mind telling the world-are you planning to vote for? Why have you made this particular choice?

 Reponses:   There are 129 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

When This Was First Posted Back In August, I Mentioned That I... Oct 25th. at 3:12:17 am EDT

Gwydion Canu Bleidd (Memphis, Tennessee US) Age: 32 - Email

When this was first posted back in August, I mentioned that I was thinking of casting a vote for Nader--Jesus God, what the hell was I thinking?? Since then, it has become abundantly clear to me (and hopefully, to any right-thinking American) that the only choice for President is the always-wooden Al Gore. If Bush gets elected, it'll be "Jesus Day" every day and we will see all sorts of social progress rolled back a full century or more in this country...and I will seriously have to consider moving to Ireland and starting a Pagan commune in Co. Galway. (Note to Bev Richardson, if he sees this: Think you might have room at Castle Pook for an American witch seeking asylum from this country's descent into political stupidity?)
Ralph Nader is not now, nor ever will be, the man for the job of leader of the free world...Pat Buchanan is a menace to sobriety (and his choice of Ezola Foster for VP no more than pandering to women and minorities)...and Bush almost makes Dan Quayle look smart, which is REALLY scary when you sit down and think about it. Seriously, folks: "Is our children learning?" and "It's put food on your family" among other gaffes... Do we really want this idiot running our country? I think we all know the answer.

Thank You, Nelli From Carmel, Ca. I Couldn't Agree More. I Want... Oct 25th. at 7:37:18 am EDT

Raven (Johannesburg, South Africa) Age: 52 - Email

Thank you, Nelli from Carmel, CA. I couldn't agree more. I want to reiterate for all of you who are "voting or {NOT} voting your conscience". A VOTE FOR NADER IS A VOTE FOR BUSH. NOT VOTING FOR GORE IS A VOTE FOR BUSH. Are you people prepared to live under the "far-right religious zealot conservatives " for the next four to eight years?

How many of you have 14-year-old sons? How many have sons who may be drafted by a war that the Bush/Cheney ticket will bring?

Go read history and check out just who the President was during the Gulf War (he didn't 'inherit' that war), and what role Mr. Cheney played in it!!!!!!
I like a lot of things the Libertarian Party says, but once again, these are CRITICAL TIMES, and a vote for a Libertarian candidate is a vote for Bush.

Nader has some good ideas BUT the man has stepped over into the realm of ALL CONSUMING HUBRIS!!! He has become consumed with himself, and I am really angry with him for putting this election into jeopardy and being a key element in a possible win for Bush. He will "hear" from me if Bush wins! Just by the very fact that he is willing to
‘throw’ this election, he has lost all credibility for me.

A few weeks ago, another question was posited for us regarding the ethics of magick. I was really happy to see that because I am always curious to see how others view this conundrum. It is interesting to see how the range of answers varies as much as the ages of the participants answering the question. Often times we older Witches have lived long enough to see that what goes around truly does come around.

There have been times in the course of human events when Witches have come together to 'correct' or 'adjust' matters that have gone horribly awry. One such that comes quickly to my mind is when the Witches gathered to repel Hitler from crossing the English Channel. I, myself, felt that Newt Gringrich and Kenneth Starr needed to be 'dealt' with, and I felt justified in doing what needed to be done to keep them from harming others and my country. If Bush gets elected, I will not hesitate to do the same if I see he is going to try to send my son to war or abolish my right to worship as I please, or purports any other nefarious act. It isn't something I would like to do, but I will. BTW, you don't necessarily have to harm someone to get them out of the way or keep them from harming others. How many of you hasn’t gotten someone 'promoted' just to get them away from you? Hmmm? The gods/goddesses give us life and it is up to us to preserve that life and defend it, period. If the Bush/Cheney ticket wins, Witches, Pagans, et al are going to have their 'cauldrons full' for the next 4-8 years.

Remember: NOT VOTING is a vote for Bush.
VOTING FOR NADER or anyone else is a vote for Bush.
Hope you can "live" with your conscience . . .What goes around, comes around…

I, Too, Have Already Posted Once To This Forum. I, Too, Am... Oct 25th. at 9:40:39 am EDT

NatalieWitch (Corydon, Indiana US) Age: 21 - Email

I, too, have already posted once to this forum. I, too, am having misgivings about posting again.

Too many times today I have read the "A Vote for Nader is a Vote for Bush" party line, and I am fed up with it. Hear me no for the last time: A VOTE FOR NADER ONLY GOING TO TAKE AWAY A VOTE FROM GORE IN AN UNDECIDED OR DEMOCRATIC STATE.

If you live in NH, PA, WV, FL, TN, MI, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, NM, WA, OR, or a traditionally Democratic state PLEASE DO VOTE FOR GORE. None of us want to see shubba-u win this election. However, for those of you that live in traditionally Republican states (for example, IN, TX, & UT) should feel free to vote for the candidate of your choice, even if that candidate is --gasp-- Ralph Nader!

Don't let these blowhards scare you off. In a Republican state your electorial votes are going to go to Bush. But your vote for Nader can make a difference in 2004. Wouldn't you like to see a third party come into play in the next election? Wouldn't you like to have that third party support your basic Pagan beliefs?

Say it with me. "Ralph Nader is a viable option. A vote for Ralph Nader is a vote for Ralph Nader".

I Think That Is So Important That All Pagans Get Out And... Oct 25th. at 11:26:44 am EDT

Autumn (Dothan, Alabama US) Age: 27

I think that is so important that all pagans get out and vote in this election. I have heard some say the will not vote at all since they don't really like Gore that much, and that Nader doesn't have a chance. We all have to work together to keep Bush out of office! I shudder to think what this country will be like if that man becomes president. Living on the buckle of the bible belt is bad enough, but that belt might well grow to cover the whole country if Bush is elected. If Bush becomes president, and gets to elect three supreme court justices, we might loose or right to choose not only what we do with our bodies, but the religion we practice. He might have the decision to protect Wicca as a religion overturned. Then what? The burning times again? Think about it. Do whatever you can. Talk to people, spread the word. We ALL need to vote for Gore to keep Bush from taking away everything we hold dear. What planet are we going to live on if Bush is allowed to destroy this one?

Greetings, Kindly Note: Feel Free To Attack The Issues At Hand But... Oct 25th. at 4:30:34 pm EDT

Fritz Jung (Clearwater, Florida US) Age: 47 - Email


Kindly Note: Feel free to attack the issues at hand but try not to loose sight of the actual question presented at the top of this page.

Posts that contain personal attacks (and related threads that follow) will be removed and are not welcome here.

Blessed Be Well,

A Vote For Nader Is Not A Vote For Gore, It Is... Oct 25th. at 4:33:55 pm EDT

Wendy (Nyack, New York US) Age: 50

A vote for Nader is NOT a vote for Gore, it is a vote for Nader, the Greens, for YOUR/OUR future. Surely people cannot be this narrow minded and without the vision necessary to see this? Vote for the person who has worked tirelessly his entire adult life for you and me. Why on earth would anyone waste their vote on a politician who only speaks what they think we want to hear? We must think beyond the next four years.

To quote a Kenyan proverb: This earth was not left to us by our was loaned to us by our children.

The republicrats are bought, paid for, and owned by corporations.

Vote Green for the future we want.

There Are No “safe States” To Vote For Anyone Except Gore. After... Oct 25th. at 4:40:56 pm EDT

John (Colorado Springs, Colorado US) Age: 33 - Email

There are no “safe states” to vote for anyone except Gore.

After reading the news today, I have to post again to this board.

In today’s Rocky Mountain News (one of two major newspapers here in Colorado; 25 October 2000,, the following was reported (I’m accurately paraphrasing):

* * *
California (with 54 electoral votes !!!) was considered a “safe state” for Gore to win. Hence, supporters of Nader and other third party candidates were encouraged to vote for their candidates. It was assumed that such wouldn’t hurt Gore and wouldn’t help Bush.

NOW (**today**… 25 October 2000) it seems that BUSH is within FIVE PERCENT of capturing the popular vote in California. And, of course, if a candidate gets even a *slight* majority in the popular vote, he will get **ALL** of that state’s electoral votes. (And, as another poster ably explained, it’s electoral votes, not popular votes, than elects U.S. presidents.) In California, there are FIFTY-FOUR electoral votes … and Bush is (as of today) within 5% of the popular vote in getting ALL fifty-four electoral votes. And California was a “safe state” for supporters of third party candidates to vote for their guy.

And, for opposite reasons (a reported 10% lead in the polls by Bush), Colorado is also being considered a “safe state” for supporters of third party candidates to vote for their guys instead of for Gore.
* * **

Colorado is leaning for Bush by 10%? Sure, I can see El Paso County, Colorado going that way, but Denver? *Boulder?* Hello, all you ultimate-playing, Nader-supporting voters: it’s time to get busy! There’s no “safety” with Bush winning … even in a supposedly “safe state.”

And California’s popular vote is within 5% of going for Bush? 54 electoral votes might go to Bush because it is a “safe” place to vote for a third party candidate? HELLO !

Please, there are NO “safe states” in this election. YOU can decide this election. State by state, your vote could tip the balance of the popular vote (which is dead-even nationwide). Thus, YOUR VOTE could give all of your state’s electoral votes … to a man who thinks Witchcraft is not a religion or to a man (Gore) who believes in the freedom of religion without exception.

I know, I know: many of you who support third party candidates (such as Nader) want to vote for your principles.

Consider: if Bush is elected, the principle of religious freedom would be at risk. As the “Web White and Blue” statement by Bush of 15 October 2000 clearly stated: he does not consider Witchcraft to be a religion, and he strongly seemed to imply that members of the military who are Witches should not be permitted to practice their religion.

Excuse me? This is coming from a candidate for Commander-in-Chief of the men and women who actually have to fight and sometimes *die* for freedom (including freedom of religion). This is also coming from the man who, if elected president, would nominate 2 – 4 judges to sit on the Supreme Court and make a new majority for 10? 20? years.

If you were Jewish …a religion which has had more than its share of martyrs for refusing to accept You-Know-Who as their “personal lord and savior” … and if one of the two viable candidates for president said, “I don’t think Judaism is a religion, ” would you vote for that man? Would you vote for that man IN EFFECT by voting for someone who cannot win … and thereby depriving a vote from someone who *does* believe in the freedom of religion without exception and who could actually win (and thus stop the other guy)?

I’m sorry to burst anyone’s bubble, but politics really is a practical matter, and it boils down to who wins.

Pagans: religious freedom is at stake. Maybe Bush didn’t mean that by what he said… but that is what is saying means. Erode liberty for one group, even make political attempts to do so, and there is a VERY dangerous precedent to do so against anyone or everyone else. And to those who might say, “it can’t happen here” … … consider in the U.S. the history of the American Indians, the Blacks, the Mormons when they first arose, etc.; consider the history of Europe in the 20th century. Heck, consider the fact that most of us or our ancestors came here precisely because the people “back home” didn’t think their religion was a religion. “It” (persecution) can happen “here” -- the “here” is any place (even advanced societies) when good people refuse to oppose in a VIABLE WAY those who would persecute or open the door (even just a crack) to persecution.

I don’t care which state you are in…YOUR VOTE MATTERS. This race is between Al Gore and George W. Bush, and it is a **statistical dead-heat.** As today’s news about California shows, it’s a toss-up everywhere. Thus, a very small number of people will –state by state-- decide this election by tipping the popular vote by a hair. There are NO SAFE STATES to vote for a third party candidate.

If you vote for your narrow principles (for your third party candidate), you **shall** help Bush win. And if Bush wins, the resulting, very real potential for erosion of religious freedom (first for Witches and then for who else?), will be *your* fault to a significant degree.

But, if you vote for your broad principles (like, the principle of **freedom of religion**) --by voting for Gore-- YOU really could stop Bush by getting Gore elected. And thus YOU would have *significantly* helped preserve the freedom of religion for all and preserving freedom in general.

“Never Again the Burning Times” … that actually means something, and (like it or not) in the U.S. right now, it means voting for Gore.


Hi, I Haven't Read All The Posts On This, So I Hope... Oct 25th. at 4:46:27 pm EDT

Lilac (Grosse Pointe Park, Michigan US) Age: 34 - Email

Hi, I haven't read all the posts on this, so I hope I'm not repeating too much. I wanted to address the issue of people trying to manipulate the system through strategic voting. IMO the only way to bring lasting, long-term change is by everybody voting their concience every time. yes, it may result in Bush gaining office, even in some negative policy for us pagans (et al). but as i see it, if we build a climate of voting in the way that our democratic systems was built for us to vote, it will gradually free others to vote their concience, too, and at some far future date, american politics can be closer to our idealized view of it...

i feel VERY strongly that I don't want Bush in office, and was an "anybody but bush" voter not long ago. however, i realized that is (again IMO) a selfish, short-sighted way to vote. I decided to speak out for what I believe is right not only for myself and my fellow pagans, but to cast my vote in a way that hopefully will be beneficial in some small way to future pagans, and others.

Correction: See And Not My Apologies... Oct 25th. at 5:14:05 pm EDT

john (Colorado Springs, Colorado US) Age: 33 - Email


see and not my apologies.

Gretings All! Well, I Just Turned 18 Last Month. I've Been Following... Oct 25th. at 5:17:23 pm EDT

Sara Elizabeth (Chester, Vermont US) Age: 18

Gretings All!

Well, I just turned 18 last month. I've been following the race very closely; and I still don't understand all
of it... But for sure, I understand this much: I'm voting for GORE! Bush's oppinion of our RELIGION terrifies me! To put it mildly, I rather not have someone so close minded in the white house! I'm Wiccan, I'm voting, and I'm voting for Gore.

Blessed Be!

One Of My Favorite Authors Says That You May Not Be Able... Oct 25th. at 6:35:41 pm EDT

j. thayer (kent, Washington US) Age: 52 - Email

One of my favorite authors says that you may not be able to decide who to vote for but you can always figure out who to vote against. IN this election it is BUSH! His idea of american freedom is for himself and like minded people only. He has no real plan except to get himself elected avenge his father's defeat at the hands of Bill Clinton.What he would do to the Supreme Court alone scares me.We could survive the rest but our children and grandchildren will have to live with what the Supreme Court does in the next few years. I like a lot of Nader's environmental and business thoughts but that is not what you do in the oval office. It would be much better to get Green party members into local offices where they can have a more direct effect on government. Nader in the white house would be subscribing to a theory of tricle-down environmentalism that will wither on the vine and never come to full fruit in this country. Electing Nader may be the Green party setback that will take decades to reverse.

After Visiting The Red, White And Blue Page And Seen Both Major... Oct 25th. at 7:38:40 pm EDT

Natalie Williams (Cedar City, Utah US) Age: 21 - Email

After visiting the Red, White and Blue page and seen both major candidates response to the question about religion, specifically asking about Wicca, I am casting my vote for Al Gore. George Bush said that "witchcraft is not a religion" and that makes me furious! Putting down other people's beliefs and calling names is not something I find befitting of a would-be president.

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