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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,019,733  

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Question of the Week: 59 - 9/11/2001

911 America: Talking Through The Terror...

Talking Through The Terror... And helping each other cope with the tragedies that struck at the very heart of the United States. The Witches Voice has opened up this forum in order that Pagans may express their thoughts on the terrorist attacks that took place in NYC and DC on September 11th. As the full realization of what happened and the toll numbers begin to come in, Americans have many challenges ahead.

What are your thoughts on these incidents? How are you feeling? Feel free to post any magickal workings or other support gatherings planned in your area.

WebNote 9/16/2001: Since we launched this on 911 this forum as become laced with powerful inspiration and critical information, feel free to use the search functions on your left to better define the info you are looking for. Search for your area, famous Pagans, key words etc. Also check Wren's Nest News for the latest news related to our community.

 Reponses:   There are 969 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

I Find Myself Struggling With My Faith In The God And Goddess... Sep 14th. at 1:53:27 pm EDT

Vivienne (Arlington, Virginia US) Age: 26

I find myself struggling with my faith in the God and Goddess as I try to make sense of this tragedy. It is so hard to continue to surrender to the Unknown as I constantly remind myself that we can not know the purpose that this incident has for the universe. I pray for faith, strength, compassion, and the willingness to surrender to the will of the Divine. I am humbled in the presence of such raw force. I pray for all of us touched by this tragedy, whether friend or foe, that we may use this as an opportunity for great spiritual growth.

Hail An Well Meet It Me Again Ravenhair To All Of The... Sep 14th. at 1:59:37 pm EDT

RavenHair (Philadelphie, Pennsylvania US) Age: 31 - Email

Hail an well meet it me again RavenHair

to all of the email from all the clans thank you.

And now for my repaly, I and my clan is still doing the 9 nigths of Odin sheild.

We are at day two of our work and our half month is in Cen the rune of helping light the light of the path. So you if you want to send energy to our sheild feel free.

And my clan well send energy to who ever need it in good magic you know how to find my just look for the raven. 9:00 is my clan magic time. And also Roberson and Falwell have on power our us.

They are just scared that there sheep are waking up and the GODDESS has come at last.

Stay strong and proud keep up the good work cause you are my Heros Hail Odin

I Know Most Of You May Have Seen This Already, But I... Sep 14th. at 2:10:32 pm EDT

Seldanna (Norwood (outside Boston), Massachusetts US) Age: 25 - Email

I know most of you may have seen this already, but I think it is something very special that was written. I believe it was from an earlier war (Vietnam or one of those) but I think it still pertains today. Warning: It is quite long.
Let's everyone keep praying and sending positive energy to those families, not just in NYC but all over the world.
Bright Blessing and Blessed Be!

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television Commentator, gave widespread but only partial news coverage recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get
Automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon Đ not
once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!! This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am
just a single American that has read this, TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES.

Pagan Parents Loss & Bereavement Site Can Be Found At Sep 14th. at 2:14:53 pm EDT

Destinova (Austin, Texas US) Age: 44 - Email

Pagan Parents Loss & Bereavement site can be found at Although the site was founded primarily for Pagan parents who've lost a child it has much good info for pagans dealing with the loss of loved ones. Please visit us.


Dear Mr. Bin Ladenthrough This Letter It Is My Firm Intention... Sep 14th. at 2:16:27 pm EDT

Noga Lubicz (Rio de Janeiro - Brazil 22450-130, Belize) Age: 49 - Email

Dear Mr. Bin Laden
Through this letter it is my firm intention to send you lots of love and light, which I believe you are in desperate need of. To my deepest shame, you are human like me, therefore you are my brother and I must take care of you.
Mr. Bin Laden, you are a privileged being. You were born free, rich, beautiful and intelligent. Most people in our world struggle all their lives to get these qualities, and only a few succeed. I don't know what went wrong with you. Maybe you did not get enough love at childhood. Now look what you have done: looking for love all you've got was hatred and contempt; not from a single beautiful woman, who refused to get laid with you, but from billions of people all over the world. A huge black cloud of hatred floats over your head.
Brother Bin Laden, you are doomed. Not a soul in this planet will give you shelter. Heaven will not receive you, for you despised your brilliant destiny; hell won't get you either, since you humiliated the devil himself with the perfect evil of your actions. It is time to sit down and write your will. Maybe you will get back to your senses and leave your fortune for the children in Afghanistan, so they will have some opportunity to grow up as healthy adults and share a world that will be much better than today, once you are gone.
Mr. Bin Laden, perhaps you want to avoid a darker end, surrendering to an International Court. You will have a fair judgement and will be condemned, yet this is your better choice, far better than getting lost in the void between worlds. Think about it, and consider this offer.
Once again I send you lots of love and light.
Noga Lubicz

Phoenix Metropolitan Areatwo Circles Planned For National Day Of Prayer And... Sep 14th. at 2:18:16 pm EDT

Emaara Blue (Phoenix) Age: 28 - Email

Phoenix Metropolitan Area

Two Circles Planned for National Day of Prayer and Mourning:

Los Olivos Park
28th St just North of Indian School Rd

12:30 PM and 6:00 PM

Pagans of all paths are welcome to come, share thoughts and prayers, wisdom and fellowship.

This Disaster Was The Act Of Mad Men, It Is Horrible And... Sep 14th. at 2:21:40 pm EDT

Brian Leach (new brunswick, New Jersey US) Age: 18 - Email

This disaster was the act of mad men, it is horrible and senseless. But let us not forget that the mad men are amongst us as well, US imperialism has been slaughtering innocents around the world for over 30 years. Do not take the easy route into Flag waving Nationalism, shift your paradigm and realize that there is blood on american hands as well. No senseless retaliatory violence. No "collatoral damage" is acceptable. No more innocents should die. Let us Honor our dead through PEACE rather than further violence. Let us reshape our society, and our foriegn policy into one that does not create monsters on either side. Love HUMANITY, not america.

I'd Like To Thank Heather From Montreal For Her Moving Post.and... Sep 14th. at 2:27:24 pm EDT

RuneWolf (Reston, Virginia US) Age: 43 - Email

I'd like to thank Heather from Montreal for her moving post.

And I, for one, would like to say THANK YOU! to all Canadians. Not only has there been an outpouring of support from the North, but I don't recall anyone thanking Canada specifically for sticking her neck out to help us. When this was all unfolding, Canada accepted those inbound foreign flights that were rerouted to her airports. In light of what was happening, Canada had no idea what might be coming her way; she might well have been subjected to attack herself, but she didn't say "No."

Thank you again, Canada.

In Honor Of Those Who Suffered And Died On September 11th, 2001... Sep 14th. at 2:29:23 pm EDT

Steven Day (gloucester, Massachusetts US) Age: 34 - Email

In honor of those who suffered and died on September 11th, 2001.

Today I Walked....

Along the coastline of the land where I was born. Seagulls play along the water, the waves crash rhythmically into the beach. I gaze upon the water, the sky, the rocks, and all that has been given to us...

Today I Stood....

Upon an ancient battleground, where our ancestors fought for their freedom. Cannons lay atop their rocky mounts, a now silent reminder of what we must do to protect ourselves and our freedom...

Today I Prayed....

That the Goddess will bless, and the God will protect the individuals - Our friends, our families, our loved ones - that must now go to fight to again protect what belongs to us: Our freedom. That they will return to us safe, and victorious.

Today I Wept....

Because there was no other choice.

Blessed Be.

I'm Personally Appalled By The Backlash That All Arab People Are To... Sep 14th. at 2:43:40 pm EDT

Johna Delano (Springvale, Maine US) Age: 35 - Email

I'm personally appalled by the backlash that ALL Arab people are to blame.Many people of Mid-east descent are born Americans.Religious persecution while being an old problem never ceases to amaze me for coming up with new ways to show hatred and contempt instead of the love, acceptance &inner peace that their saints, martyrs and other personages started off teaching.I'm praying for protection of the children of all those who ARE responsible for this act of hatred, that they will not blame the world for what happens to their parents and reject the natural impulse for revenge when they are of age.This is a circle that NEEDS to be broken!! LET THE HEALING BEGIN is my way to get through this for now.

Bright Blessings,
Johna M. Delano
a.k.a Red Dove

To Whom It May Concern In All Outlets Of Media And Government... Sep 14th. at 2:46:56 pm EDT

Shawn "Sazyanti" Gore (Loveland, Colorado US) Age: 24

To whom it may concern in all outlets of media and Government offices;

As a concerned and saddened citizen of the United States of America, I am just as appalled and hurt by the recent events that have taken place in New York City and around the world. However I have found that in the wake of all this tragedy and during our greatest hour of healing that I have never been more insulted and outraged in my whole life. Over the past week I have watched as every media source and government officer that has spoken, including the president himself, have openly preached the Christian faith. I have not once heard an acknowledgment for those of alternative faiths.

Today we are holding a "National Prayer and Remembrance Day" and I will be giving my thoughts and prayers for those who have lost and to those who are helping the cleanup effort just like everyone else will. However I will not be doing it in a church or temple. I am a pagan and will give my prayers in my own way.

I feel that by focusing so much on the Christian faiths that the president himself is declaring that the United States of America is a Christian country and that just is not so. I realize that alternative faiths do make up a small part of America but we are still Americans and deserve the same recognition as anyone else.

I also realize that this is a small complaint and issue in comparison to the hate crimes against Muslims in our country right now, but never the less I believe that the media and the government of our country should apologize and recognize that we may all be Americans but we are not all Christian.

Thank you

From Karrie9, Wisconsin, Usa,certain Things, Such As Attacking Civilians And Running... Sep 14th. at 3:00:57 pm EDT

Karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin US) Age: 40 - Email

From Karrie9, Wisconsin, USA,

Certain things, such as attacking civilians and running, are always wrong. If I allow harm to be done, by way of passivity or lack of appropriate action -- then I am not observing harm none, now am I? Allowing harm, by way of fear of action, is just as grevious as direct attack -- thousands and millions can die. If someone were to kill one of your children, would you let them run free, knowing they have a history of repeatedly returning to kill and run (terrorism) -- passively allowing them to strike again? It is true, we must learn the truth before we can ascertain, in any way, what is appropriate now. Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan, those in Pakistan and others involved (financial backing) must be stopped, thwarted, or worked with. The fact is, they will not stop until they are dead. This does not mean I will hate all Arabs or people who may even look like Arabs. My ex-fiance wore a turban (Sikh). He was yelled at by ingorant hateful people who didn't even realize he was of a different religion and from a different country (Punjab, India) than the militant extremist Arab muslims (and I do make that distinction) involved. It's true -- most Americans are not aware of all that our government did overseas and does. There are reasons for the Arab Hate Machine. But our actions were not the only fuel for the Arab Hate Machine. Our actions pale beside the real roots of the Arab Hate Machine. They just have a very emotionally depressed, disturbed, angry, fearful, and hateful culture. I have seen estimates that 95% of Afghanistani women are severely depressed, just as an example. Many of us know about the female mutilation suffered by some Arab women in different Arab Muslim countries -- just another piece of the puzzle. Afghanistan is is the country in which they will not allow their women and girls to go to school. Their thumbs are cut off for the offence of wearing nail polish. They kill their own wives, mothers, sisters, etc. Honor killings continue in Pakistan. What happens when you deprive the young of a whole mother that is capable of nurturing? Anyone remember the monkey studies in which they took the mothers away? The offspring were disturbed for life. This is the kind of environment that is giving rise to men like Atta (terrorist) and Osam Bin Ladin. Their religion (not the Muslim religion in general, but as it is practiced by the hateful ones -- I do make that distinction) only adds to the fuel of disturbance. We are only the excuse -- the scapegoat in the end of the whole engine of hate. Afhanistan and other Arab cultures, are at war with their own women and themselves. Indeed, Afghanistan is at civil war -- those explosions that we were first suspected of causing, in way of retaliation, had been going on and will go on as part of their own civil war. It is a culture of extreme hideous fear, hate, anger and fear. Osama Bin Laden and his followers are using these dark spectors as the vehicle of this hate machine -- a holy war. Of course all that hate and anger may be "righteously" targeted at a target. America is that target, and a religious war is the political vehicle -- oh shock, like that hasn't happened in history before. Only their method of war is different. There are two sides to every story. Yes, America has made mistakes. But you know what? Still, there was no excuse for this type of attack. I don't bath in hate, anger and revenge. If we do, on a national level, then we are our own next wave of attack on ourselves!!! No. I just want protective (war) and proactive measures to be taken in a timely and appropriate manner. I don't waste my precious energy on hate. Our resources will be strained enough, on this war on Terrorism!! I will support my country in any war effort. I will support any appropriate proactive measures. Proactive. This is just the beginning. There will be more terrorism. This is a different kind of war and much of it is new to all and old to some. New possibilities of warfare and terrorism (plastic composit weapons) appear as fast as technology advances, and it is hard to keep up with all that terrorists can do. They attack and run, attack and run. They willingly die for their cause, with many more in line -- eager to take their place. These people have declared a holy war against us -- making absolutely no differentiation between civilians and military. They do not know the real enemy. It is themselves. They harbor all that hate, anger, resentment and more. Let's not be like them. Let us not be our own next wave. United we stand, devided we fall.

Okay, Okay, it's true that Osama Bin Laden is from Bedouin stock -- and that they interbreed with their own close relatives -- commonly and on purpose. But that is of little issue here! Yes, we should kill the rabid dogs (terrorists) to rid the world of this disease. By the way, Mr. Laden is not a religiously learned man! He is clearly breaking major portions of the Koran that only a very imbalanced man of great political motivation, ego, and hate could even pretend to ignore. One of the portions of the Koran that clearly states what Mr. Laden did is indeed against God/Allah/the Creator -- well, that is being heard in the memorial service President Bush now sits in. But the point here was not to do it (wiping out terrorism) out of anger, although anger undoubtedly exists. The point was to accomplish the obliteration of this self-appointed enemy. Not out of anger, but out of necessity. Many Arab Americans are here because they chose to leave their countries of origin. Many of these are Arab Christians or Muslims who felt threatened by the growing militant Muslim extremists! Perhaps they too were "fringe" in their society as many would consider pagans and witches or Wiccans, specifically. To lump all Arabs into a group that you can't trust is indeed indicative of blind rage. It is a red flag of the "next wave" -- a wave we must do everything in our power to keep down to an absolute minimum. I say we should not bomb and war indescriminately -- for then we would be the same as the very ones we claim to hate! What, they touch us and we turn evil as they are? No! Like a surgeon, we should excise the evil disease that these terrorists are. You don't kill the patient, you know!? If you are known to kill your patients, how is your standing in your community? We need to make this a common goal globally, as much as possible. The emotional tone of the 18th message strongly suggests the motivation behind the next hate wave -- the very thing that can cause more damage than what the terrorists themselve did. Sometimes I think that the targets of the WTC and the Pentagon were only superficial, and that the real target was our national psyche/heart -- to poison our hearts, minds, and souls with hate and to devide us. United we stand, devided we fall. If you give into this hate, then you are doing their bidding, IMHO. Are you anyone's servant? No!! Our reactions are our personal responsibility, and every last woman, man, and child makes a difference in this. This just points out that everything is connected, and we are parts of the whole -- we all matter. Everyone counts. Everyone. Without all the help and unity we cannot do what we have to do -- the rescue and clean up in the attacked American areas being most apparent. Every last person counts. We need a unity and a positive united consciousness behind our actions. I may be Wiccan, my ex lover may be Sikh, my husband may be nondenominationally Christian, and so on. That is of no matter. Our hearts and our actions are. Wicca and many witches (who may or may not be Wiccan) often recognize that there are many paths to the same goal. We recognize and support others' rights to any religion they practice. Terrorists are not going to make me change my whole ethical make up. Not even terrorists. Not even a river of blind hatred. Okay?! So, I will not point to anyone just because they look Muslim or Arabic. The bloods have been mixed for many many centuries, and beyond, back and forth, back and forth, across the arabic countries, north africa, Afhanistan, Irag, Iran, and India! My ex lover/fiance was a North Eastern Indian, a Sikh. By appearances, you absolutely could not tell if he was Indian or Arabic. The bloods have been so mixed in that area of the world. I would have not necessarily have guessed he was Indian, had I not known him. And he wore a turban. Many Sikh men do. My fear is that many people of any descent from that general area of of the world will be attacked indescriminately. Nothing should be done indescriminately. Nothing. That is just lazy, blind, uncaring, and just as hateful and harmful (words fail this kind of harm, as many of the recent victims in NY or the Pentagon areas will attest to).

Yes, I also do not care to see a wave of indescriminate hate wash over Americans and their supporters -- for then we would be truly leveled -- to the terrorists level. I prefer to eliminate those reponsible -- with care and great deliberation, as a surgeon would have in removing cancer. I choose the word eliminate. I don't need to punish these people. Their path and their own souls are their business. Since they won't listen to reason and they won't change -- then I desire them to be eliminated -- not out of hate or anger, but out of necessity. It saddens me that they are consumed by stubbornness, blindness, and rage. I wish I could heal them all, but these do not wish to be healed -- they wish to exact pain and death on all -- because they themselves did not accept and recognize their personal and group responsibility for their own anger. (Care for a mirror, anyone?) Who is the real enemy? Punish? That's not my business. The creative force, which has both sides to it, will take care of them. By destroying them, out of necessity, we give birth to a more positive world by way of our positive unity and their absence -- and a gift of awareness of anger, hate, love, and unity. Humanity will gain wisdom from this, that is my hope. I simply mean they (whomever they are) are to be eliminated with precision, care, and full (as much as possible) knowledge of the actual facts. It saddens me they insist to persist to be the way they are. That is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. Yet they do it too themselves. They beg to be dealt with. And many intend to oblige them. This does not gladden my heart. There is evil and hate in the world. Let's now show the other side of the duality -- en force. Let's be positive and exacting -- without the blind, rash, indescrinate hate we claim to abhore -- characteristics that led the terrorists to attack us. Their actions were not rash, they were very deliberate. Their emotions that led up to them were careless, irresponsible and blaming, and undisciplined. It started in their minds, hearts and souls, this ugliness. I don't care to mirror it with like. I tend to tip it all toward balance with the very opposite. With love, discipline, compassion and unity. How very sad that it is a necessity to stop these people they way they may have to be stopped. Hopefully we can pull tactical moves and accomplish much through political finesse and unity through allies rather than just bombing massive areas. Once again, I prefer power through rather than power over. Power through allies and political maneuvering, along with any necessary violence (which hopefully will be in the great minority of all). Power though is far more positive and truly long lasting. If we give into unnecessary power over (via outright violence) then we are tripping too close to touching off more violence (power over). It's not that I don't recognize there may be some necessary violence -- specifically and responsibly aimed at those who are actually responsible for terrorism. It's that it is a question of balance. There has already been so much violence. To bed down with it and produce offspring wars is irresponsible. It's a question of balance. I would like to counter balance power over (terrorism), exhibited by the terrorists, with power through, as civilized countries do with the help of their allies. There will be some measure of an answer back in the form of necessary violence. But I want that to be the smaller portion of the whole. The larger portion of the whole of our actions I hope to be power through, which includes the tactical and the power through combined efforts of allies. The truth is we are not fighting whole nations. We are fighting factions of -- even the blind maiming hate they may well up in our own hearts at at times -- even in America. It does not matter where its roots lay. I sure hope we never commit the folly of warring against whole nations with indescriminate force, just as the terrorists aimed at doing with their hate bombs. If we war indescriminately against whole nations, our whole nation will be attacked by -- throwing it back in our faces. This is what many Arabs say is happening now, through the terrorist attacks. They already view our actions over there as too controlling, in opposition, and too indescriminate. We did do violence over there already. Listen to them. The atom bomb may pale in the face of what a hate bomb can lead to. No. I take care not to be hate's next victim. A hate bomb, which is what I believe these terrorists indeeded to be as a part of their mult-level assault, is different from an atom bomb. I can't help it but to suffer radiation's damage if I am unfortunate to be in its vacinity. But I am in full control and have full responsibility for my heart, mind and soul. I refuse to give into the blind rage and the hate. The planes the terrorists used as bombs to attack American landmarks and people -- these bombs will not succeed in gaining another victim of hate in "retaliation." To hate them back, and to turn on others indescriminately, would be to willingly throw myself in as both a victim and perpetuator of the ever giving hate bomb.

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