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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,710,164  

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Question of the Week: 59 - 9/11/2001

911 America: Talking Through The Terror...

Talking Through The Terror... And helping each other cope with the tragedies that struck at the very heart of the United States. The Witches Voice has opened up this forum in order that Pagans may express their thoughts on the terrorist attacks that took place in NYC and DC on September 11th. As the full realization of what happened and the toll numbers begin to come in, Americans have many challenges ahead.

What are your thoughts on these incidents? How are you feeling? Feel free to post any magickal workings or other support gatherings planned in your area.

WebNote 9/16/2001: Since we launched this on 911 this forum as become laced with powerful inspiration and critical information, feel free to use the search functions on your left to better define the info you are looking for. Search for your area, famous Pagans, key words etc. Also check Wren's Nest News for the latest news related to our community.

 Reponses:   There are 969 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Phoenix Metropolitan Areatwo Circles Planned For National Day Of Prayer And... Sep 14th. at 2:18:16 pm UTC

Emaara Blue (Phoenix) Age: 28 - Email


Phoenix Metropolitan Area

Two Circles Planned for National Day of Prayer and Mourning:

Los Olivos Park
28th St just North of Indian School Rd

12:30 PM and 6:00 PM

Pagans of all paths are welcome to come, share thoughts and prayers, wisdom and fellowship.


This Disaster Was The Act Of Mad Men, It Is Horrible And... Sep 14th. at 2:21:40 pm UTC

Brian Leach (new brunswick, New Jersey US) Age: 18 - Email


This disaster was the act of mad men, it is horrible and senseless. But let us not forget that the mad men are amongst us as well, US imperialism has been slaughtering innocents around the world for over 30 years. Do not take the easy route into Flag waving Nationalism, shift your paradigm and realize that there is blood on american hands as well. No senseless retaliatory violence. No "collatoral damage" is acceptable. No more innocents should die. Let us Honor our dead through PEACE rather than further violence. Let us reshape our society, and our foriegn policy into one that does not create monsters on either side. Love HUMANITY, not america.


I'd Like To Thank Heather From Montreal For Her Moving Post.and... Sep 14th. at 2:27:24 pm UTC

RuneWolf (Reston, Virginia US) Age: 43 - Email


I'd like to thank Heather from Montreal for her moving post.

And I, for one, would like to say THANK YOU! to all Canadians. Not only has there been an outpouring of support from the North, but I don't recall anyone thanking Canada specifically for sticking her neck out to help us. When this was all unfolding, Canada accepted those inbound foreign flights that were rerouted to her airports. In light of what was happening, Canada had no idea what might be coming her way; she might well have been subjected to attack herself, but she didn't say "No."

Thank you again, Canada.


In Honor Of Those Who Suffered And Died On September 11th, 2001... Sep 14th. at 2:29:23 pm UTC

Steven Day (gloucester, Massachusetts US) Age: 34 - Email


In honor of those who suffered and died on September 11th, 2001.

Today I Walked....

Along the coastline of the land where I was born. Seagulls play along the water, the waves crash rhythmically into the beach. I gaze upon the water, the sky, the rocks, and all that has been given to us...

Today I Stood....

Upon an ancient battleground, where our ancestors fought for their freedom. Cannons lay atop their rocky mounts, a now silent reminder of what we must do to protect ourselves and our freedom...

Today I Prayed....

That the Goddess will bless, and the God will protect the individuals - Our friends, our families, our loved ones - that must now go to fight to again protect what belongs to us: Our freedom. That they will return to us safe, and victorious.

Today I Wept....

Because there was no other choice.

Blessed Be.


I'm Personally Appalled By The Backlash That All Arab People Are To... Sep 14th. at 2:43:40 pm UTC

Johna Delano (Springvale, Maine US) Age: 35 - Email


I'm personally appalled by the backlash that ALL Arab people are to blame.Many people of Mid-east descent are born Americans.Religious persecution while being an old problem never ceases to amaze me for coming up with new ways to show hatred and contempt instead of the love, acceptance &inner peace that their saints, martyrs and other personages started off teaching.I'm praying for protection of the children of all those who ARE responsible for this act of hatred, that they will not blame the world for what happens to their parents and reject the natural impulse for revenge when they are of age.This is a circle that NEEDS to be broken!! LET THE HEALING BEGIN is my way to get through this for now.

Bright Blessings,
Johna M. Delano
a.k.a Red Dove


To Whom It May Concern In All Outlets Of Media And Government... Sep 14th. at 2:46:56 pm UTC

Shawn "Sazyanti" Gore (Loveland, Colorado US) Age: 24


To whom it may concern in all outlets of media and Government offices;

As a concerned and saddened citizen of the United States of America, I am just as appalled and hurt by the recent events that have taken place in New York City and around the world. However I have found that in the wake of all this tragedy and during our greatest hour of healing that I have never been more insulted and outraged in my whole life. Over the past week I have watched as every media source and government officer that has spoken, including the president himself, have openly preached the Christian faith. I have not once heard an acknowledgment for those of alternative faiths.

Today we are holding a "National Prayer and Remembrance Day" and I will be giving my thoughts and prayers for those who have lost and to those who are helping the cleanup effort just like everyone else will. However I will not be doing it in a church or temple. I am a pagan and will give my prayers in my own way.

I feel that by focusing so much on the Christian faiths that the president himself is declaring that the United States of America is a Christian country and that just is not so. I realize that alternative faiths do make up a small part of America but we are still Americans and deserve the same recognition as anyone else.

I also realize that this is a small complaint and issue in comparison to the hate crimes against Muslims in our country right now, but never the less I believe that the media and the government of our country should apologize and recognize that we may all be Americans but we are not all Christian.

Thank you


From Karrie9, Wisconsin, Usa,certain Things, Such As Attacking Civilians And Running... Sep 14th. at 3:00:57 pm UTC

Karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin US) Age: 40 - Email


From Karrie9, Wisconsin, USA,

Certain things, such as attacking civilians and running, are always wrong. If I allow harm to be done, by way of passivity or lack of appropriate action -- then I am not observing harm none, now am I? Allowing harm, by way of fear of action, is just as grevious as direct attack -- thousands and millions can die. If someone were to kill one of your children, would you let them run free, knowing they have a history of repeatedly returning to kill and run (terrorism) -- passively allowing them to strike again? It is true, we must learn the truth before we can ascertain, in any way, what is appropriate now. Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan, those in Pakistan and others involved (financial backing) must be stopped, thwarted, or worked with. The fact is, they will not stop until they are dead. This does not mean I will hate all Arabs or people who may even look like Arabs. My ex-fiance wore a turban (Sikh). He was yelled at by ingorant hateful people who didn't even realize he was of a different religion and from a different country (Punjab, India) than the militant extremist Arab muslims (and I do make that distinction) involved. It's true -- most Americans are not aware of all that our government did overseas and does. There are reasons for the Arab Hate Machine. But our actions were not the only fuel for the Arab Hate Machine. Our actions pale beside the real roots of the Arab Hate Machine. They just have a very emotionally depressed, disturbed, angry, fearful, and hateful culture. I have seen estimates that 95% of Afghanistani women are severely depressed, just as an example. Many of us know about the female mutilation suffered by some Arab women in different Arab Muslim countries -- just another piece of the puzzle. Afghanistan is is the country in which they will not allow their women and girls to go to school. Their thumbs are cut off for the offence of wearing nail polish. They kill their own wives, mothers, sisters, etc. Honor killings continue in Pakistan. What happens when you deprive the young of a whole mother that is capable of nurturing? Anyone remember the monkey studies in which they took the mothers away? The offspring were disturbed for life. This is the kind of environment that is giving rise to men like Atta (terrorist) and Osam Bin Ladin. Their religion (not the Muslim religion in general, but as it is practiced by the hateful ones -- I do make that distinction) only adds to the fuel of disturbance. We are only the excuse -- the scapegoat in the end of the whole engine of hate. Afhanistan and other Arab cultures, are at war with their own women and themselves. Indeed, Afghanistan is at civil war -- those explosions that we were first suspected of causing, in way of retaliation, had been going on and will go on as part of their own civil war. It is a culture of extreme hideous fear, hate, anger and fear. Osama Bin Laden and his followers are using these dark spectors as the vehicle of this hate machine -- a holy war. Of course all that hate and anger may be "righteously" targeted at a target. America is that target, and a religious war is the political vehicle -- oh shock, like that hasn't happened in history before. Only their method of war is different. There are two sides to every story. Yes, America has made mistakes. But you know what? Still, there was no excuse for this type of attack. I don't bath in hate, anger and revenge. If we do, on a national level, then we are our own next wave of attack on ourselves!!! No. I just want protective (war) and proactive measures to be taken in a timely and appropriate manner. I don't waste my precious energy on hate. Our resources will be strained enough, on this war on Terrorism!! I will support my country in any war effort. I will support any appropriate proactive measures. Proactive. This is just the beginning. There will be more terrorism. This is a different kind of war and much of it is new to all and old to some. New possibilities of warfare and terrorism (plastic composit weapons) appear as fast as technology advances, and it is hard to keep up with all that terrorists can do. They attack and run, attack and run. They willingly die for their cause, with many more in line -- eager to take their place. These people have declared a holy war against us -- making absolutely no differentiation between civilians and military. They do not know the real enemy. It is themselves. They harbor all that hate, anger, resentment and more. Let's not be like them. Let us not be our own next wave. United we stand, devided we fall.

Okay, Okay, it's true that Osama Bin Laden is from Bedouin stock -- and that they interbreed with their own close relatives -- commonly and on purpose. But that is of little issue here! Yes, we should kill the rabid dogs (terrorists) to rid the world of this disease. By the way, Mr. Laden is not a religiously learned man! He is clearly breaking major portions of the Koran that only a very imbalanced man of great political motivation, ego, and hate could even pretend to ignore. One of the portions of the Koran that clearly states what Mr. Laden did is indeed against God/Allah/the Creator -- well, that is being heard in the memorial service President Bush now sits in. But the point here was not to do it (wiping out terrorism) out of anger, although anger undoubtedly exists. The point was to accomplish the obliteration of this self-appointed enemy. Not out of anger, but out of necessity. Many Arab Americans are here because they chose to leave their countries of origin. Many of these are Arab Christians or Muslims who felt threatened by the growing militant Muslim extremists! Perhaps they too were "fringe" in their society as many would consider pagans and witches or Wiccans, specifically. To lump all Arabs into a group that you can't trust is indeed indicative of blind rage. It is a red flag of the "next wave" -- a wave we must do everything in our power to keep down to an absolute minimum. I say we should not bomb and war indescriminately -- for then we would be the same as the very ones we claim to hate! What, they touch us and we turn evil as they are? No! Like a surgeon, we should excise the evil disease that these terrorists are. You don't kill the patient, you know!? If you are known to kill your patients, how is your standing in your community? We need to make this a common goal globally, as much as possible. The emotional tone of the 18th message strongly suggests the motivation behind the next hate wave -- the very thing that can cause more damage than what the terrorists themselve did. Sometimes I think that the targets of the WTC and the Pentagon were only superficial, and that the real target was our national psyche/heart -- to poison our hearts, minds, and souls with hate and to devide us. United we stand, devided we fall. If you give into this hate, then you are doing their bidding, IMHO. Are you anyone's servant? No!! Our reactions are our personal responsibility, and every last woman, man, and child makes a difference in this. This just points out that everything is connected, and we are parts of the whole -- we all matter. Everyone counts. Everyone. Without all the help and unity we cannot do what we have to do -- the rescue and clean up in the attacked American areas being most apparent. Every last person counts. We need a unity and a positive united consciousness behind our actions. I may be Wiccan, my ex lover may be Sikh, my husband may be nondenominationally Christian, and so on. That is of no matter. Our hearts and our actions are. Wicca and many witches (who may or may not be Wiccan) often recognize that there are many paths to the same goal. We recognize and support others' rights to any religion they practice. Terrorists are not going to make me change my whole ethical make up. Not even terrorists. Not even a river of blind hatred. Okay?! So, I will not point to anyone just because they look Muslim or Arabic. The bloods have been mixed for many many centuries, and beyond, back and forth, back and forth, across the arabic countries, north africa, Afhanistan, Irag, Iran, and India! My ex lover/fiance was a North Eastern Indian, a Sikh. By appearances, you absolutely could not tell if he was Indian or Arabic. The bloods have been so mixed in that area of the world. I would have not necessarily have guessed he was Indian, had I not known him. And he wore a turban. Many Sikh men do. My fear is that many people of any descent from that general area of of the world will be attacked indescriminately. Nothing should be done indescriminately. Nothing. That is just lazy, blind, uncaring, and just as hateful and harmful (words fail this kind of harm, as many of the recent victims in NY or the Pentagon areas will attest to).

Yes, I also do not care to see a wave of indescriminate hate wash over Americans and their supporters -- for then we would be truly leveled -- to the terrorists level. I prefer to eliminate those reponsible -- with care and great deliberation, as a surgeon would have in removing cancer. I choose the word eliminate. I don't need to punish these people. Their path and their own souls are their business. Since they won't listen to reason and they won't change -- then I desire them to be eliminated -- not out of hate or anger, but out of necessity. It saddens me that they are consumed by stubbornness, blindness, and rage. I wish I could heal them all, but these do not wish to be healed -- they wish to exact pain and death on all -- because they themselves did not accept and recognize their personal and group responsibility for their own anger. (Care for a mirror, anyone?) Who is the real enemy? Punish? That's not my business. The creative force, which has both sides to it, will take care of them. By destroying them, out of necessity, we give birth to a more positive world by way of our positive unity and their absence -- and a gift of awareness of anger, hate, love, and unity. Humanity will gain wisdom from this, that is my hope. I simply mean they (whomever they are) are to be eliminated with precision, care, and full (as much as possible) knowledge of the actual facts. It saddens me they insist to persist to be the way they are. That is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. Yet they do it too themselves. They beg to be dealt with. And many intend to oblige them. This does not gladden my heart. There is evil and hate in the world. Let's now show the other side of the duality -- en force. Let's be positive and exacting -- without the blind, rash, indescrinate hate we claim to abhore -- characteristics that led the terrorists to attack us. Their actions were not rash, they were very deliberate. Their emotions that led up to them were careless, irresponsible and blaming, and undisciplined. It started in their minds, hearts and souls, this ugliness. I don't care to mirror it with like. I tend to tip it all toward balance with the very opposite. With love, discipline, compassion and unity. How very sad that it is a necessity to stop these people they way they may have to be stopped. Hopefully we can pull tactical moves and accomplish much through political finesse and unity through allies rather than just bombing massive areas. Once again, I prefer power through rather than power over. Power through allies and political maneuvering, along with any necessary violence (which hopefully will be in the great minority of all). Power though is far more positive and truly long lasting. If we give into unnecessary power over (via outright violence) then we are tripping too close to touching off more violence (power over). It's not that I don't recognize there may be some necessary violence -- specifically and responsibly aimed at those who are actually responsible for terrorism. It's that it is a question of balance. There has already been so much violence. To bed down with it and produce offspring wars is irresponsible. It's a question of balance. I would like to counter balance power over (terrorism), exhibited by the terrorists, with power through, as civilized countries do with the help of their allies. There will be some measure of an answer back in the form of necessary violence. But I want that to be the smaller portion of the whole. The larger portion of the whole of our actions I hope to be power through, which includes the tactical and the power through combined efforts of allies. The truth is we are not fighting whole nations. We are fighting factions of -- even the blind maiming hate they may well up in our own hearts at at times -- even in America. It does not matter where its roots lay. I sure hope we never commit the folly of warring against whole nations with indescriminate force, just as the terrorists aimed at doing with their hate bombs. If we war indescriminately against whole nations, our whole nation will be attacked by -- throwing it back in our faces. This is what many Arabs say is happening now, through the terrorist attacks. They already view our actions over there as too controlling, in opposition, and too indescriminate. We did do violence over there already. Listen to them. The atom bomb may pale in the face of what a hate bomb can lead to. No. I take care not to be hate's next victim. A hate bomb, which is what I believe these terrorists indeeded to be as a part of their mult-level assault, is different from an atom bomb. I can't help it but to suffer radiation's damage if I am unfortunate to be in its vacinity. But I am in full control and have full responsibility for my heart, mind and soul. I refuse to give into the blind rage and the hate. The planes the terrorists used as bombs to attack American landmarks and people -- these bombs will not succeed in gaining another victim of hate in "retaliation." To hate them back, and to turn on others indescriminately, would be to willingly throw myself in as both a victim and perpetuator of the ever giving hate bomb.


To Shawn Gore:i Too Have Noticed A Disturbing Lack Of Alternate... Sep 14th. at 3:08:30 pm UTC

Critter (Nashville, Tennessee US) Age: 26 - Email


To Shawn Gore:

I too have noticed a disturbing lack of alternate religions mentioned. I am disturbed by Congress singing "God Bless America". No doubt it is an inspirational song, but is not "The Star Spangled Banner" our national anthem?

Jerry Falwell came on national TV last night and said the bombing was the work of "Pagans, abortionists, and feminists". While I do not take Falwell seriously, sadly there are those that do. This must not become a trend!

I will be honest with you. I am not Wiccan. I am not even Pagan. I am a Methodist. But to use this oppertunity to claim that the CHRISTIAN way is better? Falwell is no better than the people of Taliban.

I don't like to throw a wrench into this seeming solidarity, but this is not the time, Bush and Falwell.

And why would extreme Muslims park a 757 in a sky scraper?

Because their God told them to.


The Weight Of All This Bad Karma Is So Gut Wrenching Terrifing... Sep 14th. at 3:38:31 pm UTC

Micky Clifford (Seguin, Texas US) Age: 47 - Email


The weight of all this bad karma is so gut wrenching terrifing. I can't focus, I feel my energies going in a zillion directions. All around me others are talking of their anger and what should happen but, I have all this energy that just streams out in all directions. I thank the blessed Lord and Lady for your suggestions. You have given me a focal point. And so many of you are right we must focus our energies on the lost ones to help them get to summerland and to heal from this horrible act. To help those left behind to mourn, greive and go on. To strenghen the workers, the rescue crews and to give clarity and strenghen to our leaders to make the best decisions possible. The Law of Three will come to past for all those involved in this horror of horrors. We must help the dead, the survivors and the country as a whole to stay strong and go on. So mote it be!

Blessed Be


I Don't Have Much To Say. I Don't Know If I Am... Sep 14th. at 3:56:20 pm UTC

Morgan Pierceheart (Boston, Massachusetts US) Age: 28 - Email


I don't have much to say. I don't know if I am in shock, or starting to get into a bit of post traumatic stress disorder . . . I work in an security office for a large financial corporation. My job is to keep the rest of the corporation informed of what's going on secuirty wise. I didn't have time on tuesday to hurt. I had to hold back, to help be a small voice of calmness and sanity in this insane world, so that the people who looked to me for answers could get them. I didn't even have time to comfort my wife when she called to let me know; all i could say was, "I know. We're busy." and hang up. I am an Army reservist who has served a tour in Bosnia recently. I have volunteered to work at an Emergency Operations Center for the Army, so that information regarding possible alerts and call-ups can go out in a timely fashion. NO, I have not heard if my unit is getting activated. Do I worry? No, I have lived through one deployment where people actually wanted to kill me, and I will deal with it the same way: do my best. I have guys at work telling me we shouldn't let any more muslims come in to the US, and they don't understand why I get upset. Let's see: I just spent 7-8 months defending Muslim from the exact same kind of logic as that, from peole with guns and bombs and grenades.

We must heal our Nation, and part of that healing includes seeing justice performed. I am NOT saying justice as in legal stuff, like subpoenaing Bin Laden (or is that ibn Sharmuta now?), but justie like he gets or whoever did this gets what he deserves. We MUST NOT give in to terrorists, whose goal is to instill terror, and disrupt our lives beyond any hope of correction. If we begin to hate those among us who are different, we have given the terrorists the victory that our Unity will deny them.

I will post a quick follow up for the Boston people . . . .


I Saw This With My Own Eyes, Although I Was Safely At... Sep 14th. at 3:59:06 pm UTC

Trinity (Lake Grove, New York US) Age: 27 - Email


I saw this with my own eyes, although I was safely at a distance. New York is my home & it won't ever be the same. I don't think I will ever be the same.
I used to say that New Yorkers were pretty nasty people, kinda rude - very unique attitudes. I could say this because I am one of them.
But as we can all see on TV these past few days, New Yorkers have pulled together & shown each other such compassion & love. I am proud of them, as I am also proud of the residents that have not created havoc elsewhere in the city. Its WONDERFUL & so respectful of the situation.
Take care of each other. Tell people that you love them. When you think of this tragedy, TALK to those who've passed. Tell them what's in your heart, but tell them to go into the light. I think there are are lot of confused souls there that need our help.
I Listened to this CD today... "Elton John & Tim Rice's AIDA."
There is a song on it that I thought was so beautiful and so sad, but strengthening at the same time. Insert whatever you want in place of"Nubia"..... The United States, New York, DC, The Earth, Their People....
Me writting these words do no justice to the beauty of the song but....

THE GODS LOVE NUBIA

Take me in my dreams recurring
Cheerful as a childhood dance
Into one more taste of freedom
One more longing backward glance

In the sway of somber music
I shall never, never understand
Let me slip into the sweeter
Chorus of that other land...

The gods love Nubia
The Beautiful, the golden
the radiant, the fertile, The gentle and the blessed

The pain of Nubia
Is only of the moment
The desolate, the suffering
the plundered, the oppressed

The gods love Nubia
their glorious creation
Their songs roll sweetly across
the harvest plain

The tears of Nubia
A passing aberation
They wash into the river and are
never cried again

The gods love Nubia
we have to keep believing
Though scattered and divided ....[(WHICH WE AREN"T!!!!!)]
We are still it's heart

The fall of Nubia
Ephemeral and fleeting
The spirit always burning
Though the flesh is torn apart

Take me in my dreams recurring
Cheerful as a childhood dance
Into one more taste of freedom
One more longing backward glance
The Godes love Nubia, the beautiful , the golden
The radiant, the fertile, the gentle and the blessed
The pain of Nubia is only of the moment
the desolate, the suffering, the plundered, the oppressed

The gods love Nubia, we have to keep believing
Though scattered and divided we are still its heart
The fall of Nubia ephemeral and fleeting the spirit
always burning though the flesh is torn apart

Take me in my dreams recurring
One more longing backward glance.


All Boston Pagans!!!!! Friday Night 7:00 Pm Edt Meet At The... Sep 14th. at 4:00:13 pm UTC

Morgan Pierceheart (Boston, Massachusetts US) Age: 28 - Email


ALL BOSTON PAGANS!!!!! Friday night 7:00 pm edt meet at the Veterans' memorial on the Boston common for a candlelight gathering. Wear something patriotic, or representational of healing. Hint: I'll be the one in the grey army sweat shirt. I know this is a last minute thing, but I thought I was going to be working for the army tonight.

again, 7:00 pm edt candlelight at the veterans' memorial on the common to show that we will not let terror consume and defeat us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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