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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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89. Bah-Humbug! Are You Offended by Christmas? - [173]

88. Are We Alone in The Universe? - [67]

87. The Pagan Web 2002... Your likes? Dislikes? - [50]

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83. Time to Talk Politics and Elections… - [109]

82. Your Samhain/Beltaine Musings - [50]

81. ExCUSE Me! Has Common Courtesy Become A Thing of the Past? - [97]

80. Polytheist, Monotheist, Dualist or Other? - [104]

79. Have You Switched Pagan Paths? - [110]

78. Would You Take Part in a Public Event or Protest AS a Pagan? - [268]

77. Pot-Kettle: Do We Have Our Own Fundamentalists? - [91]

76. America 911: One Year Later. What's Changed? Are we Safer? - [103]

75. So What Do YOU Think of the Pagan Web? - [43]

74. What is/was your 2002 New Year's resolution - [23]

73. Do You Believe in Faeries? - [44]

72. Is 'Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men' Possible? - [28]

71. How Do YOU View the Balance of Light and Dark? - [22]

70. What's News? - [22]

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59. 911 America: Talking Through The Terror... - [969]

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48. How Fares The First Amendment? - [20]

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38. What Are The Greatest Challenges That Pagans Face Today? - [35]

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36. Should the United States Apologize to China - [32]

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33. What Is The Appropriate Response to Bigotry and Religious Hatred? - [108]

32. Why Are Kids Killing Kids? - [60]

31. Whassa Matter With Kids Today? - [71]

30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

29. How About Some New Holidays? - [39]

28. Where Did You Get Your Magickal Name? - [93]

27. Where Are The Pagan Social Programs? Do We Care? - [22]

26. What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan? - [87]

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23. Who or What is a "Pagan Leader"? - [61]

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15. What are YOU Thankful For? - [87]

14. The Unresolved US Election - [263]

13. Divination - [29]

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 24,120,151  

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Question of the Week: 59 - 9/11/2001

911 America: Talking Through The Terror...

Talking Through The Terror... And helping each other cope with the tragedies that struck at the very heart of the United States. The Witches Voice has opened up this forum in order that Pagans may express their thoughts on the terrorist attacks that took place in NYC and DC on September 11th. As the full realization of what happened and the toll numbers begin to come in, Americans have many challenges ahead.

What are your thoughts on these incidents? How are you feeling? Feel free to post any magickal workings or other support gatherings planned in your area.

WebNote 9/16/2001: Since we launched this on 911 this forum as become laced with powerful inspiration and critical information, feel free to use the search functions on your left to better define the info you are looking for. Search for your area, famous Pagans, key words etc. Also check Wren's Nest News for the latest news related to our community.

 Reponses:   There are 969 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

I'm Alive. Shaken, Dazed, Shocked...but Alive. These Last Couple Of Days... Sep 14th. at 4:50:31 pm EDT

Ariadne ni Cullaigh (New york, New York US) Age: 36

I'm Alive. Shaken, dazed, shocked...but alive. These last couple of days have been more than I have been able to handle and my boyfriend and I have both basically holed-up in the house, glued to the TV, emotionless and unwilling to face life at the moment. We are now both unemployed. Both of our companies are now under a pile of debris. He was in the thick of it and for 6 hours I had no idea if he was alive or not. I guess fate was on my side when I got let go from my job a few weeks ago. The building that I worked in no longer exists. Friends and coworkers are still missing. We can see the skyline from my house and every so often the both of us go out and just stare, unbelieving, at what we don't see. Places where we used to sit and chat when we first started dating are beneath the rubble. The restaurant where we had our first dinner together is gone. The fountain where we had our first kiss is now beneath tons of shrapnel....these are viable memories that I won't be able to share with our children. I've cried more these last few days then I have my whole life and now I'm just numb. I feel like a shell, and as much as I don't want it to be, the hatred is there, like a huge fiery chunk of bile in my throat. I have never been a hateful person and pride mysife as being a non-confrontational, passive Wiccan, but these people, in my eyes, won't suffer enough to make up for what we lost here. We could bomb them into oblivion and I wouldn't be satisfied. Death would be too merciful for them...and torture could never be cruel enough.

I'm not quite myself these days and literally don't know when I will be. I was always so fearless and happy-go-lucky, now I'm paranoid, I jump at loud noises and I'm suddenly afraid of the dark. This has changed us all forever.

Be safe and heartfelt blessings to all you know.

How Dare We Not Stand Up To Oppose Evil In This World... Sep 14th. at 4:52:29 pm EDT

StarShadow (Greater Los Angeles Area, California US) Age: 38 - Email

>>>How dare we not stand up to oppose evil in this world? How dare we think that we are excused from standing between the innocent of all nations and the evil that would with a glad and cheerful smile blow them into tiny bits on their way to instant martyrdom, excused--- lest we inccur "some bad karma".>>>

It's a very simple concept. Either you believe in the law of three or you don't. If it's okay to exact revenge in this situation, that excuses me to hex my boss if she wrongs me, throw mud at my neighbors house because he scratched my car, etc, just all the little unfair, intential wrongs people lay on us every day.

In my tradition I was taught hexing people vengefully ( or that have wronged you as well) is very much not okay, because that will return to you. If you want blood, if you want revenge, okay. But be prepared to pay a high price.

Intead of exacting personal retribution on a day to day basis, I prefer to let the universe (Goddess, God) balance it. Sometimes, it takes a while. But guess what? It always balances. So, are we supposed to trust karma to only the small things in life and abandon our principles when we feel like it?

As a pacifist and Pagan, I cannot simply set aside my values when I or my country is hurt or angry. I have to walk this walk. I cannot embrace a teaching of blood for blood. The shedding of blood is wrong, period, and it will return to the shedder in time.

In Response: I Do Not Advocate "revenge". I Advocate Justice. If You... Sep 14th. at 5:00:11 pm EDT

Anne (st. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 40 - Email

In response: I do not advocate "revenge". I advocate justice. If you choose not to act or support those who do, then go as you must. And as I noted, the law of three comes back for inaction as well as action. I hope that you find your way as you see fit, and I pray that there will be no need to persue a military path.


For Witchkin In The Tallahassee, Fl Area:a Community Interfaith Forum Will... Sep 14th. at 5:03:33 pm EDT

Diana (Tallahassee, Florida US) Age: 34 - Email

For Witchkin in the Tallahassee, FL area:

A community interfaith forum will be held Thursday, September 20th (a
week from today) 7:30pm at First Presbyterian Church. This is in
response to vandal-like behavior on the part of unknown persons
toward one or both of the Islamic mosques in Tallahassee, and other,
recent events. The content of the forum's discussion will be left to
the participants, but can include prayer and any other appropriate

Also, First Church is making its sanctuary available during the day
for people who need a quiet place to pray, meditate, etc. Volunteers
will be available as well, if needed.

The First Presbyterian Church is located downtown, at the corner of
Adams and Park.

It Is Important To Remember As We Consider A Response To This... Sep 14th. at 5:09:15 pm EDT

Sarah James (Minneapolis, Minnesota US) Age: 33

It is important to remember as we consider a response to this act that the United States commits acts of terrorism, supports extremists financially and with physical and training resources, and lets countless human rights violations occur with not a word.

If you are a citizen of the United States you participate in those activities. WE supported the Taliban, WE trained many of the terrorists who are now suspects in this deadly act. And I am shamed that I did not speak out more.

If we say that we are determined to end terrorism, we must begin with ourselves.

Respectfully, and with tears in her eyes,

Creedism Đ A Crime Given A Name.for Centuries, It Was Acceptable To... Sep 14th. at 5:12:31 pm EDT

Harry Lerwill (Fresno, California US) Age: 35 - Email

Creedism Đ a crime given a name.

For centuries, it was acceptable to discriminate against people who came from a different background, a different tribe. People of color sold into slavery by rival tribes and then sold again on an auction block.

In the twentieth century that changed. We, as civilized people began to see that color, tribe and nationality, were not barriers to separate one from another, but diversity to be celebrated and learned from. We have not overcome racism completely, but have taken great strides towards this goal. As humans, we fail occasionally, but we walk together towards a world where all races stand together and stand as equals.

For centuries, it has been acceptable to discriminate against people who come from a different background, a different creed. People of belief slain by rival religions and their culture demonized to justify horrendous crimes.

In the twenty-first century, it is time for that to change. We, as civilized people need to see those religious beliefs, or the embracing of secular ideologies, are part of our rights as human beings. As humans, we need to walk together towards a world where different religious may not agree, but agree to allow each to live in peace.

Creedism Đ the discrimination against another based on their choice of religion, is at the heart of these tragedies. We have remained silent as one religion blames another for the conflict in their region. We have listened as fanatics preach that their religion is the only religion that is right and wage verbal and physical war on others.

It is not the religions of the world that are to blame. The founders of the religions that make the culture of the world so rich and diverse have one thing in common: the desire to make life better for all. They address the need a need for spiritual values; they give us a framework to ask metaphysical questions and to find such answers that edify our lives.

The blame lies in a few human hearts. The hearts of those who believe that to have a different religion is an insult, that to support diversity is to take away something of their beliefs. It lies in the heart of those that see religion as a tool of political and social control, using the human fear of death and apprehension of what lies beyond to manipulate individuals and cultures to nefarious ends.

The true Muslim does not fear western culture, Judaism or Christianity. A true Christian does not fear secularism as a threat to their way of life. Fear is the enemy. Fear that another is different, fear that another may be right and the individual be wrong. A person who is at ease with their creed own can walk with their head held up high, confident in their own Truth, they do not need the ÔotherŐ to embrace their beliefs to validate them.

It is time we made creedism unacceptable in society. We need to make the defaming of other religions and beliefs a hate crime, as equally unacceptable as defaming another race. It is an evil threatens to divide us during this new millennium.

I Am Shocked And Appalled To See Pagans On This Forum Posting... Sep 14th. at 5:13:48 pm EDT

Pandora (Orlando, Florida US) Age: 16 - Email

I am shocked and appalled to see pagans on this forum posting about how we should forgive bin Laden and his lot. They seem to think that if we send them flowers, teddy bears, and chocolate kisses, all terrorists will rethink their vendetta against our country and become our best friends. All we need is love, right?


Do we not worship gods of war and vengeance? Do They not demand that we not allow evil to exist in our world? Do we not have a duty to protect our country and our brothers and sisters within it?

I am personally sick to death of hearing how the Threefold Law and the Rede oppose retribution. News flash: alot of pagans put no stock in those silly rules. I know I don't. But for those who do, think about this-if you allow evil to exist in your world and harm others, are you not just as bad as those who create that evil?

I have cursed these terrorists, and those who support them, with every curse I know. I have prayed to my matron Isis in Her Warrior Queen aspect to bring retribution to him in the only way you can bring retribution to terrorists-death. I have prayed to all of the Gods, all of my ancestors, all of my patron saints and the patron saints of America, begging each of them to fight for our land and everything we stand for. I do not mind admitting it: I have prayed for the blood of these evil people to be spilt, and soon.

How many more innocent people have do be murdered before the pacifists and the fluff bunnies will agree that, in this case, bloodshed is the only answer?

First Of All, It Is Completely Ignorant To Concentrate Only On "how... Sep 14th. at 5:50:46 pm EDT

Superproblem (Atlanta, Georgia US) Age: 99 - Email

First of all, it is completely ignorant to concentrate only on "HOW" this tragedy happened and not "WHY" it happened. I'll tell you HOW it happened. With advanced technology. This is modern day war, and of course innocent people were slaughtered, because that's what happens in WAR. War is no longer one team on one side of the field coming at the other team on the other side of the field....all dressed up in coordinating colors to distinguish who is who. Didn't we learn anything from Viet-Nam? This reminds me a lot like the battle between SCIENCE and PHILOSOPHY. Scientists are always trying to figure out HOW we are here, and Philosophers are always trying to figure out WHY we are here. And, BOTH are equally important approaches.

Second of all, how do we as Americans know for sure that we didn't do something to piss off these people to the point where they feel the only way to fix the problem is by getting everyone's attention by causing a major tragic event? DO YOU ALL BELIEVE WHAT CNN AND THE REST OF THE MEDIA TELLS YOU????? Of course our American media is going to make America look as good as possible. Why would we watch anything on the news about us financing these terroists and bombing Iraq and other countries for several years. The point is, as Americans realizing that the Media is CENSORED, we must try to ask questions and take the TIME to dig DEEPER, instead of believing that every single thing you hear on the news is GOSPEL. I'm NOT saying that what these bastard highjakers did was fact, it was WRONG....WRONG as ever WRONG could be........all I'm saying is we need to find out if we did something WRONG to them first. AND this might not be easy.

AND LAST, but certainly not least......what is ROOT of the problem for the Middle East and in every other country around the world? ORGANIZED RELIGIONS.
This event SHOULD be a wakeup call (as if we haven't had many, many other events happen) that people can get so wrapped up in their religious beliefs, that they become fanatical, and are willing to KILL others and KILL themselves....all in the name of GOD. AND since I severely doubt the entire world will ever agree upon one set of beliefs about GOD, I suggest everybody join together to help eradicate, YES, GET RID OF.... organized religions and just call ourselves SPIRITUAL, instead of religious. We can all STILL have our little opinions about GOD, but to turn our opinions into BELIEFS and then turn our beliefs into a powerful money-making, law-infilitrating ORGANIZATION WRONG, VERY WRONG. GOD should not be a BUSINESS or a POLITICAL MOVEMENT.

THIS message was brought to you by the mind behind Freedom Through Fashion.

Having The Internet Really Brings Home How Terrible A Tragedy This Is... Sep 14th. at 5:58:05 pm EDT

Sabrina (galway, Ireland) Age: 15 - Email

Having the internet really brings home how terrible a tragedy this is,
You know, you've got people on messenger, and sending emails, all looking for
some lost relative or friend and it's scary.

I Already Posted, But I Just Wanted To Add Something. I Am... Sep 14th. at 6:03:07 pm EDT

karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin US) Age: 40

I already posted, but I just wanted to add something. I am sad to hear of Jerry Falwell's blaming and accusations that could contribute to hate crimes, and which could to divide us as we try to unite. His words would contribute to perpetuation of the hate bomb's ripping our country apart.

Gays, Pagans, and other groups did not create the terrorists or cause them to do what they did.

Blaming, shaming, rationalization and denial are all part of "errors in thinking" and lead to very negative, destructive, deviding, resource-theiving ramifications that can ripple through out the nations and the centuries.

How much do you wanna bet, with Jerry Falwell's political connections, that he was told to retract what he said -- from a very high source.

He means to wound, devide, and stir up blame and hate shenanigans.

CNN covered Falwell's Folley, as I call it.

Errors in Thinking: (it's in there, do a word search)

"Glossary of Errors in Thinking" (from a 1960's guide "The Plain Rhetoric"). It lists:

- Fact and opinion

- Hasty generalization -- true for a part ! => true for the whole

- Post hoc reasoning -- preceeding != causes

- False analogy

- Fallacies of composition and division -- specific != general, general
!= specific.

- Fallacy of simple extremes (false dilemma)

- Faulty classification -- non-exaustive, non-exclusive categories

- Vagueness

- Over-precision

- Misusing authority -- expertise in A ! => expertise in B

- The "bandwagon" fallacy -- "can 1.1 billion Chinese be wrong?"

- Ad populum appeals -- "If this bill becomes law, radicals

and long-haried professors will be telling us how to run

our business"

- Ad hominem attacks -- "Only a subversive would ask such a


- Non sequitur

- Begging the question

What about the "errors" (logical or
procedural) of:

- Insistance on being wrong -- in the face of overwhelming evidence, a
debator claims censorship, conspiracy, weak-mindedness, whatever, of his
adversaries, or just plain insists on falsehoods.

- Avalanch tactics/equal time -- in moderated debate, each side has a
fixed time to argue a point. In an unmoderated newsgroup or forum, a
small number of people can post an inordiante number of messages,
effectively flooding the discussion. The opposition's thunder is stolen
by virtue that *some* participants will respond to *most* of the
replies, extending the avalanch.

- Ignoring substance -- exacerbates the above in that the noxious party
will often ignore replies of substance, instead....

- Rising to provocation -- answering posts of a provocative, insulting,
or slandering nature.

- Arguing opinions or values -- I don't think it's possible to debate
fundamental beliefs (call that a fundamental belief). If I think racism
is good or alchohol is evil, you're not likely to change my mind. If
the topic is "racism causes social strife" or "alchohol is a net social
and medical good", then some measure of costs and/or benefits may be
mustered. I'll generally drop an argument when one side or the other
has argued a circle and restates a prior argument.

- Unsubstatiated argument -- might fall under arguing opinion. Failing
to substantiate a claim with evidence, cites, etc. If I'm asked for a
patent number, I'll try to dig it up.

- Repeated assertion -- this shares ground with arguing opinions,
unsubstatiation, and avalanch, but if the opposing side insists on
simply restating a question or assertion, the argument tends to fall.

What An Amazing Sight! I Kept Expecting To See Godzilla Come Tramping... Sep 14th. at 6:08:16 pm EDT

Tish Haymer (Tucson, Arizona US) Age: 43 - Email

What an amazing sight! I kept expecting to see Godzilla come tramping through the smoke & fire- except that this was REAL, & horrific. And sadly, I'm not entirely surprised that it happened, due to our being so nonchalant in assuming that it "could never happen here". I'm split between hoping that we'll learn from this & not let our hurt & anger lead us to do the same thing in retaliation, claiming that "this is DIFFERENT, because THEY (whomever "they" are) deserve it!", & knowing that human nature may well cause us to do just that. I'm planning on doing a ritual this weekend with my lover to mourn this tragedy, send healing to all of us planet-wide (including whomever did it, as they truly don't know what they're doing), & believe it or not, thank the gods for the opportunity to somehow pull some good from this. (On a personal level, any anger I had towards anyone before I heard about it Tuesday morning has completely disappeared- funny how one's priorities change during a crisis!) I'd also like to thank everyone worldwide who has been kind in sending prayers, energy, healing words, etc. to us & our country. May we all grow wiser & closer as a result.

Dearest Brothers And Sisters In The Craft,today Is A Day Of... Sep 14th. at 6:26:57 pm EDT

Ariel (Tustin, California US) Age: 37 - Email

Dearest Brothers and Sisters in the Craft,

Today is a day of prayer by all faiths. The Craft exists as smaller units and solitary individuals united as a diverse whole. Please be in contact with your fellow friends, students and leaders today whether in person, by phone, or by email to lend a few moments of silence and prayer which will invoke the light and encourage the healing process to move through our country and our planet. Prayer is our greatest power.

Dear Father and Mother,

We recognize that you are the Creator of all that lives; out of your love we receive life. We call upon that love in this moment. We understand that you alone have the power to lift us out of this our darkness. We now relinquish all of our thoughts, desires, fears, anger, expectaions, hopes, despair, terror and sorrow to you. We ask that you now take over completely. We ask that the way be made clear to us. We realize that each of us can be used as a potent force for healing and peace now, and we are willing to do your bidding. We understand that the power that created flowers, babies, trees, mountains, air, fire, oceans and all that is miraculous in this universe is the very same power that will heal us miraculously in this moment, if we but allow it. We step aside, and let your power rush through us, and we will follow your lead. Please let our way be shown to us now. We ask for miracles in this moment. We loosen from our minds all hardened thinking which steals our faith in miracles. We ask that our magic be used by you as we light our candles today, and that you take our magic and transform it into that which is miraculous and beyond all our understanding of what is possible. We are open and receptive to that which is love and goodness; we are open and receptive to radical healing and transformation today.

Thank you very much.

Together we say blessed be.


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