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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 18,311,414  

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Question of the Week: 83 - 10/27/2002

Time to Talk Politics and Elections…

Eek! It’s the silly season again.

For U.S. Pagans/Heathens: The U.S. is holding mid-term elections Nov. 5th. Will you be voting? What are the issues that are most important to you? Do you vote by issue or by party? Do you have any thoughts on how it will turn out?

Non-U.S. Pagans/Heathens: The U.S. is woefully ignorant about your political processes. Please enlighten us. How many parties do you have? What are the names of the parties and what platforms do they represent? Do you have 'liberals' and 'conservatives'? How often do you vote? Do you elect representatives? How do you contact these representatives about your issues?

As always while talking politics, discussions can become heated. Please stay on the issues and do not resort to personal attacks. Further discussions should be taken to e-mail.

 Reponses:   There are 109 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

This May Be Our Last Chance To Stop The War Machine Oct 28th. at 1:23:23 pm UTC

Alison Harlow (Santa Cruz County, California (USA)) Age: 68 - Email

It is crucial that Americans elect a majority in the Senate that will stop the Bush Administration's plans to attempt to impose American hegemony over the planet. This evil policy will result in polarizing the world's peoples, bankrupting many nations' economies, and devastating the planet.

An Ephiphany I Had Oct 28th. at 2:49:28 pm UTC

DolphinSmile (Austin, Texas) Age: 21 - Email

Someone said something about not wanting to vote Green because it might divide the liberal vote and let the Republican win.

I used to think that way, but this year I just started going to UT (That's the University of Texas at Austin for those of you who don't know). Austin has given me many opportunities for learning about what's really going on with all this political stuff.

I have decided that Democrats are traitors and liars. Most of them anyway. The difference between them and Republicans is razor thin. I have found out that Republicans and Democrats actually do the SAME THINGS when in office, they just promise different things when campaining. Just go out there and do some research on what kind of stuff has gone on when members of different parties have been in office. I bet if you didn't know which were Democrats and which were Republicans you wouldn't be able to tell.

I am voting Green this year. Screw the Democrats and their empty promises! The Green Party candidate for governor, Rahul Marjaran (I probably spelled his name wrong, sorry dude), has been attending anti-war rallies and teach-ins. Now that's impressive. In fact, he's the only candidate I have heard from so far that is totally against war, as opposed to these wishy-washy Democrats. I also agree with him on other issues, but the Iraq thing seems to be the one of most immediate importance. I know technically a governor isn't who gets to decide on these things, but wouldn't it be neat for the governor of Texas to be against the former governor of Texas on this war thing? Attacking him on his old turf, right here in Austin. Ah, what a nice dream.

So what if my vote lets Perry win? Big deal. What I've gotten from this race (which people have been calling the most negative race in Texas history) is that all Perry says is that Sanchez sucks, and all Sanchez says is that Perry sucks, so okay, they BOTH SUCK! I don't want to have to try to figure out who sucks less than who. It doesn't really matter. I would rather vote for someone I actually like than vote for some guy that I don't like just because he has a better chance of winning. What if a bunch of us liberals quit voting for these fake liberals known as Democrats and start voting for the real liberals? Then maybe they WOULD have a chance of winning!

Why does America have to have a two-party system anyway? Not all countries do. Why not have a bunch to choose from?

At least let's have one party who is conservative and one who is liberal. The way it is now we have one party who is conservative, and another party who is conservative-but-maybe-not-quite-as-much. What kind of a choice is that?

Ah, thanks for the opportunity to rant, Wren. I feel better now.

American Hegemony ???? I Believe It Is The Best Country In The World Because We Th Oct 28th. at 3:12:16 pm UTC

The Sweeper (OK) Age: 48 - Email

I believe it is the best country in the world because we the people had a say in its creation.

To be allowed to do that is the greatest wish of most of the of oppressed peoples world.

As an American we are able to explore philosophical, political, and religious avenues that are not available for the majority of the planet.

Alison Harlow of Santa Cruz County, California (USA); America does not have plans to impose an American hegemony over the planet, America does not create little Americas around the world like the British Empire in the past, nor does America eclipse small boarder country and absorb there wealth.

What America Does do is; spread its wealth around the world, it encourages bad government to be good governments, and it promote democracy, self government, and self reliance. America does not force People to rule themselves it does however, under the right circumstances make it possible.

I am a very proud American, I thank the goddess everyday that I have been blessed to live here.

The Sweeper

A British Perspective Oct 28th. at 3:27:57 pm UTC

Bruce Fraser (Northumberland, north east England) Age: 42 - Email

At least you get to vote on the make up of your second house! Come the revolution we might, just might get rid of our House of Lords (& Ladies) ;o)

Our newspapers over on this side of the 'pond' reckon you're gonna kick off in Iraq on November 6th once the elections are done and dusted. What say you?


Vote Third Party! Oct 28th. at 4:25:01 pm UTC

Jason Pitzl-Waters (Urbana, IL) Age: 29 - Email - Web

As someone else commented, the current two-party system is mostly a sham. The voting record differences between the Republicans and the Democrats grows less definitive every year as they all crowd for the center. What kind of a choice is slightly to the left or slightly to the right? But come every election the liberal and progressive elements are told to toe the line, hold your nose and vote Democrat...OR ELSE!

Frankly, I don't respond to scare tactics that easily, and I'm tired of living in fear. Every truly reforming party in America's history started out as a third party underdog. What kind of democracy inpires apathy in half of the eligble voters and then tries to bully, intimidate and condescend to the other half?

Until the Democrats start to actually embrace *my* core values I won't vote for them. The lesser of two evils is still evil! I want to see issues like ecological wisdom actually on the platform for a change, I want to see real reform of corporate power, I want to see a budget that makes sense for the real working class. It is obvious the Democrats have lost their way and can't provide leadership on these issues.

I will be voting Green in the next election.

It's Ugly In Wisconsin Oct 28th. at 6:01:49 pm UTC

Seeker (Madison, Wisconsin) Age: 41 - Email

Here in Wisconsin, we have 4 candidates for govenor. Both the Democrat and the Replublican incumbent are so unbelievably dishonest. Lots of mud slinging, them broken promises to stop. Bingo parties for the mentally disabled, then showing them how to vote absentee. Taking families on vacation at state expense, then lying about who paid.

We do have Green party and Independent candidates, and though I have. in the past, been caught up in the old 'if you vote for the little guy, it's really a vote for the big guy' thing, I am really considering. If everyone who is disgusted with the current state of affairs voted for the little guy, we might have more Minnesotas.

I know lots of people who are refusing to vote altogether. I think that's a mistake. Too much is going on and it's so important to make your voice heard. Your vote has to be your voice.

Vote Third Party Oct 28th. at 6:35:00 pm UTC

lilith (los angeles) Age: 33 - Email

i so cant stress this enough-- third parties are where the actual democratic process is at. i usually vote green-- i have occasionally voted libertarian. but people, its not enough to vote. voting seems to lull a great many people into a false sense of participation. actually voting is one of the tiniest little things one can do. its like recycling cans-- that alone is not going to save the planet, but its a good thing to do. voting is admittedly disappointing the vast majority of the time. i admit every time i go to the polls i feel like im spitting against the wind. but i must be a masochist cuz it has yet to stop me.

california is in a state of total chaos. people who think that we are some kind of liberal bastion full of hippies and peaceniks clearly have never spent any time here. there are right wing forces encrouching upon our liberties all over the country and california is as in dire danger as any place else. part of this is because california is like every other prosperous place in the world-- we are so f***ing COMPLACENT. our complacency has led to our being overrun by the insurance industry and by taxes-- our schools are in shambles, the mainstream religious right is moving in on all manner of fronts-- we are in TROUBLE. we need to take this seriously. we need to do more than vote. we need to act. we need to protest, we need to spread actual news around, we need to present an alternative view to the world of what is really going on in this country. we need to work for peace. and it aint as easy as voting, but its probably more effective. every actual moment of political progress in this country was made actual by regular people. not politicians acting out of the goodness of their hearts, but by US.

"in god we trust" does not represent this country well. "e plurbis unim" does. trusting in "god" and politicians is an exercise in futility.

What About....... Oct 28th. at 9:21:49 pm UTC

Diama White (Wayne, MI USA) Age: 46 - Email

Ok Heathens, Pagans, Druids and the like: maybe it's time we got out of the cauldron and hoisted up a represenative to run in one of these here election things. We all seem to agree on the issues, but have no one to be the front runner for 'us'. Maybe we need a Pagan in the politics to mix things up a bit and to help keep the peace. I am not smart when it comes to politics, but all I seem to see and read are what I have deemed, 'hate commercials'. These are when you slam your opponent. Never mind what YOUR opponent has NOT done, but rather what have YOU done?
Diama White

Kleptocrat Or Good Christian? Oct 28th. at 10:53:29 pm UTC

Stacey Michael (New Orleans) Age: 34 - Email - Web

Indeed, since a very powerful right wing extremist politician like John Ashcroft, who were a States Attorney, Governor, and Senator. Who lost his re-election bid to a dead guy, and ultimately appointed to Attorney General of the United States by a squatter, became the most blatant show of munitions in an obvious agenda of war on the people. His nomination was a sign of the ‘just try and stop us’ mentality. The top cop, and head of the long arm of the ATF, FBI, and the 'defender' of the Constitution. Is also the strong arm of the Christian Cartel.
The people who knew him best, voted this man out of office. The opponent wasn’t even alive at the time of the election, but the Christian Cartel couldn’t let an experienced Zealot fall through the cracks of their pot.
The Christian Cartel admired him for, in only one six-year Senate term, he supported 16 efforts to amend our founding charter; several of that took direct aim at the Bill of Rights. In fact, none of the amendments he supported would have expanded individual rights, many of them instead represented obtrusive attacks on our most cherished freedoms.
Senator Ashcroft, favored school vouchers, which would force taxpayers to support religious beliefs and practices with which they disagree, finance discrimination in education and weaken the public schools.
It is distressing that Senator Ashcroft was willing to impose his religious beliefs on others through a variety of federal policies. He has consistently stated his support for government laws authorizing prayer in public school and he argues for laws that would help our nation return to "traditional values."
His style of ‘values’ smacks of the Ku Klux Klan’s hymnal of “Put the Bible back in our schools”. In December 1999, Ashcroft told the magazine Charisma, “It's said that we shouldn't legislate morality. Well, I think all we should legislate is morality.”
On the Senate floor he opined, "Just as in the larger culture prayer can play a unique role in dealing with violence, drugs and the other challenges in the schools ... Prayer is the answer. Prayer is not the problem."
After all, since the Christian faith isn’t strong enough to change the lives of people to be moral, then the only alternative is create laws that make criminals out of those who don’t emulate the life of Christ.
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.” –Thomas Jefferson
Over the objections of District of Columbia leaders, Ashcroft attempted to impose a pilot Church Tax voucher program in the District public schools. This would mean that schools that are religiously controlled would for the first time receive federal funds, yet would not be required to comply with federal civil rights laws. Ashcroft also voted to have the government endorse the posting of the Ten Commandments, notwithstanding Alabama State Court Orders that such displays violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment.
Ashcroft's incessant support for ‘Charitable Choice’, which puts a happy face on the issue of a Church Tax, is perhaps the most damaging of his positions in this area. Under current law, religious institutions must form non-sectarian affiliates to provide federally funded social services. But Senator Ashcroft pushed repeatedly - and at times successfully - to allow churches, mosques and synagogues to provide direct federally funded social services. Which is the defining element of a ‘Church Tax’.
‘Charitable Choice’ legislation could undermine the very civil rights laws that Attorney General Ashcroft must enforce. In fact, the ‘Charitable Choice’ legislation that Senator Ashcroft championed sought to exempt from civil rights laws - specifically Title VII, which prohibits employment discrimination of the religious organizations it would fund. For example, under ‘Charitable Choice’ proposals, organizations receiving taxpayer funding would be permitted to discriminate on the basis of pregnancy status, gender and sexual orientation as long as doing so was part of the religion's "teachings and tenets."
The boy George administration is also inline with that form of imposing law, saying on July 28, 2001 that the administration was going to be concentrating on “universally appreciated values”, which sounds like new ‘buzz’ words. In fact, a memo about the program was leaked to the media saying, “Avoid a traditional media roll-out of the program…Use creative media tactics to create a buzz.”
For what is universally appreciated among conservatives, like the tried and true tactic of censorship by encouraging news organizations to conduct what the administration calls an “increase reporting of good news.” Giving the wide speculation what “good news” actually means, could be stories of kittens in trees to the ‘Good News Bible’. Regardless, the administration feels the need to ‘encourage’ the media in a direction that it wants the public to see. When those who have control of government try to ‘encourage’, most often, those who are targeted for this, are ‘intimidated’.

Taken from my book "Religious Conceit" Page 147 Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

Following In The Goose-Steps Oct 28th. at 11:13:54 pm UTC

Stacey Michael (New Orleans) Age: 34 - Email - Web

Recently, Amnesty International’s annual report card of the Bush administration gave a flunking grade to its treatment of humanity. “The year 2001 witnessed a direct challenge to long accepted human rights standards by the very governments that campaigned for their establishment.” In other words, the Bush administration lied. They are not “Compassionate Conservatives”; they are human rights abusers, with crimes against humanity according to international law. If this were not the intention, then why would the Bush administration refuse to agree to an international court? Perhaps fear of standing trial, himself?

Without an international court, the Bush administration could very well legalize the use of the military against the citizens of the United States. A standard which is prohibited in the Constitution, even reinforced through the 125 year old Posse Comitatus Act. Which prohibits the use of civilian police to form military posse’s from the days of the Wild West. Interestingly, that’s the very Act in which the Bush administration wants to modify to combat terrorist threats from the “office of homeland security”.

What does this mean for the American people? If a terrorist threat is made against a particular city or town which holds some national security interest, you could have a standing military presents, or occupation, locking down the region to maintain order. A total blackout of the military operation in the media, telephone services and normal daily movement by the people to even go to work, or evacuate the area. Basically Marshal Law, without having to declare Marshal Law. Suspending the Constitution on nothing more than a frivolous tip.
Since the term “terrorist” is being used for everything under the sun for those with power, whether that is peaceful protests or a simple “boycott”, it’s quite certain that this power grab by the federal government will be used against innocent people. It’s amazing how fragile our “rights” actually are in this country.

Have you wondered how the German people of the 1930’s could have ever allowed Hitler to come to power? It appears we are about to receive an education.

The Christian Cartel has relentlessly tried to find validation for their ideology by lobbying heavily to have the Ten Commandments posted in every corner of public life. Trying to force everyone to become idolaters of the stone monument, as a true Pharisee would do. The latest version of this type of bill comes from Rep. Brian Kerns (R-Ind) in May of 2002, where the Ten Commandments would be hung on the walls of the legislature. When it was introduced in the previous February, Christian Cartel organizations such as the Christian Coalition, The Family Research Council and the Traditional Values Coalition alerted members to pressure their lawmakers to back it. “It’s the right thing to do,” said Steve Lutes, spokesman for Kerns.
Which only proves that Rep. Kerns believes that Idolatry and the forced worship of that idol is righteous and true.

The superstitions of the Christian Cartel can be now used against them, as their rhetoric often invokes “the power of Satan”, into the folds of politics. They are not small or weak, but they are clumsy. Just as they trip over their feet, so too with their words.

Today people understand reason, rather than superstition. If the Christian Cartel is devoid of reasonable excuses for their lunacy, then their directive will be considered psychotic in the public eye. Using actual reason instead of bombast and rhetoric point out the errors they promote as philosophically sound.

How do you do this? Inertia is the best example. Quite simply, the Bush administration proclaims faith as an ambiguous order upon the people. When the order is misunderstood, or not adhered to, then guns are used to clarify the administration’s point, an abuse of authority, which will eventually be seen as tyranny. After which, it wouldn’t matter how much faith the administration has, the end results would be the loss of power. If they are allowed through the hypothetical to try and prove a point, which is promoted as virtue, yet is not, their own actions place the noose around their necks. The lie exposes itself in practice, but you can be the one who sees the results before it manifests; proving the virtue of truth, by their error.

This will be our strength. As ignorance is not considered a virtue in these modern times, the false claim to virtue by the Christian Cartel must be exposed and exploited.

We should put on notice to the leadership, they are going to be held responsible for their actions or the actions of their followers. Just as Yasser Arafat is considered responsible for the actions of the terrorist network in Palestine, whether or not he actually has any control over them. So too, with the leadership of the Christian Cartel, as they promote the teaching that zealotry is acceptable, if not required, then the backlash against them should be just as passionate. Just as they have judged others, so too, should they be judged.

While it is true that this is a fight which is quite unappealing as non-violent as it is. It is a fight, none-the-less. You don’t win a fight by simply dodging the punches; you punch back as hard as you can, at the weakest point in your attacker; any woman’s self-defense class will tell you that. It’s high time that we give our attacker a good swift kick, right to the twins, metaphorically speaking.

This is not to prove who’s right or wrong in a theological sense, but in a physical sense. Self-preservation is as important to our ideology as is the ideology itself. The justification for the War on Terrorism is the same. But, instead of fighting against foreign terrorist, we are fighting against domestic terrorism. The cause is the same, but the effects are quite different.

If the Christian Cartel is successful, even temporarily, in changing our government over to a theocracy; the results will be the destruction of religion altogether. It only takes a couple of pricks to screw it up for the rest of us. Abuse of power is so very easy, destroying civilization has become even easier. Are we to allow these lunatics to destroy their selves and us, because they fanaticize the Apocalypse? Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

Politics & Poker Oct 29th. at 3:16:19 am UTC

Perrin (Hades) Age: 26 - Email

Merry Meet,

Some things we should be worried about, but this realy is not one that matters. In America, we have the illusion that our votes or opinoins matter, but over half of our population, myself included, refuses to vote, as none of the cannidates are different. We have a two party system, Democrats, and Republicans, due to this situation the people are stuck with the lesser of two evils. One party wants to start wars to stimulate job growth, the other wants to cut the benefits of freedom to produce jobs. There is an old saying, "If the bear and the wolf argue over you, it does not matter to you who won, because you will be in their belly.", the same applies to ANY two party system. The unstoppable force meets the immovable object. It is past time for their to be a third party that actually has a presecence in our government, and in my opinion it should be the Pagan community. If we are to become more than just a "Cult" then we should take a hand in politics. I know this is contrary to what I said last year at this time, but given that another Bush is in the White House, I think we should act. The route to power is a bumpy one, but if we all went the same direction we might get there, if we are disjointed by our own prejudices then we will never succeed.

The other question posed for people who live outside the USA unsettled me, perhaps Iam a unique individual, who went to both Canada, and Mexico, and realized that they have less say in the government affairs than we do. In Canada you and I could never own property, the government owns it all, and forces you and I to pay taxes on that land until we die. In Mexico they use prisoners as their "Policia", and have ellections that the state controls. As for other countries the political structure gets wors, not better. China has population controls which wipe out at least one third of their population annually. I could go on with the other attrocities of other countries, but I do not think that would not be fair, after all I'm just an American.

Bleesed Be,


Oops Oct 29th. at 3:21:06 am UTC

Perrin (Hades) Age: 26 - Email

Merry Meet again,

Iam human, therefore not infallable, when I typed "structure gets wors, not", I should have used "structure gets worse, not" sorry about that.


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VoxLinks: The Pagan Web: 8,000 Listings

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