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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,194,692  

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Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 109

Lurker/Post Ratio: 300 to 1

Question of the Week: 83 - 10/27/2002

Time to Talk Politics and Elections…

Eek! It’s the silly season again.

For U.S. Pagans/Heathens: The U.S. is holding mid-term elections Nov. 5th. Will you be voting? What are the issues that are most important to you? Do you vote by issue or by party? Do you have any thoughts on how it will turn out?

Non-U.S. Pagans/Heathens: The U.S. is woefully ignorant about your political processes. Please enlighten us. How many parties do you have? What are the names of the parties and what platforms do they represent? Do you have 'liberals' and 'conservatives'? How often do you vote? Do you elect representatives? How do you contact these representatives about your issues?

As always while talking politics, discussions can become heated. Please stay on the issues and do not resort to personal attacks. Further discussions should be taken to e-mail.

 Reponses:   There are 109 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


The Real Point Is... Nov 6th. at 3:52:00 pm UTC

Sati (Westminster, MD) Age: 24 - Email


I didn't vote yesterday. I was working. I might have beenable to get up early and go before work, but I wouldn't have a clue who to vote for. I want to vote for someone that will protect my right to worship as a pagan. I want to vote for someone that will stand up for me even if they don't agree with me. NOt many ppl fit that description in the whole world, fewer in politics.

But the point is, we all want to vote for someone that will stand up for our rights as pagans. We all want to vote for someone that will protect our right to worship... and the heathens' right to worship, and the rastafarians'. This is what we all want. But too many pagans are afraid of coming out of the closet. They want to know they are protected before they come out. They want to know that they won't lose their family, their jobs, etc. It's not gonna happen. Until we all stand up, until we make ourselves known, we will never have the protection we want.

Yes, yes, it's hard to come out. YOu're afraid. DO it anyway. Do you really enjoy living a double life? or Living a flat out lie? I came out yrs ago. My birth family won't speak to me. Family members are born and die and no one lets me know. I can't speak to my brother, to my nephews, to my cousins. I've lost 2 jobs. I've lost friends. I've had threats made against me (including being hunted by deprogrammers). But I did it. Others do it. And everytime one of us stands up and says "I'm Pagan, I vote, I live in your community," we make it easier for the next person. How many pagans are really out? 5 or 10%? IF everyone that reads this would come out tomorrow, more ppl would have the courage to come out. If 10,000 ppl came out this month, do you think that would give 10,000 more the strength to do it next month?

Our rights will never be protected until we stop hiding.


Lilith Nov 6th. at 3:56:20 pm UTC

Aedh Rua UiMhorrigu (New Richmond, WI) Age: 36 - Email


it's not a matter of freaking out and running. I have been thinking about leaving this country for more than a decade, now. For most of my adult life I have felt like a foreigner in the United States, a country which just doesn't share my basic values. Over and over, my friends have prevailed on me, saying things like "it isn't perfect anywhere else, either", and "there is hope; things will get better".

Well, things aren't going to get better. This election reflects the fact that the American people have chosen the values of right-wing morons, and this is a sincere choice. To stay is to attempt to make the American people into what they aren't.

I don't want to keep beating my head against the wall of the American national character. Better to take my skills, my knowledge, and as many other people as I can, and put them at the service of some nation which is closer in its basic national soul to myself. I tried political activism. I tried voting. I have tried arguing with people, and pretending to agree with them in hopes of gradually reaching them. Well, there ain't nothing to reach. So, now, I'll try voting with my feet. It isn't much, but it is all that I have.


Now Now, Irusan. Nov 6th. at 4:08:51 pm UTC

Anneka (Nevada, USA) Age: 24 - Email


Come on, dearie. Just because you disagree is no reason to mock the rest of us. Let me explain to you what happens when you disarm a rational country.
In England and Australia, two enlightened countries who's gun laws are now the most restricive in the world, the average citizen is no longer allowed to own guns. Not for hunting, sport, or personal protection. So obviously, everyone should feel very safe now.
However, the murder rate in England has gone up over 300 percent since the new firearm legislation passed. Firearm crimes have also increased exponentially. You see, when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. Criminals prefer their victims unarmed.
In the Columbine tragedy, the guns did not walk themselves into the school and start shooting. The crime was committed by unstable youths who felt there would be no accountability. They did not buy their firearms from a reputable, law abiding gun store. Do you think, if they had no access to firearms, that the crime would not have happened? Is it impossible for someone to kill another human with a knife, or a club?
It's ok if you don't want to exercise your Second Amendment rights. But everything that we have as citizens, every single right, must be cherished and protected. If you take one, you take all. I will defend those rights for you, as will every other responsible, freedom-loving firearms afficionado in here.
If you mock us and call us names because we take our Constitutional amendments seriously, you make yourself no berrer than the people who mock us for our religious beliefs. We're all different, accept that. We are not a cookie-cutter nation, nor should we be. I do not condem you, and I expect the same respect from you.
Besides, if you were the victim of a crime, and your neighbor had a firearm and was able to protect you, would you want them to?

Anneka (former left-wing, liberal gun scaredy-cat, turned middle-of-the-road rightish-wing gun nut.)


Pax Nov 6th. at 4:49:53 pm UTC

Irusan (Bastrop, TX) Age: 53 - Email


I did not say that I was opposed to the Second Amendment. I just said I think folks that love guns are a bit nutty. I suppose that the Second Amendment is an unfortunate necessity. I agree that
if we are to keep our Bill of Rights, we must keep all of them. I do doubt whether the Founding Fathers foresaw the extent to which firearms ownership would become the fetish it is with some people, or the societal problems it would cause. I rather doubt that your facts about England are
accurate - no time to check them now - but I do know that the gun violence in England, Australia,
Canada and Japan combined is a tiny, tiny fraction of what it is in the US.
I know the drill - "you need guns to protect you from intruders who will kill
your family" - etc.etc. As a matter of fact I do keep a few weapons around the house - they are not
firearms, which have to be unlocked, loaded, etc. Unless I were to just keep the old big iron on my hip, or the musket loaded on the wall. I did have a friend who kept his loaded .44 magnum on the back of his chair, insisting that his small children were trained not to mess with it. I understand that after a near tragedy he has changed his mind radically. I really don't know personally of anyone whose home was invaded and whose family was threatened by crazed murderers
in "In Cold Blood" style. I do know of one woman who was murdered at home by being stabbed - she
lived three blocks over. I suppose a Bushmaster loaded and ready by the door might conceivably have
prevented this, or not. But I do read ALL the time of gun violence - it is mostly gang members
in drive-bys, fathers killing daughter's suitors or vice versa, stepsons killing stepfathers, robbers and store owners killing one another - in other words, gun owners killing gun owners, for
the most part. By the way, I have nothing whatever against hunters who hunt responsibly and eat
their kill. I do think that what passes as hunting in some instances is incredibly sick.


The Guy Who Wanted To Leave Nov 6th. at 5:04:50 pm UTC

Ariotanos Iuranantatios (nowhere, USA) Age: 35 - Email


might want to check out this yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pagan_pied_piper

Pagan Pied Piper is for Pagans who are really serious about the idea of changing countries, not because we afraid of the Christians, but because we want to find a country we can really believe in. It's only a beginning, but I think we need to start making plans. The United States will never be home to us, no matter how many amendments we keep. We will always be powerless strangers here, no matter how hard we try for acceptance. Let's find a nation we can believe in!


200 Million Guns In America And Counting... Nov 6th. at 5:30:13 pm UTC

Mica (Lexington, KY) Age: 48 - Email


Will there ever be enough guns in America? England up 300%? That brings their gun deaths for last year up to a total of near 70 and Canda was what? a couple of hundred?. America racked up over 11,000. The SNIPER only killed a dozen or so. BUT wow did he get 'timely coverage'. Gun finger printing would have finger'd that killer three weeks earlier.

Guns don't kill people... PEOPLE WITH GUNS kill people. 70% of the gun deaths in America are NOT related to criminals or crime, they are family squables with one of those 200 million guns close by. Little kids find them all the time and play 'shot em' up' just like daddy does. As families loose their jobs or are forced to take even lower paying ones, life at home will get even more tense.

No worries though, the radical right now has control of the house, Senate, presidency and (arguablly) the supreme court itself. They KNOW you love your guns. Your guns are safe (like the democrats would dare to even try to control guns in America - They didn't in the 2000 election but the bush folk sure wanted you to think so - it worked then, It worked again just yesterday. -- Keep your guns and 'trust us'.)

I think guns for hunting is OK... but I wonder what percentage of gun owners actually DO hunt. Of all the gun owners I know, not one of them actually hunts.

I don't know any women that is into guns.

The 2nd amendment gives you the right to bare arms. You have guns in case the goverment get's out of line ... That made alot of sense in 1776. BUT don't forget that (these days) YOU have the small guns and they have the BIG guns, they are more organized and can blow away anything (from just about any distance) you hide with your gun behind. -- If it ever comes down to the us citizens vs. the us military... I say drop the bomb, and put us all out of our misery.

America will continue to allow it's people to own millions of guns. I don't see either political party daring to change that in near future, but to hear the NRA folk tell it, you could lose all your guns any day now. "The democrats want to take your guns, raise your taxes and NOT protect you from the boggie man" - I can see WHY the Religious right and the Radical Right are such good bedfellows. They have fear mongering down to a sport. and one that they quite good at parlaying to victory.

Yesterday they won again.


Jump Ship? Notta Shot Nov 6th. at 5:36:28 pm UTC

Stephanie Stanton (New Orleans, LA) Age: 47 - Email


I will not abandon what our Founding Fathers and Founding Mothers fought so hard to achieve at great personal risk to themselves. I do believe the sentence for traitors against the Crown has death, so therefore they did what they did with great risk. They were religiously diverse and they knew of the tyranny of a Church-State both Protestant and Catholic. I will not give up without a fight, I will not give up period, and I refuse to go back in the broom closet. Actual Samhain is tomorrow and I would highly suggest that we call on the spirits of the Founding Fathers for courage, strength, and wisdom.


Bowling For Columbine Was Awesome. Nov 6th. at 5:37:33 pm UTC

Kelly (Battle Creek, MI) Age: 36 - Email


I wish my bank gave away a free rifle with new checking accounts. I am soooo jeleous.


I Won't Run... But I Will Be Hinding Nov 6th. at 5:44:24 pm UTC

Luna Che' (Back in the Bcloset.) Age: 22 - Email


and hoping that america comes to it's senses. Sheesh!! Good one Mica! - Yes, the republicans are smart enough to let them keep their guns, it appears to be what they want the most. cold steal a go go. Huh... Boys and their guns.


Goddess Bless The USA Nov 6th. at 5:53:58 pm UTC

Irusan (Bastrop, TX) Age: 53 - Email


Hmm, I suppose "liberal scardy-cat" is not ridicule? Actually, the knee-jerk reaction that I must be against the Second Amendment because I am not enchanted by guns, and the liberal use of the epithet "liberal" is a sure sign, to me, that a person has been brainwashed by right-wing propaganda. By the way, I deplore the co-opting and perversion of the label "Conservative" by
what are actually the fascist right wing. "Conservative" to me implies someone who cherished and
preserves the wisdom of the past, someone who is careful not to waste, either money in frivolous schemes or the bounties of Nature. Those right-wing fascists who are now calling themselves
"conservatives" are the exact opposite. They believe in raping the Earth for profit, oligarchy,
aristocracy, conspicuous consumption, religious and political intolerance, a disrespect for the
views of the Founding Fathers.

I do believe that G.W. Bush and his circle knew that the suicide bombings of 9-11-01 were going
to happen, and that they let them happen to achieve the political heft that they displayed yesterday. No, I don't have "proof". If I did, I would be doing other things than writing to
the Witchvox postings. It was a spontaneous intuition the moment I saw the towers fall, now
bolstered by hundreds of pieces of information that I have synthesized right-brain style. Things
from the Vreeland memo "Let one happen, stop the rest", to tiny things like knowing that GW would never tolerate the ridicule he was getting on the forgotten TV show "That's My Bush",the use of subliminal advertising in the 2000 campaign ads, the discrepancies of Bush's statements of his whereabouts, and hundreds of pieces of information in between. I think Bush is a traitor. I am very depressed that a majority of Americans have fallen for his lies, and amazed that so many think he is such a "fine, upstanding man" (no bj's in the oval office, eh? Ask the
hookers in Austin if GW is so pure.) The sight of Bush "consoling" the victims on the anniversary of 9-11 was one of the most obscene sights in my life experience, believing what I do about his
complicity.

But I still believe in America. I still think there is hope. Watergate was found out. Iran-Contra's story has not been told, neither has the Kennedy assassination, but the official lies are being questioned. It may take the rest of my lifetime for the truth about 9-11 to come out, but already others are saying what I thought for a while I was alone in seeing.
The reaction of the American people to 9-11 was beautiful and courageous for the most part (except for the few attacks on Muslims, Sikhs, etc.) There was a true selfless patriotism shining through, and selfless acts that showed the real, heroic manhood and womanhood in great and small ways. I loved this brief time, even though I knew the people were being had. I believe the truth will come out some day, although we are no doubt in for some very bad times until that day.

As to gun nuts, I am a bit concerned that if my address were to get out, some militant "patriot"
might come and blow me away, just so he could say "shoulda had a gun."


Women And Guns Nov 6th. at 6:02:22 pm UTC

Anneka (Nevada, USA) Age: 24 - Email


So, women aren't into guns?
I'm a 24 year old caucasian woman. I am married with no children. I shoot. I hunt. I eat what I kill. I have been professionally trained in firearm use, and have taken the requisite courses necessary to get my concealed carry permit.
My mother shoots.
My grandmother used to shoot, when she could still walk.
My husband was in the Army for 10 years, when he got out, he taught his mother to shoot.
My father, my stepfather, my aunts and uncles shoot. My brothers shoot. The whole time I was growing up, my parents (both law enforcement officers) had firearms in the house. I was taught how to use them when I was 8 years old. In my whole, gun toting family, we have NEVER had a firearm related accident. Not one. Don't believe me, I'll happily give my personal info to anyone who asks, and you can check the public records.

My question is, why do the people who are anti-gun act so much more HOSTILE than the pro-gunners. Go back, look at the messages on this thread. Myrrdin, Lilith, Tink and I. We haven't overtly attacked anyone. Yet we're getting all this anti-gun rhetoric saying we're dangerous and crazy and implying that we're stupid.

You're got your hobbies, I've got mine. Don't try and blame me and my ilk for all the evils in the world. Go and check the statistics for violent crime in the UK. I guarantee you'll be amazed. And kids, please, PLEASE check your facts before you dispute us. I've been wrong plenty of times in my life, but on this one I am right.

And for the record, ALL politicians suck. It's the nature of the beast.


By The Way Nov 6th. at 6:27:16 pm UTC

Anneka (Nevada, USA) Age: 24 - Email


I'm sure no one really cares, but I have to get a couple more things off my chest.
Irusan, I agree with you about GWB. I think he knew, I think he also knew that war would boost his approval rating (and it has!) I think, for the most part, he's slimy. As slimy as Bill ever was. I don't like that he has a history of DUI's. I hate the big-money politics. I didn't vote for him, and I was devestated when "Thet's My Bush" was cancelled. And I wasn't calling YOU a liberal scaredy-cat. I'm saying I used to identify MYSELF as a liberal scaredy cat. I will be the first in line to tell you I'm far from perfect. I'm kind of a dork, and I'm as paranoid as they come. Of course, I didn't start getting paranoid until I actually had to deal with a stalker myself, but I digress.
Politics is a hot-button with all of us. I can see that we are all feeling really unhappy and disillusioned with our current government. The reason the NRA and people like me are the way we are, is we take solace in the fact that we DO have this way of defending ourselves. If we practice this safely and it makes us feel better, why should that bother you?
Eh. I keep telling myself to just leave this whole topic alone, it's giving me heartburn, but damnit, I can't stop myself!


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