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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,241,992  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 258

Lurker/Post Ratio: 127 to 1

Question of the Week: 104 - 3/24/2003

Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq?

Many people were initially for or against the possibility of a war in Iraq. Now that it is a reality and troops are on the ground, have you changed your mind or your position on the war?

Do you think that anti-war protests should cease? Do you think that an even greater divide has opened up between those who hold differing ideologies?

Do you think that the suspension of certain civil liberties for security reasons is appropriate during war time? Do YOU feel safer? Will the world be more secure because of this action?

What – if anything – concerns you the most about the war in Iraq?

 Reponses:   There are 258 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Still Opposed Mar 25th. at 10:04:06 pm UTC

Rose (Boston, MA) Age: 25 - Email


I'm still opposed to the military action in Iraq. I'm still opposed to Bush. I feel more strongly agains the "war" now that fighting has broken out. Does this mean I don't "support the troops?" No. I want them brought home now. I don't believe the States has any business over there.


A Few More Things To Say... Mar 25th. at 10:05:06 pm UTC

Sarah (Massachusetts) Age: 14 - Email


first of all, Maleciah, thank you for your response earlier. it's very reasurring knowing someones reading what i have to say and caring enough to respond.

secondly, Todd i partially do agree with your opinion on the Untied States government but i also agee with Maleciah. Every government lies or twists the truth in some way. That's what politics is. Sometime's im ashamed to live in America because of the truth to this. Sometime's it seems like our country wants to rule the world. It's understandable we want to make the world peaceful, I'm sure many people would want that. I am seriously ashamed to say we act the way we do. We take everything we have forgranted. Think about the poor kids in countries like Iraq who are sitting there with absolutely nothing and now there are battles going on in their backyards.

As American citizens I think we should BE more the way we ACT. We pretend we're wonderful amazing people. Perhaps other countries will look up to us if we give a little thanks for what we can have. I suppose i should be happy the fighting isn't going on here.

Let's all be thankfully whether we live in America or not. be thankful were just alive. stop fighting over this war crap... its dumb

Sarah


I Am Not High Up In Anything Nor Do I Work For Bush.LOL Mar 25th. at 10:16:10 pm UTC

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email


I thought I made this clear but it has been alot of posts ago.:-) I am not a "high up mucky muck" I don't work for the UN. I don't work for bush or any governing factor nor do I have delusions of grandure nor am I trying to persuade anyones opinion (or religious affiliation for that matter) HA HA (thanks for the laugh) . But I am doing something that I can see alot of people NOT doing. and that is doing something constructive with other groups already tied to the UN. I never once claimed that I was a person of influence in the bush administration or the UN and I never once implied Anything to suggest otherwise, so I don't see your delusions of grandure comment applying to me, but I do know what you mean.. I am not liberal, I am a far cry from conservative. I am just another pagan that wants to get involved in the world around me. can you blame me? these are hard times and tensions are running hot (not excluding myself mind you) and I am wanting to make a difference by expressing what I feel. But I appriciate all of your guys efforts and comments in this forum! I like hearing others opinions to as long as they include facts with it and if it is something that is known to be contested, back it up with the source you got it from. Wren we love you!! you must have infinite patience with us to let this debate go as far as it has.


Response To RHI Mar 25th. at 10:32:17 pm UTC

slackfoomaster (Oregon) Age: 29 - Email


To RHI:

Well kid you havent seen to much in your wise 20 years. America is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to protecting the rights of other countries.Everyone expects the U.S. to protect those who are weaker and when we do we get alot of crap for it and if we let the countries fend for them selves we catch more crap for not helping those who are in need and cant help them selves. So no matter what the U.S. does it will never be good enough to make everyone happy. So till you know what it is like to fight for and in another country please get off the soap box...THANK YOU....


Malaciah Mar 25th. at 10:58:25 pm UTC

Night Wind (USA) Age: 2500 - Email


You wrote:

HA HA (thanks for the laugh)

Actually, based on that response alone, I would peg you as a fundie infiltrator, albeit one operating on your own, and not part of any organization, for the good reason that no such _organized_ inflitration exists. Your response to my provocation was a bit over the top. I made the provocation to see how you would respond, and to determine from it who you might be. I would say it worked rather well. Or, to quote Shakespeare, "methinks thou dost protest too much".

Based on your other comments, forgive me, but I must simply disregard your points of view on cost and the likelihood of building Iraqi democracy. I am quite sure that lots of people will tell you, or any of the conquerers, how grateful they are that you have given them the chance for peace by conquering them. This "goodwill" will last until your back is turned, or until they sense weakness. Then you will learn how utterly different your values are from theirs.

In the end, the war is not so much unwinnable as the peace. The United States can beat Iraq, easily, and so far, the battle is indeed still easy. But, after that, it will be trapped by the rivalries among Iraqi factions into a long, draining, and (most of all) expensive occupation. The cost of actually rebuilding Iraq will prove far more than the American public is willing to pay, and, in alienating the world, Bush has closed off that source of funding. During the occupation the American military, already fatally overextended, will be dangerously weak. This will almost certainly offer a temptation to somebody.

After that, the world will go to hell gradually, but unavoidably.

In less than five years, the United States will be a crippled giant, economically paralyzed, withdrawing from world affairs, and losing faith in its basic institutions. The fundie right-wing, discredited by the failed Bush administration, and by its association with Middle Eastern religious violence, will be a political has-been that will be retreating from the American mainstream, radicalizing, and fusing with the Neo-Confederate movement. Having lost faith in themselves, their core institutions, and in their religion, the American people will be ripe for anyone who can offer meaning to their lives, and give them something to believe in and trust.

I wonder if Pagans could find in themselves the core values, the inner strength, the ability to mobilize themselves, that might allow them to take advantage of such an opportunity? After all, Pagans have much to offer this world. If Pagans can develop the ability to appeal to the millions of quite ordinary Americans who are looking for an identity, then they will absorb those people into a movement that provides life with as much meaning as most forms of fundie Christianity, but does it in ways which are democratic, non-authoritarian, sexually egalitarian, and ecologically sustainable. Such an expanded and activist Paganism would be able to chart a new course for itself, neither left not right wing, but dedicated to building a sustainable, humane, and spiritual, yet essentially tolerant and inclusive society.

Is this not a dream worth living?


Yes It Is A Dream Worth Living For. Mar 25th. at 11:11:34 pm UTC

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email


I too would like to think that the US is going to be the only one to be involved in Iraq's rebuilding. that much oil will not go unnoticed and everyone including frnace will havea piece of the pie. sadly the americans will be paying for alot of it but there are also other financial avenues that you did not mention. about as many as diplomatic options that we had before bush made them fall to pieces with his "cowboy politics" as some have said.

And as far as me being a fundie infiltrator? that is just laughable. I have sponsored three covens in different states across the US and have not stepped into a x-tain church since high school. Believe what you want I am fine with you thinking I am a x-tian. I have to admit though, if you think I am a x-tian infultrator into a pagan web board, you REALLY need to check yourself and your provocation was merely an attempt to use psychology. a feeble one at that.


Not So Feeble Mar 25th. at 11:53:51 pm UTC

Night Wind (USA) Age: 2500 - Email


Hands shaking are they, old boy? that would explain the double post, not so?

I notice that you make many claims about yourself that simply cannot be backed up, by the very nature of this board. This tells me a great deal about the nature of your claims, and their merit, or lack of same.

I have presented hard statistics in support of my arguments, which can be verified by just a bit of googling. If you go back through the 200-odd posts in the news story on the initial invasion, the "post your thoughts" section, you will see that I was able to figure out, from the rather poorly-censored news-reports, exactly where the Anlgo-American forces were, where they were going, and what problems they were facing, or soon would face.

This isn't because I am brilliant. It's because the facts are out there, and the habit of a free media is still so ingrained that it hard to cover those facts up, though even the American media can learn the habits of discretion required to live under a tyranny, if Bush is in office long enough. Those facts, plus a bit of reason, will allow any reasonably intelligent person to figure out what the general direction of events will be. We, meaning anyone who cares to find out, know what the cost of rebuilding Iraq will be, or, at least, the rather wide range of claims. We know how badly the government is in deficit. We know what economic conditions are, and how likely, therefore, loans will be, even for governments. We are also aware of Bush's habit of unilateralism and diplomatic stupidity, not to beat around the Bush on the issue, so we can guess how successful he will be at getting foreign help in Iraq.

Likewise, the total number of US Army and Marine divisions, and their rough areas of deployment, are easily available knowledge. The enlistment problems faced by the US military has been discussed by talking heads for some time, now. The cost of building a division, assuming that the men are available, is well-known, as is the time it normally takes to get one ready. Based on this, it doens't take a genius to figure out that the US military is in serious trouble: it will need at least six to nine months to build divisions to cover the military assets needed in Iraq, assuming the political will and fiscal means exist, which they likely don't.

The conclusions that follow are simply supported by logic and fact:

1. An intelligent opponent will attack when America is weak
2. Some opponents of America are intellegent.
3. Therefore, some opponents of America will attack when America is weak.

1. In military terms, overextension produces weakness.
2. The US military is now overextended, and will be for the next six months to several years.
3. Therefore, the US military is now weak, and will be for the next six months to several years.

1. An intelligent opponent knows when his enemy is weak; that's what military intelligence is for.
2. Some of America's opponents are intelligent
3. Therefore, some of America's opponents know that America is now weak.

1. Some opponents of America will attack when they know America is weak.
2. They know America is weak now, and will be for about six months.
3. Therefore, we can expect those enemies to attack now, or within about six months.

1. America's society is severely stressed by costly, unpopular, and divisive wars.
2. The present war, and the ones to come, are manifestly costly, unpopular, and divisive.
3. Therefore, American society is coming under stress, and will be continue to be stressed.

1. Stressed societies provide fertile recruiting grounds for alternative movements, like Paganism.
2. American society is now stressed, and will likely be that way for a while.
3. Therefore, America provides an even more fertile recruiting ground for Paganism than it did.

From all of this, I conclude that a war which makes America weaker and encourages its enemies to attack, is a foolish war. However, since America is determined to be follish, and since its foolishness can benefit Paganism, by all means let's take advantage of OUR opportunity. As I wrote earlier, we are not a cult, and our growth, to those who willingly choose our ways, is a benefit to everyone. American society could use more people, like Pagans, who are relatively democratic, non-authoritiarian, feminist, ecologically conscious, and mellow enough to avoid committing too many crimes.

To put it another way, Pagans can no longer prevent the war. We can, however, help America recover from the damage that Dubya is inflicting on it, and we should do so.


HYPOCRITES Mar 26th. at 6:12:52 am UTC

elf (england) Age: 23 - Email


I don't know how anyone can call themselves a pagan and support the Bush government who are all out to destroy the planet which we (supposedly) hold sacred. (Anyone who can defend this please get in touch) .
Bush even refused to sign the Kyoto agreement to stop global warming. America accounts for 25% of pollution which is causing global warming and Bush is refusing to stop. Then you believe his lies about this war. How gullible are you?
elf


What The Hell? Mar 26th. at 7:20:39 am UTC

Sarah (Massachusetts) Age: 14 - Email


to ANYONE who is dissing the Christian religion all I can say is I'm appauled to see that here. I have been raised Christian but a few years ago decided I was interested in Paganism. My parents, my sister, and my best friend are all Christians so I think what you're saying is absolutely HORRIBLE.

The fact that you're all much older than me and both directly and indirectly saying things about these people is horrible. It's plain immature. Think for a minute - yes, some (notice not all, SOME) Christians will say bad things about Pagan beliefs, but look what you're doing. You all should be ashamed.

My mother is a Christian, yet she doesn't support Bush in the least. She wants the war to happen so we can find Saddam but that she can't stand Bush. Does that mean she isn't a Christian even though shes been raised that way her entire life? Hmm.. it makes me wonder

i think ive been misinformed by some of these posts, perhaps you werent saying such things about Christianity but everything ive read offends me so much.


Protestors Mar 26th. at 8:11:57 am UTC

columbine (NY) Age: 38 - Email


Seeing Amber in Portland's post prompted me to post this here as well. If you are on other forums that I am on, you've seen it there, too.

Now, I am not on either side of this issue. However --- what *I* personally have witnessed and experienced is the following:

1. I am a military spouse. I do not appreciate having lunch with my husband (who is in uniform) and minding my own business, accompanied by my 2 1/2 year old daughter, and being harrassed by protestors. Let me let ya in on a little secret --- my husband does *not* wield any power. Hell, he doesn't even wield a weapon. He is a medical evacuations pilot.

2. I am a military spouse. I do *not* appreciate being harrassed and spit on by anti-war protestors -- especially in the presence of my 2 1/2 year old daughter -- while going shopping. why am I a target? Simply because every vehicle we own has a little "military base" sticker on it.

3. Friends are medical personnel recruiters. Who are the morons setting up information appointments only to bring in a huge group of friends to harrass the poor guy about the war? HEllO!!?? You freakin' morons -- which part of "little guy does not wield any political power" don't you get???

Now, do you think these above things are unique to this conflict? NO! I can attest that 32-33 years ago -- when I was 5 or 6 -- the exact same things happened to me and my mom. Oh, yes, I remember it and it has been a strong memory.

All these events and more have caused me to really hate protestors --- because they have no freakin' clue, apparently, who holds power. And I have absolutely no positiion in this conflict except to support my guys and gals who are involved. And, you know, I saw some dumb ass post on another forums about a group of "feminists" sending in painted tampons to the White House in protest. Oh, yeah, *that* will certainly get your message across in a positive and mature manner. Oh, yeah, *someone's* gonna sit up and take notice; "Hey, Mr. President, we have 3, 000 red-painted tampons here in the Oval Office. Will you stop the war now? Please? If you don't, next time well send real ones!"

Now, yes, I know someone is going to pipe up and say there are pro-war protestors who are being just as big of a**holes --- but you know...honestly...I have yet to encounter them -- even when wearing my pagan and peace sign earrings and crap. Hey, they're a fashion -- not political-- statement for the present climate. I have no one coming up and patting me on the back telling me, "good job" for supporting my husband or giving any pro-war sentiments. I don't want them. My hsuband is doing his job ---- he volunteered; he knew what he could possibly get into. he isn't stupid. The only encounters I have are from hostile anti-war protestors.


A Link To A Protester, And A Word For Nightwind Mar 26th. at 9:20:41 am UTC

Rick (Wisconsin, USA) Age: 31 - Email


This is a fascinating little clip from a radio show, please listen if you have the time and tell me what you think, by email or by posting

http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

Nightwind, First, if our enemies were intelligent, they would realize that we are not over-extended militarily. Most of the combat power of the US military is in the National Guard, which has not had any major combat formations mobilized yet. Second this war is supported by, last time I saw, 70% + of the US population. Third, one of America's strengths is that we are a tolerant society, and pagans are as welcome as methodists or lutherans. Fourth, you say the US military is weak right now. I am having trouble not laughing right now and it is messing up my typing. The US military is in the middle of the most rapid armored advance in the history of warfare, General Heinz Guderian doesn't have squat on us!!!!!!!! This advance has cost us an unprecedentedly low number of casualties. We are brushing aside the most powerful formations of the Iraqi military which have been reduced to breaking the laws of war, dressing in US and UK uniforms, and using their own people as human shields. This is the strongest military in the history of the world. This is not even a majority of our combat divisions. We still have the 4th ID on ships, the 2nd ID in Korea, the 1st Cavalry is still in Texas. We have plenty of combat power left.

And just one more thing, Anti-war protests cost $900, 000 in police overtime a day. Couldn't that money be better spent on social programs? Giving food to the poor, or teaching kids to read would be a better use of that money if you ask me. Maybe the protestors should change their tactics so the police don't need so many officers present to maintain order?

If I don't respond immediately, it is because I am out of town. Have a good day and please send some positive energy to our men and women in harms way in Iraq. Link to More info related to this post -- HERE


This Pagan's Personal View.... Mar 26th. at 10:54:59 am UTC

Lugh Branwen (Brooklyn, N.y.) Age: 34 - Email


Well, After reading one individual's post saying that No REAL pagan would support the war or President Bush...I had to address it.
I support the war because of My interpretation of the Rede: An it Harm none, Do as thou wilt.
Saddam Hussien has commited Horrible attrocities against His own people, His neighbors, and anyone else He can reach. Last time I checked, Atrocities Equalled HARM. It is the responsibilty of the Strong to protect the weak from Evil. For Us to Not finally get rid of this Monster is a violation of Everything we Hold sacred; Life and freedom. If you do not agree, ask an Iraqi who emigrated to escape the Horrific government of Saddam. Who is to say that We are not the Agent of Karma to enforce the will of the Universe in THIS PARTICULAR situation?
That the Iraqi People should be free to pursue their Lives without fear of Goons and rapists busting down their door. Have I changed My Mind about this war?..the answer is NO, Definitely NOT. Saddam poses a dire threat to anyone who wishes to live free of a Sadistic regime. Free from terror.
Free to practice OUR faith as we see fit.
If we truly believe in Love, If we really respect Life, we will do everything in Our power to Pray and Do Work for those that stand in the gap between the Evil and the Innocent.
PERIOD.
Whether you like GW or not, whether you agree with His policies, This war is about doing what is right, and doing what should have been done years ago. Unless of course, you enjoy getting your oil from someone that kills His own people Just because they are there.
If you can live with that...do fill up your gas tank, and Keep protesting.
Blessed Be.
Lugh Branwen.


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