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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,826,776  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 153

Lurker/Post Ratio: 214 to 1

Question of the Week: 95 - 1/19/2003

How Do You Feel About War?

‘Yes I'm talking about this war dance/ A patriotic romance./And I know all you poets/Have seen it all before…’ – Colin Moulding, XTC

Colin: ‘The words were originally prompted by the Falklands War in 1982. But it was too much on one piece of history. Then along came the Persian Gulf War and I put the revised lyrics to a new piece of music. It was time to bring war out of the closet again.’


And again, it would seem. How do you, from your own spiritual perspective or tradition, view and/or cope with the ideals and realities of war and armed conflict?

Do your political leanings influence how you feel?

Do you have a difficult time explaining/defending/advocating your position to other Pagans or Heathens? Non-Pagans?

 Reponses:   There are 153 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


I Hate It Jan 23rd. at 12:08:21 pm UTC

Myrddin (wisconsin) Age: 55 - Email


I hate war. I've seen it, something many of you have NOT. However, wishing the world was a fluffy bunny place full of love and tolerance just isn't very realistic. It always amazes me that such a large segment of our society actually believes that. They wouldn't walk through some of our neighborhoods at night because they know thugs exist who would put a bullet in their head for the five bucks in their wallet, or rape the jogger just out of hatred and because they can. Yet, they seem to think no thugs exist beyond our borders. For crying out loud, there are NATIONS who conduct themselves as thugs. Saddam is one of them. Hatred exists.

We have the strongest, best equipped, and most professional military in the world. When Saddam and others say we are weak, do you really think they are talking about our military? They are talking about our society. They see the protests, they see the fluffy bunnies, and they think we are stupid, weak, and without the moral character to defend ourselves or risk our comforts for any principle including self defense. That gives them incentive to continue their thuggery.

Saddam, it turns out, was mere months away from having the bomb the last Gulf War. It's been over ten years. Do you really think he isn't close again? What oil fields did we keep last time? We could have just stayed in Kuwait and thumbed our noses at the world. Who was strong enough to take those oil fields away from us once we were there? You think Osama Bin Laden is the ONLY thug in the world? You think he's the only one who hates us? I guess you have forgotten how people all over the Middle East danced in the streets and partied when our citizens were burning up in the Towers, jumping from the windows, and being crushed when they fell. That's what Saddam calls our weakness.......our short sightedness and forgetfulness and our stupidity and inability to recognize the world for the place it is.

Lenin and Stalin called such folks "usefull idiots". People who through self delusion can't believe the reality and work against their own country to the benefit of those who would destroy their country.

Atta Boy Odin! Those are OUR sons and daughters. May they come home safe. They hate war too. Nobody who has seen it does NOT hate it. But they love their neighbors and their country more than their hatred for war and their wanting to just live life. Unlike some others.............


On The Fence Jan 23rd. at 12:26:54 pm UTC

Bruce Fraser (North east England) Age: 42 - Email


As much as I hate war, what do you do about nutters like Saddam? Methinks there's nowt to stop us heading over the top again. Oh, how I feel for the mothers of the bairns that're gonna lose their lives soon.

May the Goddess watch over them...

Bruce


I Have Many Unanswered Questions Jan 23rd. at 1:01:35 pm UTC

Heather (Northern Virginia) Age: 35 - Email


If asked about the situation with Iraq, I do not have enough information to assess the immediate need for military action. My opinion would be missing key ingredients and that would not be wise to share such a thing. Yet, by the same token, I do not have enough information to lend my trust and support to any one side. I have even less trust for those who would use manipulation to sway
my loyalties one way or another. I have the courage to patiently seek the answers and to remember that if I can not maintain my own peace then I will never be able to encourage it in others. I know my statements do not address the topic of war on a grand scale. The topic is too vast for me to do justice to here. I hope nothing I have said causes anyone to become upset because there is enough of that energy around already. Perhaps, I am naive but I do still hang on to hope for a non-violent solution on the global front.

Heather


If Britain Is The Place To Be........... Jan 23rd. at 1:11:28 pm UTC

Sourisette (Southern UK) Age: 73 - Email


Killing people never solved anything. The only way to resolve by violence would be to put Saddam and George Dubya in a room alone and let them fight it out. But if forces must be employed, since we are apparently willing hosts to asylum seekers, many of whom have proved unreliable, would it not be effective to offer them sanctuary only if they prove their good intent by putting on British uniform to go and fight against those who threaten the country they wish to make their home? Our men have already fought one war in the middle east and a conflict in the Falklands. Let these people show how brave and determined they are, - and they will have the chance to return "home" heroes.


Yes For Military Action.......... Jan 23rd. at 1:49:16 pm UTC

diesel (washington) Age: 46 - Email


we need to take military action against iraq.....aimed at saddam. it's silly to think that we can just let this go. after all..what if we had with hitler? and just name one time when just sitting around wishing the world was a happy place full of nothing but good people with good intentions EVER had a positive effect. there are no such instances.
and ,good grief, does being a pagan also mean that you are also a left wing liberal always? i am not ,but i seem to be in the minority here.
and all the stupid things i read and hear people saying......good grief! for instance.....we just want their oil.
okay, that's just incredibly naive to think that. if we just wanted their oil we would lift all sanctions. what? you think they wouldn't sell it to us as fast as they could? of course they would. we could have taken their oil in the first gulf war. but we are americans..we don't do that. you would have to talk to the french about that.....that's what they are after.
i am tired of all the 'self loathing' americans [insert liberal fools here] that sit around and wring their hands and whine about what a terrible country this is.
all i can say is...you don't get out much, do you?
this is a good country full of good people....not perfect, but no place is. it's a work in progress.
and isn't it interesting that when bill clinton was in office, no one even 'peeped' about his bombing runs.
at least try to be a little more centered and less reactive. it's just because the president is a republican and so many of you seem to think that being a pagan also means that you have to be a democrat. it's sooo dishonest......really.


An Opinion Jan 23rd. at 2:20:35 pm UTC

Odin (Anacortes, WA) Age: 47 - Email


Greetings to all,

In the last 20 days or so, I have posted several posts to Wren's Nest regarding the issues of War and Oil. In short for those of you that haven't read my Wren's Nest Posts, Yes, absolutely Yes, this is a War for Oil, but not for the reasons that many of you think. History records that only when we controlled Hilter's Oil Supplies did we even stand a chance against Hilter. History also records that only by the invention of the Atomic Bomb were we able to stop Japan without losing ten of thousands of lives to what are today your family's heritage in American, Canada, Australia, England, Scotland, France, and every other Free thinking Nation. And ever since the end of World War II, every Conflict has been about the control of the enemies Oil and to control the enemies' ability to create weopons of mass destruction. The United Nations was created on the foundation that another Hilter can never be allowed to rise in power. And it is the controlling factor of the enemies Oil and Advance Weapons that is our Military's main Agenda.

In the west, and western Europe, several individuals can not fathom the ills of warfare. And that's alright, nobody is asking you to accept the killing of another human being against you conscience. That is what we have the Military for. I am former U.S. Army. I once wore that uniform with pride, and I understand their world. And I also understand how those that cannot fathom to kill for any reason must shelter themselves from such thoughts, or speak out against such thoughts. It's OK, no offense is taken. And know that it is for you, for your care, and for your way of life that is also being fought for. Because if Hilter had ruled the world, or if another Hilter shall rule the world, your rights to live in your state of conscience will cease, and you will either be killed, or cry that our U.S. Military failed you. But peaceful and loving people let me tell something. We are the Best! We are the Greatest! We are the Smartest! and our Military WILL NOT FAIL YOU, to continue your way of life, even if it means that you should live in disgust of the very protection that you live under. Over 90% of the colonists refuse George Washington call to battle against King George. They stood in their houses, some for fear, some for loyalty to Old England, some because their conscience wouldn't allow them to contemplate killing. But they all became free and shared in the rights of freedom. And so it's OK that you stay home, oppose our War Machine, and speak out against the very Government (UN, US, IMF, etc) that allows you to live your peaceful existence.

Killing is not an easy thing. But a necessary thing. And it is not necessary that everyone accept this. Only those in Government, and those in the Military. Yes many Men, Women, and Children are about to die. I mourn for the innocents, but I live with the mourning of two evils to choose from. Either I mourn for the innocents of Iraq, or I mourn for the innocents of the Entire World. Yes, I hate to have to mourn innocents. But sometimes life isn't always a sunny day with flowers and kisses from your loved ones. Life is also Death, and from Death new life is Reborn. We are about to experience a change in this world, and a change to a better world, where World Peace will become a closer reality, and a place were that wil be no more need of War.

I have lit candles for our Armed Forces. May they all come home safely. And yes, they will come home Heroes. Because they are already Heroes just to wear their uniforms.

Odin


The Wiccan Rede Jan 23rd. at 6:19:00 pm UTC

cleo (usa) Age: 48 - Email


my beliefs preclude the use of killing and include the disbelief in the old adage 'an eye for an eye'. therefore, i do not feel the use of force can be used to 'rectify the wrongs'.


WAR :-( Jan 23rd. at 6:44:59 pm UTC

Cleho (Sweden,Goteborg) Age: 42 - Email


I don´t like war that is the most down to humanity
and that can not be the right things to do in anyway. Link to More info related to this post -- HERE


Religious Belief Are Not The Philosophy Of War Jan 23rd. at 6:49:32 pm UTC

Odin (Anacortes, WA) Age: 47 - Email


Greeting to all,

The Wiccan Rede was invented in England with Wicca in the 1950's, and is not a rule that I follow in my path, understanding both the Light and Dark Sides as I understand the Sun and the Moon. I understand that some follow this Wiccan Rede, and I also understand that I, as well as many others do not, my Hereditary path comes from the Brujas (Witches) of Mexico. Therefore we are all not the same in thought, and very diversified in beliefs, neither being greater than the other. I also do not follow an eye for an eye philosophy. Not that it is Christian in nature, but that forgiveness and restitution can be used in it's place. We all have various religious beliefs, and in true, no two Christians, Pagans, or Witches can think exactly alike. The world would be a boring place if any two of us were just a clone of another.

War, the Study of War, the Phiolosophy of War, has nothing to do with any of the above. War is only one thing. The survival and the protection of the State, and turns a deaf ear to Religious beliefs. It is therefore, to some individuals, impossible to discuss the matters, or to even listen to the matters of War. It is like mixing Water and Oil, they never mix together, but remain separate. This is the wisdom of "Separation of Church and State."

It is a healthy thing for anyone, and everyone, to express their Religious beliefs, but not to force them upon another. I get very tried of having the "Wiccan Rede" thrown in my face equally to having Christians throw "Jesus Christ" in my face. Neither are my path, and each is just as insulting as the other to me. (Not every Pagan to WitchVox is Wiccan). But I have learned to tolerate Wiccans and Christians for their inability to understand that not all Citizens follow their exact religions traditions. No problem.

As stated in my previous post, there are those that cannot fathom killing at all, that it is completely against their conscience. And that is OK. And so the matters of War, and the care of the Security of the State are in the hands of Governments and the Military, and because of their efforts and duty to their professions, we may continue to live in our religious diversities.

Odin


Shipping 'em Out Jan 23rd. at 6:56:50 pm UTC

Yvette (North Carolina) Age: 47 - Email


War is wrong,unjust and given the awesome intellect we possess- just plain ignorant.Here on the coast we watch the soldiers ship out almost daily now- sooo many lives to be effected and affected. There has got to be a better way. Light and love.


Bomb Iraq... Jan 23rd. at 7:45:11 pm UTC

Ravenseye, Mafdet-Athtor (Miami, Florida) Age: 15 - Email


How do I feel about war? I think it depends. If there's a sincere reason, then we have to. It's a neccesary evil. Now, as far as this war goes, I think this song sums it up. Remember, it goes to the tune of "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands"
it goes to the tune of "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands...etc."
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
> If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
> If the terrorists are Saudi,
> And your alibi is shoddy,
> And your tastes remain quite gaudy,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
> If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
> If you think that SUVs,
> Are the best thing since sliced cheese,
> And your father you must please,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If the globe is quickly warming, bomb Iraq.
> If the poor will soon be storming, bomb Iraq.
> We assert that might makes right,
> Burning oil is a delight,
> For the empire we will fight,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
> If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq.
> So to hell with the inspections,
> Let's look tough for the elections,
> Close your mind and take directions,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
> If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
> If your politics are sleazy,
> And hiding that ain't easy,
> And your manhood's getting queasy,
> Bomb Iraq.
> Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
> For our might now knows no borders, bomb Iraq.
> Disagree? We'll call it treason,
> It's the make war not love season,
> Even if we have no reason,
> Bomb Iraq.


Ravenseye, Mafdet-Athtor Jan 23rd. at 8:48:35 pm UTC

MoonOwl (Egypt Lake, USA) Age: 39 - Email


I'm clapping my hands off!! That was wonderful! Thank you for sharing!

Goddess Bless Our World!

MoonOwl


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