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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 24,944,510  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 258

Lurker/Post Ratio: 127 to 1

Question of the Week: 104 - 3/24/2003

Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq?

Many people were initially for or against the possibility of a war in Iraq. Now that it is a reality and troops are on the ground, have you changed your mind or your position on the war?

Do you think that anti-war protests should cease? Do you think that an even greater divide has opened up between those who hold differing ideologies?

Do you think that the suspension of certain civil liberties for security reasons is appropriate during war time? Do YOU feel safer? Will the world be more secure because of this action?

What – if anything – concerns you the most about the war in Iraq?

 Reponses:   There are 258 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

HYPOCRITES Mar 26th. at 6:12:52 am EST

elf (england) Age: 23 - Email

I don't know how anyone can call themselves a pagan and support the Bush government who are all out to destroy the planet which we (supposedly) hold sacred. (Anyone who can defend this please get in touch) .
Bush even refused to sign the Kyoto agreement to stop global warming. America accounts for 25% of pollution which is causing global warming and Bush is refusing to stop. Then you believe his lies about this war. How gullible are you?

What The Hell? Mar 26th. at 7:20:39 am EST

Sarah (Massachusetts) Age: 14 - Email

to ANYONE who is dissing the Christian religion all I can say is I'm appauled to see that here. I have been raised Christian but a few years ago decided I was interested in Paganism. My parents, my sister, and my best friend are all Christians so I think what you're saying is absolutely HORRIBLE.

The fact that you're all much older than me and both directly and indirectly saying things about these people is horrible. It's plain immature. Think for a minute - yes, some (notice not all, SOME) Christians will say bad things about Pagan beliefs, but look what you're doing. You all should be ashamed.

My mother is a Christian, yet she doesn't support Bush in the least. She wants the war to happen so we can find Saddam but that she can't stand Bush. Does that mean she isn't a Christian even though shes been raised that way her entire life? Hmm.. it makes me wonder

i think ive been misinformed by some of these posts, perhaps you werent saying such things about Christianity but everything ive read offends me so much.

Protestors Mar 26th. at 8:11:57 am EST

columbine (NY) Age: 38 - Email

Seeing Amber in Portland's post prompted me to post this here as well. If you are on other forums that I am on, you've seen it there, too.

Now, I am not on either side of this issue. However --- what *I* personally have witnessed and experienced is the following:

1. I am a military spouse. I do not appreciate having lunch with my husband (who is in uniform) and minding my own business, accompanied by my 2 1/2 year old daughter, and being harrassed by protestors. Let me let ya in on a little secret --- my husband does *not* wield any power. Hell, he doesn't even wield a weapon. He is a medical evacuations pilot.

2. I am a military spouse. I do *not* appreciate being harrassed and spit on by anti-war protestors -- especially in the presence of my 2 1/2 year old daughter -- while going shopping. why am I a target? Simply because every vehicle we own has a little "military base" sticker on it.

3. Friends are medical personnel recruiters. Who are the morons setting up information appointments only to bring in a huge group of friends to harrass the poor guy about the war? HEllO!!?? You freakin' morons -- which part of "little guy does not wield any political power" don't you get???

Now, do you think these above things are unique to this conflict? NO! I can attest that 32-33 years ago -- when I was 5 or 6 -- the exact same things happened to me and my mom. Oh, yes, I remember it and it has been a strong memory.

All these events and more have caused me to really hate protestors --- because they have no freakin' clue, apparently, who holds power. And I have absolutely no positiion in this conflict except to support my guys and gals who are involved. And, you know, I saw some dumb ass post on another forums about a group of "feminists" sending in painted tampons to the White House in protest. Oh, yeah, *that* will certainly get your message across in a positive and mature manner. Oh, yeah, *someone's* gonna sit up and take notice; "Hey, Mr. President, we have 3, 000 red-painted tampons here in the Oval Office. Will you stop the war now? Please? If you don't, next time well send real ones!"

Now, yes, I know someone is going to pipe up and say there are pro-war protestors who are being just as big of a**holes --- but you know...honestly...I have yet to encounter them -- even when wearing my pagan and peace sign earrings and crap. Hey, they're a fashion -- not political-- statement for the present climate. I have no one coming up and patting me on the back telling me, "good job" for supporting my husband or giving any pro-war sentiments. I don't want them. My hsuband is doing his job ---- he volunteered; he knew what he could possibly get into. he isn't stupid. The only encounters I have are from hostile anti-war protestors.

A Link To A Protester, And A Word For Nightwind Mar 26th. at 9:20:41 am EST

Rick (Wisconsin, USA) Age: 31 - Email

This is a fascinating little clip from a radio show, please listen if you have the time and tell me what you think, by email or by posting

Nightwind, First, if our enemies were intelligent, they would realize that we are not over-extended militarily. Most of the combat power of the US military is in the National Guard, which has not had any major combat formations mobilized yet. Second this war is supported by, last time I saw, 70% + of the US population. Third, one of America's strengths is that we are a tolerant society, and pagans are as welcome as methodists or lutherans. Fourth, you say the US military is weak right now. I am having trouble not laughing right now and it is messing up my typing. The US military is in the middle of the most rapid armored advance in the history of warfare, General Heinz Guderian doesn't have squat on us!!!!!!!! This advance has cost us an unprecedentedly low number of casualties. We are brushing aside the most powerful formations of the Iraqi military which have been reduced to breaking the laws of war, dressing in US and UK uniforms, and using their own people as human shields. This is the strongest military in the history of the world. This is not even a majority of our combat divisions. We still have the 4th ID on ships, the 2nd ID in Korea, the 1st Cavalry is still in Texas. We have plenty of combat power left.

And just one more thing, Anti-war protests cost $900, 000 in police overtime a day. Couldn't that money be better spent on social programs? Giving food to the poor, or teaching kids to read would be a better use of that money if you ask me. Maybe the protestors should change their tactics so the police don't need so many officers present to maintain order?

If I don't respond immediately, it is because I am out of town. Have a good day and please send some positive energy to our men and women in harms way in Iraq. Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

This Pagan's Personal View.... Mar 26th. at 10:54:59 am EST

Lugh Branwen (Brooklyn, N.y.) Age: 34 - Email

Well, After reading one individual's post saying that No REAL pagan would support the war or President Bush...I had to address it.
I support the war because of My interpretation of the Rede: An it Harm none, Do as thou wilt.
Saddam Hussien has commited Horrible attrocities against His own people, His neighbors, and anyone else He can reach. Last time I checked, Atrocities Equalled HARM. It is the responsibilty of the Strong to protect the weak from Evil. For Us to Not finally get rid of this Monster is a violation of Everything we Hold sacred; Life and freedom. If you do not agree, ask an Iraqi who emigrated to escape the Horrific government of Saddam. Who is to say that We are not the Agent of Karma to enforce the will of the Universe in THIS PARTICULAR situation?
That the Iraqi People should be free to pursue their Lives without fear of Goons and rapists busting down their door. Have I changed My Mind about this war?..the answer is NO, Definitely NOT. Saddam poses a dire threat to anyone who wishes to live free of a Sadistic regime. Free from terror.
Free to practice OUR faith as we see fit.
If we truly believe in Love, If we really respect Life, we will do everything in Our power to Pray and Do Work for those that stand in the gap between the Evil and the Innocent.
Whether you like GW or not, whether you agree with His policies, This war is about doing what is right, and doing what should have been done years ago. Unless of course, you enjoy getting your oil from someone that kills His own people Just because they are there.
If you can live with fill up your gas tank, and Keep protesting.
Blessed Be.
Lugh Branwen.

Nightwind, On That Last Comment. Mar 26th. at 12:55:17 pm EST

Maleciah (Oregon) Age: 25 - Email

There can be no doubt. We as pagans do have a responsibility to healp heal what is happening.. all points you made on bush are valid. And all arguements and debates aside, I would be glad to stand side by side with other pagans to do that healing of America and am doing what I can in that regard as well. Cause if there is anyone who has the power to heal it is the faithful (regardless of the face of your faith) . And the pagans are a big part of that.

No Title Mar 26th. at 1:40:42 pm EST

Josh (Van Buren AR) Age: 14 - Email

Okay the protest shouldnt stop because once we lose the rebels the ^&^&% military guys will start getting even bigger egos. And our americanist will slowly die. we need rebels. so i think that people who launch anti-protest (which is contradictory since they are landing protest of their own) need to get over their horse or whateva. but most of all i htink the divide is nesscary and i hope the anti-war wins.


I Don't Know, Rick, Me Boyo, But When Mar 26th. at 2:23:24 pm EST

Night Wind (USA) Age: 2500 - Email

You wrote:

"I am having trouble not laughing right now and it is messing up my typing. The US military is in the middle of the most rapid armored advance in the history of warfare, General Heinz Guderian doesn't have squat on us!!!!!!!! "

It sure sounds like bombast to me.

You are right that there are unmobilized National Guard units. But they are mostly light infantry, and never armor. Light infantry just doesn't win wars, unless the opponent is very weak, indeed. Right now, the US military is at the weakest it has been since the late 1980s, and this is because it is overextended and underfunded for the job it has to do. I am getting this from sources like the Christian Science Monitor and Strategypage. When they agree on anything, you can bet it's true.

Please note that I am not a hard-core anti-war protestor. I think the war is _foolish_, not _immoral_. If we had a different leader, and we did it more intelligently, I could even support it. But our leader is someone who wishes to exclude Pagans from the national life, even those Pagans who serve their country in the armed forces. Further, our leader hs chosen to fight this war in a stupid manner which transforms it from an easy victory over a Third World country, into a long and draining occupation.

You should also note that I have been talking about the aftermath of the war more than the war itself.

The bombast you are using, and many other Americans are also using, is also just stupid and counterproductive. This kind of bragging -- "world's only superpower", "greatest advance in the history of warfare", "mightiest military in human history", "new world order", ad nauseam -- merely makes the United States look aggressive and dangerous, alienates people who are proud of their own countries, and, ultimately, doesn't mean nearly as much as real deeds, anyway. The way I was raised, such bragging was usually the mark of someone who DIDN'T have real strength, and used words to make up for it. Those who truly have power don't often need to advertise it.

The constant bragging and posturing of the Bush administration makes me wonder if the power is really there to back up the boasts. In this, Bush's bragging reminds me of Wilhelm II, actually. Deep down, Willi was a constitutional monarch with an inferiority complex, who used his own boasting and bombast to make up for an inner feeling of inferiority. Unfortunately, many people abroad found it very threatening, and it played a very great role in building the anti-German alliance that eventually defeated Germany in World War I. A more thoughtful, intelligent German than Willi once said, when listening to Willi rant on, and be supported by his people: "I feel Nero-ism in the air".

Well, when I listen to Bush, and to you, I feel Nero-ism in the air.

Protestors Mar 26th. at 2:32:19 pm EST

slackfoomaster (Oregon) Age: 29 - Email

Hello all, i don't understand these people who go downtown and sit in protest and then try and block bridges and then when they feel that there message hasn't gotten across they decide to destroy public and private property and then break into stores and steal what ever they can to benefit there interest. Well all that does is piss me off and if I owned one of the store's that get attacked I will be sitting inside waiting for these idiot's to bust in and try to take something and i mean TRY and take something from me.

Through the years i have seen alot of protests go bad and if these people want to protest in a peaceful manner so be it, go for it.But when people want to destroy things just to destoy things that is just wrong.


Bad Protestors... Mar 26th. at 2:56:11 pm EST

tawny (So. Cal.) Age: 24 - Email

Although those that take the left hand path would like to queer the reality to help their agenda, the reality is that a tiny faction of the prosters have done ANYTHING voilent. We are talking less than 1%...

So why is that the pro war folks continue to focus on LESS than 1% and try argue that near ALL protestors are actiing violently...

Give me a break.

Don't Buy It Still Mar 26th. at 3:00:15 pm EST

tawny (So. Cal.) Age: 24 - Email

To answer the question... NO... i haven't changed my mind. I still believe that this war has near zero to do with 'helping' the iraqui people and everything to do with holding a position in the middle east, jillion dollar contracts (kudos haliburton for your big score yesterday) , and a small man with a big ego.

"I am a uniter.. NOT a devider" - Good job at that Mr. bush.

Incredible, AND the drones are following him blindly on this.

Re: Bad Protesters Mar 26th. at 3:05:40 pm EST

Amber Heathen (Cornelius Oregon) Age: 22 - Email

So prove it. All I've seen are obnoxious, jobless, degenerates running amok in downtown Portland.

By the way, I'm not pro-war.

And I agree with the woman who posted earlier (the military wife) . People keep saying that the pro-war activists are the ones acting rudely--Point them out for me too, please. Some pro-war folks held a rally in Portland last Thursday and they kept it peaceful (and in a park, they didn't clog up the city streets) . It was relatively calm for the most part, except when a bunch of anti-war protesters walked on down and tried to pick fights with them.

I have to hand it to the Portland Police Department--the men and women must have a lot of patience and self-control. I saw a police-officer get pushed off his bicycle yesterday morning during the "peace" march. If I were that officer I would have whipped out one of those nifty batons and put the beat down on the guy, screaming "Protest this!! You wanna see police brutality?? Lemme show ya!" Good thing I ain't a cop!

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