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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Sep. 8, 2002   This Page Viewed: 9,721,626  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 153

Lurker/Post Ratio: 214 to 1

Question of the Week: 95 - 1/19/2003

How Do You Feel About War?

‘Yes I'm talking about this war dance/ A patriotic romance./And I know all you poets/Have seen it all before…’ – Colin Moulding, XTC

Colin: ‘The words were originally prompted by the Falklands War in 1982. But it was too much on one piece of history. Then along came the Persian Gulf War and I put the revised lyrics to a new piece of music. It was time to bring war out of the closet again.’


And again, it would seem. How do you, from your own spiritual perspective or tradition, view and/or cope with the ideals and realities of war and armed conflict?

Do your political leanings influence how you feel?

Do you have a difficult time explaining/defending/advocating your position to other Pagans or Heathens? Non-Pagans?

 Reponses:   There are 153 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


An Opinion Jan 23rd. at 2:20:35 pm UTC

Odin (Anacortes, WA) Age: 47 - Email


Greetings to all,

In the last 20 days or so, I have posted several posts to Wren's Nest regarding the issues of War and Oil. In short for those of you that haven't read my Wren's Nest Posts, Yes, absolutely Yes, this is a War for Oil, but not for the reasons that many of you think. History records that only when we controlled Hilter's Oil Supplies did we even stand a chance against Hilter. History also records that only by the invention of the Atomic Bomb were we able to stop Japan without losing ten of thousands of lives to what are today your family's heritage in American, Canada, Australia, England, Scotland, France, and every other Free thinking Nation. And ever since the end of World War II, every Conflict has been about the control of the enemies Oil and to control the enemies' ability to create weopons of mass destruction. The United Nations was created on the foundation that another Hilter can never be allowed to rise in power. And it is the controlling factor of the enemies Oil and Advance Weapons that is our Military's main Agenda.

In the west, and western Europe, several individuals can not fathom the ills of warfare. And that's alright, nobody is asking you to accept the killing of another human being against you conscience. That is what we have the Military for. I am former U.S. Army. I once wore that uniform with pride, and I understand their world. And I also understand how those that cannot fathom to kill for any reason must shelter themselves from such thoughts, or speak out against such thoughts. It's OK, no offense is taken. And know that it is for you, for your care, and for your way of life that is also being fought for. Because if Hilter had ruled the world, or if another Hilter shall rule the world, your rights to live in your state of conscience will cease, and you will either be killed, or cry that our U.S. Military failed you. But peaceful and loving people let me tell something. We are the Best! We are the Greatest! We are the Smartest! and our Military WILL NOT FAIL YOU, to continue your way of life, even if it means that you should live in disgust of the very protection that you live under. Over 90% of the colonists refuse George Washington call to battle against King George. They stood in their houses, some for fear, some for loyalty to Old England, some because their conscience wouldn't allow them to contemplate killing. But they all became free and shared in the rights of freedom. And so it's OK that you stay home, oppose our War Machine, and speak out against the very Government (UN, US, IMF, etc) that allows you to live your peaceful existence.

Killing is not an easy thing. But a necessary thing. And it is not necessary that everyone accept this. Only those in Government, and those in the Military. Yes many Men, Women, and Children are about to die. I mourn for the innocents, but I live with the mourning of two evils to choose from. Either I mourn for the innocents of Iraq, or I mourn for the innocents of the Entire World. Yes, I hate to have to mourn innocents. But sometimes life isn't always a sunny day with flowers and kisses from your loved ones. Life is also Death, and from Death new life is Reborn. We are about to experience a change in this world, and a change to a better world, where World Peace will become a closer reality, and a place were that wil be no more need of War.

I have lit candles for our Armed Forces. May they all come home safely. And yes, they will come home Heroes. Because they are already Heroes just to wear their uniforms.

Odin


The Wiccan Rede Jan 23rd. at 6:19:00 pm UTC

cleo (usa) Age: 48 - Email


my beliefs preclude the use of killing and include the disbelief in the old adage 'an eye for an eye'. therefore, i do not feel the use of force can be used to 'rectify the wrongs'.


WAR :-( Jan 23rd. at 6:44:59 pm UTC

Cleho (Sweden,Goteborg) Age: 42 - Email


I don´t like war that is the most down to humanity
and that can not be the right things to do in anyway. Link to More info related to this post -- HERE


Religious Belief Are Not The Philosophy Of War Jan 23rd. at 6:49:32 pm UTC

Odin (Anacortes, WA) Age: 47 - Email


Greeting to all,

The Wiccan Rede was invented in England with Wicca in the 1950's, and is not a rule that I follow in my path, understanding both the Light and Dark Sides as I understand the Sun and the Moon. I understand that some follow this Wiccan Rede, and I also understand that I, as well as many others do not, my Hereditary path comes from the Brujas (Witches) of Mexico. Therefore we are all not the same in thought, and very diversified in beliefs, neither being greater than the other. I also do not follow an eye for an eye philosophy. Not that it is Christian in nature, but that forgiveness and restitution can be used in it's place. We all have various religious beliefs, and in true, no two Christians, Pagans, or Witches can think exactly alike. The world would be a boring place if any two of us were just a clone of another.

War, the Study of War, the Phiolosophy of War, has nothing to do with any of the above. War is only one thing. The survival and the protection of the State, and turns a deaf ear to Religious beliefs. It is therefore, to some individuals, impossible to discuss the matters, or to even listen to the matters of War. It is like mixing Water and Oil, they never mix together, but remain separate. This is the wisdom of "Separation of Church and State."

It is a healthy thing for anyone, and everyone, to express their Religious beliefs, but not to force them upon another. I get very tried of having the "Wiccan Rede" thrown in my face equally to having Christians throw "Jesus Christ" in my face. Neither are my path, and each is just as insulting as the other to me. (Not every Pagan to WitchVox is Wiccan). But I have learned to tolerate Wiccans and Christians for their inability to understand that not all Citizens follow their exact religions traditions. No problem.

As stated in my previous post, there are those that cannot fathom killing at all, that it is completely against their conscience. And that is OK. And so the matters of War, and the care of the Security of the State are in the hands of Governments and the Military, and because of their efforts and duty to their professions, we may continue to live in our religious diversities.

Odin


Shipping 'em Out Jan 23rd. at 6:56:50 pm UTC

Yvette (North Carolina) Age: 47 - Email


War is wrong,unjust and given the awesome intellect we possess- just plain ignorant.Here on the coast we watch the soldiers ship out almost daily now- sooo many lives to be effected and affected. There has got to be a better way. Light and love.


Bomb Iraq... Jan 23rd. at 7:45:11 pm UTC

Ravenseye, Mafdet-Athtor (Miami, Florida) Age: 15 - Email


How do I feel about war? I think it depends. If there's a sincere reason, then we have to. It's a neccesary evil. Now, as far as this war goes, I think this song sums it up. Remember, it goes to the tune of "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands"
it goes to the tune of "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands...etc."
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
> If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
> If the terrorists are Saudi,
> And your alibi is shoddy,
> And your tastes remain quite gaudy,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
> If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
> If you think that SUVs,
> Are the best thing since sliced cheese,
> And your father you must please,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If the globe is quickly warming, bomb Iraq.
> If the poor will soon be storming, bomb Iraq.
> We assert that might makes right,
> Burning oil is a delight,
> For the empire we will fight,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
> If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq.
> So to hell with the inspections,
> Let's look tough for the elections,
> Close your mind and take directions,
> Bomb Iraq.
> If corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
> If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
> If your politics are sleazy,
> And hiding that ain't easy,
> And your manhood's getting queasy,
> Bomb Iraq.
> Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
> For our might now knows no borders, bomb Iraq.
> Disagree? We'll call it treason,
> It's the make war not love season,
> Even if we have no reason,
> Bomb Iraq.


Ravenseye, Mafdet-Athtor Jan 23rd. at 8:48:35 pm UTC

MoonOwl (Egypt Lake, USA) Age: 39 - Email


I'm clapping my hands off!! That was wonderful! Thank you for sharing!

Goddess Bless Our World!

MoonOwl


Heck, No, I Won't Go... To War! Jan 23rd. at 11:20:25 pm UTC

Owl Starlight (Aliso Viejo, CA) Age: 17 - Email


I'm 17, and fortunately I don't have to register for the draft at 18, being female and an only child. However, I had been seriously considering a career in the US Navy (even going so far as to join the US Naval Sea Cadets for a time), and my thoughts have since changed greatly.

I've been raised Democratic, though I have my own ideas. I definitely don't like Bush (I call him the Shrub). First things first, yes, my political ideas, such as they are, do factor in pretty heavily: these are, however, my opinions alone and I don't expect to hear agreement from anyone. Now, to the meat and potatoes.

First, I seriously call into question the motives behind this war. In US History in my school, we just finished a look at US imperialism. Imperialism is defined (roughly) as going out and taking over other people because they have something you want, and often doing so under the covers of racism and/or religion. The statement came up that that sounds an *awful* lot like what's going on today, in Iraq. The commodity is oil, the excuse is political dominance and religious racism. Iraq is very heavily Muslim, and I've not noticed any concerted efforts by the American government to say "Hey, these people have valid beliefs and we shouldn't hate the entire religion just because of a few radicals with some twisted views!" Hardly. I know I've mentioned this before, but after 9-11, American rallying cry was "God and Country," under the symbols of the flag and the Christian cross.

Now, Saddam Hussein made a fool out of the Shrub's father. Bush Sr. has basically been reelected, and firmly controls American politics through his son. So it makes sense that Jr. would go pick a fight with Iraq, when viewed through that lens.

The Bush family's fortune is in big Texas oil (and war, they made money selling oil to the Nazis in WWII, right alongside John D. Rockefeller). American plans are to remove the current Iraqi regime by fabricating a war, and put in a regime based on the American government: of course, this means that all of the officials will be US-friendly. In other words, puppets. Ousting Hussein essentially means that a good portion of the world's oil supply is under US control, if indirectly. Since those men would be American puppets, of course they would listen if Bush asked them to step the oil production down. At the same time, America's goes up (and there would have to be a trade-off, of course, something's in it for them). Bush's family (and close friends) then makes barrels of money from drilling American oil and selling it in place of Saudi and Iraqi oil.

Second point, will it *really* make *any* friends over there to the US? Everyone tells me that the Iraqi people are misled by government propaganda (lies). Well, lied to or not, they genuinely love the man. As many enemies as he has, he has just as many admirers in his nation.

Last, it's not Saddam we need to worry about so much as his son. He's dangerous, admittedly, but Saddam's son is more dangerous than Papa. Papa leaves office for any reason, Junior steps in, and even Iraqi officials don't like him. I've heard him described as "cutthroat," if that is any indication of this man's activities.

Would I go? Would I die, if needed? Not on my life, or anyone else's! I was raised with a respect for life that, had I applied for the military, would have forced me to take a non-combatant job. Wicca, for me, has only reinforced that: how could it otherwise? This era of technological weapons and mass media seems to make men into pawns, so that their blood doesn't leave a stain on politician's hands and doesn't affect American culture deeply. I do not see a solution to this dilemma that is agreeable to all, but if the warmongerers could be silenced for even a week, I'm certain a solution could be found that doesn't involve war, or militaries, or the needless waste of men and women's lives.

Thanks for your time.

- Owl Starlight


I'm Sick Of FIGHTING! Jan 24th. at 2:54:01 am UTC

Lady Morgaine Le Faye (wallingford, CT) Age: 23 - Email


I don't want to cope with the armed conflict.I want it to stop. I do not see why we can not just weed out the terrorists or whatever "bad guys" the government is looking for and deal with them forthrightly, and leave the innocents alone. The only ones we seem to be fighting and killing are the innocent bystanders, and ourselves. This does not solve the problem. I think, if anything, politicians are the problem and I have not ever agreed with the actions they are taking. It makes for interesting conversation in my family, since my mother( who is also Wiccan) and brother are both in the Army. She is retired and does now share my views, however my brother and father are gung-ho to go over there and blow stuff up! I have very liberal views, as I thought they did, but since everything started, most of my family is showing their true colors and are more closed minded than I thought possible. While they have drill, I go to anti- war protests.. I do not have a problem voicing my opinion, but I often find myself at a loss for words to back it up.


War Only When Necessary Not For Political Or Ego Jan 24th. at 6:21:39 am UTC

foreverknightfan (Dardanelle, Arkansas) Age: 39 - Email


I am of the generation that still remembers Vietnam. My father served in Nam and I remember in 1973 going to a base event that included MIA bracelets. My father is stillbitter about Nam being apolitical war and the uneeded loss of life. IMO war with Iraq is asinine. If the people want to overthow Hussein they can do it themselves. Apparently if USA fighting forces ( and lets face it most in that war WILl be American soldiers, not our " allies") actually try to take over the Iraq cities by land the populace is ready to kill them all. And for what? A delayed reaction to what Iraq did to many folks some years back? The supposed terrorists living there? Yes what happened on 9/11 was horrible and yes there are certain fanatical Muslims who hate Americans enough to kill us all if they could. We cannot police the world. If the poeple of a country want their rulers overthown, they will have to do it themselves, because if we do it for them, they will blame us for interfering.
I have heard some Muslims, including some Muslim teenagers in America defend the 9/11 tragedy. This in AMERICA. Whatever we do, war or not, they will not agree with. And frankly I am not willing to risk lives for a cause that can be handled without war. WHen the battle is justified, when the risks are worth it, when there is no other way, then yes we HAVE to fight in a war. BTW the " Gulf war" was a battle, not a war.


Never A Reason For War. Never. Jan 24th. at 6:35:48 am UTC

Horse-head (United States of America) Age: 25 - Email


War means death for thousands, due to the actions of a few.
War causes the problems it seeks to allieve.
War is solace for those who fear that their enemies may be right.
And wars are triggered by people who cannot harness the power of words.

The very fact that the United States sees war as an option proves that we are no better than our enemies.

We may very well "win" this war. But at what cost?
I fear my own people.

HH


Peace Jan 24th. at 12:07:49 pm UTC

Ericka (nh) Age: 38 - Email


Who benefits from war? Our young children we send over sea? The poor? Are there any oil company CEO's children in the military? Big business, Big money. Big mess. If we bomb, then we have to pay to clean up there country. What about the homeless in our OWN country? We can't even take care of ourselves and we want to run another? How much more can we destroy of our planet, we only have this ONE. Universal PEACE is everybodys dream, SOME feel it necessary to CONTROL others. We shouldlearn from precedence, Vietnam. No WAR is a good WAR. PRAY FOR PEACE.


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