Your browser does not support script

Pagan Perspectives

Weekly Question

Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

Views: [32,767]
Responses: [2,666]

The Rules
Note: The opinions posted on the Pagan Perspective pages are those of individuals and are not neccessarily shared or endorsed by the Witches' Voice inc.

For Further
Visit The

WitchVox List
of 242
'Net Sites:

Chat Boards
Email Lists
IRC Channels

Past Questions
112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

111. So, You’re Dead. Now What? - [59]

110. What’s Your Favorite Element? - [119]

109. The Broom Closet Revisited: What’s Your Current Occupancy Rate? - [129]

108. Do You Speak Pagan Geek? - [38]

107. Would You Be A Good ‘Reality Show’ Contestant? - [49]

106. What Is Your Inner Animal? - [127]

105. Are Pagans TOO Individualistic? - [56]

104. Have You Changed Your Mind About the War in Iraq? - [258]

103. What Are You Reading? - [95]

102. Do Interfaith Conferences/ Discussions Work? - [29]

101. Have You Made Any Extra Security Preparations? - [85]

100. Why Are You A Pagan or Heathen? - [142]

99. What Moon Phase Are You In? - [70]

98. Would You Live In A Haunted House? - [166]

97. What Natural Objects Are On Your Altar? - [103]

96. If You Were Granted Three Wishes... - [179]

95. How Do You Feel About War? - [153]

94. Who Would Make Your Pagan/Heathen Who’s Who List? - [91]

93. Should Pagans Apply For Federal Funds? - [56]

92. What Do You See in 2003? - [47]

90. Which Christmas Ghost Would You Like To Be? - [82]

89. Bah-Humbug! Are You Offended by Christmas? - [173]

88. Are We Alone in The Universe? - [67]

87. The Pagan Web 2002... Your likes? Dislikes? - [50]

86. How’s Your Gratitude Attitude? - [64]

85. What’s Your Motivation? - [97]

84. Between the Veils: What Did You See? - [80]

83. Time to Talk Politics and Elections… - [109]

82. Your Samhain/Beltaine Musings - [50]

81. ExCUSE Me! Has Common Courtesy Become A Thing of the Past? - [97]

80. Polytheist, Monotheist, Dualist or Other? - [104]

79. Have You Switched Pagan Paths? - [110]

78. Would You Take Part in a Public Event or Protest AS a Pagan? - [268]

77. Pot-Kettle: Do We Have Our Own Fundamentalists? - [91]

76. America 911: One Year Later. What's Changed? Are we Safer? - [103]

75. So What Do YOU Think of the Pagan Web? - [43]

74. What is/was your 2002 New Year's resolution - [23]

73. Do You Believe in Faeries? - [44]

72. Is 'Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men' Possible? - [28]

71. How Do YOU View the Balance of Light and Dark? - [22]

70. What's News? - [22]

69. What Are Your Favorite Yule Traditions or Memories? - [17]

68. Are You Wild About Harry? - [80]

67. What Is Music? - [18]

66. What Did You Do this Samhain? - [8]

65. What ARE the most "Frequently Asked Questions' About Witches? - [31]

64. What Are YOUR book/video/dvd Recommendations? - [119]

63. Have You Done Any Protection Spells or Workings? - [38]

62. What Are Your Thoughts On The Current "War on Terrorism"? - [77]

61. Are You Willing To Give Up Some Civil Liberties To Be Safe? - [69]

60. What About Those Pagan Leaders Again? - [289]

59. 911 America: Talking Through The Terror... - [969]

58. What Are Your Plans For Fall? - [21]

57. If You Were Stranded Alone On A Deserted Island... - [56]

56. What Would You Like to See at The Voice? - [65]

55. What Lies Beyond? - [28]

54. What is the connection between Spirit, Nature and Humankind? - [18]

53. What is 'Will' or 'Willpower'? - [19]

52. Have you ever been to a Pagan Festival? - [26]

51. What Did You Think of 'The Mists of Avalon"? - [44]

50. What's Your Magickal Focus? - [33]

49. Ending Religious Discrimination-What's It Gonna Take? - [41]

48. How Fares The First Amendment? - [20]

47. Are you a Talker or a Listener? - [14]

46. Predator and Prey - What Beasts Live Within You? - [44]

45. Who Do You Trust? - [22]

44. Do You Spend Money with Pagan Merchants? - [24]

43. What's On Your Balloon? - [52]

42. Is There An Energy Crisis? - [30]

41. What Makes You So Special? - [33]

40. What is Your Guilty Little Secret? - [101]

39. Who Are Your Gods? - [55]

38. What Are The Greatest Challenges That Pagans Face Today? - [35]

37. What's On Your Altar? - [45]

36. Should the United States Apologize to China - [32]

35. Pagan Web Surfing Likes/Dislike - [60]

34. What Are Your Views on Abortion, Euthanasia and Suicide? - [95]

33. What Is The Appropriate Response to Bigotry and Religious Hatred? - [108]

32. Why Are Kids Killing Kids? - [60]

31. Whassa Matter With Kids Today? - [71]

30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

29. How About Some New Holidays? - [39]

28. Where Did You Get Your Magickal Name? - [93]

27. Where Are The Pagan Social Programs? Do We Care? - [22]

26. What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan? - [87]

25. What Are The Boundaries? - [26]

24. What is Pagan History and What is Pagan Belief? - [44]

23. Who or What is a "Pagan Leader"? - [61]

22. What More Do You Want To Know About Paganism? - [45]

21. What is/was your New Year's resolution? - [19]

19. What do YOU of our newest entry into the Presidential Political Pool? - [61]

20. What have YOU done to trace your family history? - [11]

18. Your Gift, Craft and Holiday Celebration Ideas! - [43]

17. Does Older Equal Better? - [199]

16. What is the best gift that you ever received? - [28]

15. What are YOU Thankful For? - [87]

14. The Unresolved US Election - [263]

13. Divination - [29]

12. Pagan Choice for the y2k US Election - [129]

11. Hollywood Hype - [74]

10. Money and the Craft - [82]

9. Pagan Jokes and Humorous Stories - [37]

8. Misconceptions About Witches, Wiccans and Pagans - [63]

7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

6. What are YOU planning for Mabon-Autumn Equinox? - [14]

5. Pagan books/web sites-dynamic or drivel? - [46]

4. The Broomcloset-In or Out?... What's YOUR View? - [181]

3. Church and State, Religion in School... What is YOUR View? - [122]

2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 13,431,417  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 74

Lurker/Post Ratio: 442 to 1

Question of the Week: 112 - 5/28/2003

Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them?

From The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:

elder : 1. an older person, especially one with a respected position in society; 2. an official of a religious group.

What is your definition of an Elder? Do we need Elders? Do we want Elders? What would be the role of an Elder in the Pagan/Heathen communities?

Who decides who is an Elder? Can someone simply declare him/herself an Elder? Do you discern a difference between ‘someone with a respected position in society’ and ‘an official of a religious group’? Can a solitary practitioner – who is not an ‘official’ of a recognized group, but nevertheless provides something of value to Paganism/Heathenism -- be considered an Elder?

Is age a factor? Wisdom? Proven track record? Who do you consider to be an Elder?

 Reponses:   There are 74 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

Elders Jun 8th. at 12:12:57 am EDT

Carl (S.D Ca.) Age: 26 - Email

Elders are those whom you can turn to for answers to those questions that you yourself can not find the answers to. they are those who know more than you on the specific topic you are struggling on and those who have no problem in helping you on your way. That is my definition of an elder. An elder in my opinion does not flaunt themselves as such for recognition of how many years they have been in practice or how much they know. Half of all those i have met saying the are elders have paned out to be not so elder, so in this i say if you know more than me and are willing to teach me then you are worthy of the title.
If not for my Navy buddy Dan I would be completly lost, though he does know alot he never figures himself even above me. Consitering he has been in practice for over 15 years and I only a mere 2 or so.
He is always there to help no matter what he is doing and that to me is an ELDER...
To represent, CPL HALLER/ USMC.....

They Said So! Jun 7th. at 6:05:49 pm EDT

Uhuro alias Klaus Lundberg (Denmark) Age: 40 - Email

So who´s an elder, and do we need them? Well in my opinion, all societyes, famillies, groups of people needs and bennefits from elders. As people we need somebody once in a while, to show us how its done, and lead us along the way. This is the natural role of the elder. Now because of this I don´t Think - being an elder is something you proclaim yourself yoo be, it´s rather something you become, then people says so. So then they begin to come running for advice, then they come to you, because, they need your experience, and don´t know that else to do - then just maybe you are an elder. But you got to stay around and be patient, your time may come. - Bee Blessed with love from UHURO

Elders Yes And No Jun 7th. at 7:29:32 am EDT

Dave (Pa.) Age: 51 - Email

I look at the word Elders from two different ways. The ones who destroy and the ones with great teachings within.The White Man ways for which I am, taught me the path for which I don't want to be.The path of disrespect for that of our land, air and that of our water.
I feel I was born with the heart of an elder and many of the older people around me seen and felt that energy within me. To me an Elder is one that shows love and respect for all things on Earth.It takes a great heart to love all and only the heart of a true Elder can have that much respect.I feel age has no bearing on this matter.
I seen myself on the Angelic Planet before the Earth was even born.Many old souls are on this planet at this point and time to help bring forth change.Are they the real Elders on this Earth? I learned nothing but greed and hate from my father.
I feel everything comes from the heart or Spirit Self and the child within that heart is the ture teaching of an Elder.Older people can teach us much, but it is what they teach that makes one an Elder and only a small percentages of humans will ever learn the ways of a true Elder.
Love and Blessing to All
Golden Eagle

Continuity Jun 7th. at 2:27:12 am EDT

Mark Martin (Port Orchard, WA) Age: 41 - Email

A simple word -- Continuity.

I have seen it fail in business department and seen a that business scramble trying to reinvent and redevelop the attitudes, ethics and simple "knowing" that is involved in handing down information from a previous generation to a new one. What is written is a guide and is raw information. That can "help" but information without context leads to confusion and misinterpretation/misapplication of that information.

That is the purpose of Elders. To help provide the "knowing" of what was and understanding of how it applies to what is. What will be is something the they may choose to look at and participate in the construction of but that is usually the province of the younger generations to build because the younger ones first must LEARN what came before and get the "why" of it answered. Not just the "what" but that ugly "why" question...

Value? So massive that it cannot be expressed with any ease.

Age/Wisdom/Knowlege Jun 6th. at 8:44:55 pm EDT

Penny J. Novack (Berkshire Mntns, MA, USA) Age: -62 - Email

Is an Elder someone who KNOWS?
Is an Elder someone who has EXPERIENCE?
Is an Elder someone of compassion who is COMPETENT?
Is an Elder someone who TEACHES?
Is an Elder someone who has an Old Wisdom?
Is an Elder a HEALER?
Is an Elder anyone you feel respect for?
Does age itself mean anything in the context of the term Elder?

This is a matter, it seems, of personal definitions.

I will always believe all beings are capable of teaching me if I am ready to learn from them. I am always grateful for kindness and generosity of spirit. I will always admire the knowlege of those who have struggled to attain mastery.

But to me, Elders will always be at least a little wrinkled and perhaps have at least a bit of grey in their hair. My own personal "take".

The Need For Elders Jun 6th. at 5:18:56 pm EDT

Angela Patterson (Pheonix, Arizona) Age: 26 - Email

The need for Elders is still alive and well. I am a young woman of minimal knowledge. Without the Elders greater wisdom those such as myself would wither away.
I believe that an Elder is one who needs no social standing or leads any religious group. In fact to me an Elder is an older, wiser person who strives to pass on their great knowledge. I think of myself as a solitary practioner but I have Elders that guide and encourage me. I give them the respect of the title Elder because they offer their time to teach myself and my sister much of their vast knowledge. I believe Elders are different people to us all. Most of those that I would consider Elders would not in fact consider themselves as such.
We need them as much as we need each other. Without the older, wiser ones we would be lost; without the guidance that started us all on this path. Elders are part of pagan, wiccan, heathen tradition. I know that were it not for those that I consider Elders I would not be the peaceful woman on a marvelous path through life that I am.

Knowing Where We Came Form Will Show Us Where We Are Going Jun 6th. at 3:27:02 pm EDT

Aberon the seeker (ca, usa) Age: 27 - Email

An elder has in the modern era been considered a position held by a person in a Christian institution, one that has a vast amount of knowledge of the chosen path. In more recent decades, approximately 1970 to today the Neo-Pagan movement have been more visible and open to public scrutiny. A primary problem that most movements have, whether they are modern or ancient, is the language that must be developed in order to communicate with those who are outside the movement as well as those who are inside the movement. Some words have been borrowed from the Judaio-Christian Lexicon, such as Sabbath or more commonly seen as Sabbat. Other words that Christians considered Christian, but truly remain neutral; Liturgy, from the Latin word Liturgia ( a derivative of a Greek word) that means public works - such as a bible or manuscript. Some words we have invented, like Esbat, I believe Doreen Valiente coined the term. This is where the understanding of elder comes into play. Do we as a community of Neo-Pagans use the term Elder, or do we choose another term. Do we ignore the modern-day-interpretation of the term and not mistake the vehicle for the tenor? I feel that we are able to utilize this phrase with all of its great meaning; one that is of a respected nature in the community, who passes down knowledge, not law. An Elder is a person who is not necessarily older than you in birth years, but one who teaches the whole community with great wisdom and skill. With this I feel that we are able to use the term Elder.
Needing elders is definitely a personal decision at the micro-level of being, but in the macrocosm of our Neo-Pagan community I think that Elders are needed. Our community as a whole is in desperate need of people who have been around for a while and have spent a great deal of time to the understanding of our nature and disposition as a community. We also need those who have a greater understanding of what it is to be a Neo-Pagan, the ethics and morality of practice, as well as a sound common sense of our needs as a community. As a community we need a variety of things, I feel some of them are in education both to those young people who choose to enter our community in their teen-aged years as well as a bridge of communication to those who misunderstand our community (a dialogue if you will, complete with a vocabulary that will create a common ground for conversation between ourselves and others) . Next, we need inform our newcomers of our history. It is not a fact that we have any, if at all direct links to traditions that have been passed down since the time before written accounts of our rites existed. Wicca is a new religion, more of a reconstructive religion than it is a path that has always been. Yes it taps into ancient knowledge and uses techniques form ancient religions, but it is not ancient in and of itself. Understanding and education of the Ethical and Moral implications behind spell-work is also a very well deserved and needed material for our community. These are only a few of examples of the many things that our community needs. These are the things that our chosen Elders should be able to impart.
Wanting Elders is definitely a personal decision that only 'you' may answer for yourself.
Each community should decide who their Elders are, for instance, the N.R.O.O.G.D. community ( one of the oldest traditions in the United States today) have what are called Red Cords. These are their Elders, unfortunately they sometimes make a person a Red Cord when they are not ready as an individual to become one. I am in Southern California and met a Red Cord in that particular tradition, she was not ready in my opinion for a few reasons. She was rather self centered in the aspect of her importance above other people (we are all equal, she acted as if she disagreed) , she often used her 'Red Cord' status as a levy against other people in discussions, she was also not apt at teaching people a technique with the understanding that the methods are open to interpretation. Regardless of her poor behavior, the local communities should decide who their Elders are. Once I read that an Elder is considered a person who has been practicing the 'Craft' for ten or more years. If that was the case I would be an Elder of more then two years now - I don't think that is a substantial enough reason.
I do feel that a solitary practitioner is quite capably of being an Elder - look at the mythos of Merlin, he was a solitary Druid (seeing that many Druids were not mentioned in eth Christianized version of the legends) and he was quite the Elder to the boy king Arthur. If a solitary fractioned has a set of valuable skills and sufficient knowledge (book, practical, and wisdom) yes, they may be the Elder of a community. Sometimes, a solitary is all we have.
Age is not a factor, to a small degree - I feel that Wisdom and a 'proven track record' help with matters... I consider NovaMoondancer, EmeraldEyes and Samwise (peace be with the departed) all Elders. Nova belongs to a tradition, the latter do not, in fact Samwise wasn't even Neo-Pagan, but quite understanding of them.

Merry Meet, Merry Part, and Merry Meet Again
Aberon the seeker.

see the link for NROOGD Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

Addendum, Inspired By Grey Cat Jun 6th. at 6:46:47 am EDT

Sunflower (Calgary AB) Age: 41 - Email

Grey Cat isn't wrong about there being something that happens as the days stack up.
I've been saying for years that this age/wisdom connection is that, the more time you've been around, the more -opportunity- for experience, i.e. "stuff happens to you"; the more such opportunity, the more chance that you've learned to do something with it (like learning from it, and the kind of personal development Grey Cat cites) . As a result, the older someone is in years, the better the odds that they'll have -some- wisdom about -something-.
Of course there are those who never did do anything but stack up years; we've all known them. That's the above process working v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y.
When I spoke earlier of very young elders (I'd guess most of those who mentioned this were thinking much as I was, but I can't be certain) , it was because sometimes the process goes quite quickly. I'm not any more impressed by ignorant 20-year-olds than the next midlifer, but that's no reason to dismiss those who are anything but ignorant. As I read Grey Cat's description, I thought of one "baby elder" of my acquaintance, who at 17 fits the description. I'm not saying this is common; its rarity is what makes that young lady so remarkable.


Elder Question Jun 6th. at 1:24:45 am EDT

Chasmodai (Las Vegas) Age: 42 - Email

Yes, we need Elders. IMO their role would be to help provide the community with guidance, help keep the community functioning together and moving forward. The Elder is the community's voice of wisdom, of conscience. A sometimes mediator, sometimes teacher, sometimes leader, sometimes storyteller, always respected and usually beloved.

A person cannot simply call himself/herself an Elder. A person becomes an Elder simply by actions, by track record. A community will rely on this person in the function of an Elder, and that is how this person will be recognized as such.

I think we have to be cautious about assuming that age alone can make a person an Elder. A person with an untreated personality disorder may not learn well from his or her mistakes and may never develop good judgement. A person with strong bias or prejudice may over time become more entrenched in distorted beliefs and perceptions. Some people decide they know enough and stop learning. Some fools simply become old fools. These types of things can prevent a person from ever becoming an Elder.

Elders: Who They Are And Do We Need Them Jun 5th. at 9:16:19 pm EDT

Laurie-Ann Potter (connecticut) Age: 33 - Email

Elders are peopleolder then onesself that have proven themselves in society not by what they, preach but by what they teach. They treat others with respect unless given a reason (not excuse) not to. They pass on their knowledge to all young people equally with out prejudice, even when this may cause problems in their families and communities.

We need elders to help future generations learn from past mistakes. That by following examples we can forge peace among different races and religions in the future. Elders can be people in your age group who have shown mature restraint in the face of adversity. Or they maybe older generations who have remained true to their heritage and pass on their knowledge to better the future.

And Something More Jun 5th. at 12:49:29 pm EDT

Grey Cat (Tennessee) Age: 63 - Email - Web

I think we did ourselves a disservice by confusing teachers, leaders and Priest/esses with elders. Part of the reason stems from the American Indian courtesy of calling one's teacher "grandmother/father". Also, for some reason, someone decided to call fully trained priest/esses "elders" -one assumes with the thought of helping them have the authority to keep the coven running smoothly.

Elders are, of course, teachers, leaders, confidants, counsellors and priest/esses of our community. However, on reading earlier posts on this topic I perceive that everyone shows signs of wanting something more to the definition. And here is where I'm going to make myself very unpopular. Age and experience DO count.

Something happens when an aware person piles one day on top of another. The result is not a matter for simple addition because at some point, "something" happens. It's much like the shift of understanding which initiation, ideally, begins or completes. Note that I have NOT said that age is all it takes.

Several things go into this transition:
1. You finally know yourself well enough that you don't have to elaborately design your response to situations. A certain freedom from the "little self who watches" allows far more direct responses because you automatically have given weight to all the factors it is well to consider before speaking (how you feel about the person, some social or societal reaction to a specific topic or situation, hangover reactions from childhood or teen years, etc.)

2. You realize that there is no possibility that everyone will like you and approve of you and what you say and do. And you also know that if some people don't like you, it's not going to kill you. You can be more courageous because you have a realistic understanding of the risks.

3. You have learned how to tell if something is or isn't your responsibility. You know more or less how much responsibility you can guarantee to follow-through on and you refuse to accept responsibility when necessary.

4. Like Miss Marple (Agatha Christie's elderly sluth) you recognize in someone's behavior traits you've observed in the past and you can be alert to the possibility that in some way the situations might be similar. Without prejudging on person on the basis of the behavior of another, you can be alert to danger signals you wouldn't have perceived at an earlier time.

Obviously, there's more to it than this but it's necessary to limit this response in size. LOL And the sub-topic of "who makes a Priest, Elder, etc." is not only somewhat extraneous to the discussion and a question which has been debated since the first Non-Gardnerian Wiccan went public, it's also one which I trust will never be solved. Much as it irritates me to see ignorant 20-year-olds being named Elders, that's a whole lot better than having a central authority would be.

Elders And Their Importance Jun 4th. at 5:55:33 pm EDT

Quill Mastercraft (South Bend, IN) Age: 41 - Email - Web

We definitely need elders, but the right type of elders.
I wrote about this topic some time ago, and the piece can be
found at the listed link.

People like Grant Pontius, chair of the Michiana Pagan Alliance,
or Lon Milo DuQuette, are excellent examples of elders. Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

 1    2    3    4    5    6  

Pagan Essays

Pagan Web
8,000 Links

Pagan Groups
Local Covens etc.

80,000 Profiles

Home - TWV Logos - Email US - Privacy
News and Information

Chapters: Pagan/Heathen Basics - Pagan BOOKS - Traditions, Paths & Religions - Popular Pagan Holidays - TV & Movies - Cats of the Craft - Festival Reviews - Festival Tips - White Pages (Resources) - Issues/Concerns - West Memphis 3 - Witch Hunts - Pagan Protection Tips - Healing Planet Earth

Your Voices: Adult Essays - Young Pagan Essays - Pagan Perspectives (On Hold) - WitchWars: Fire in the Craft - Gay Pagan - Pagan Parenting - Military - Pagan Passages

Pagan Music: Pagan Musicians - Bardic Circle at WitchVox - Free Music from TWV

Vox Central: About TWV - Wren: Words, Wrants and Wramblings - Guest Rants - Past Surveys - A Quest for Unity

Weekly Updates: Click HERE for an index of our weekly updates for the past 6 years

W.O.T.W. - World-Wide Networking

Your Town: A Link to YOUR Area Page (The largest listing of Witches, Pagans, Heathens and Wiccans on the Planet)

VoxLinks: The Pagan Web: 8,000 Listings

Your Witchvox Account: Log in Now - Create New Account - Request New Password - Log in Problems

Personal Listings: Pagan Clergy in Your Town - Adult Pagans - Young Pagans - Military Pagans

Events: Circles, Gatherings, Workshops & Festivals

Covens/Groups/Orgs: Local Groups Main Page

Other LOCAL Resources: Local Shops - Regional Sites - Local Notices - Global/National Notices - Local Skills & Services - Local Egroups - Political Freedom Fighters

Pagan Shopping: Online Shops Index - Original Crafters Sites - Auction Sites - Pagan Wholesalers - Pagan Local Shops

Web Site Content (including: text - graphics - html - look & feel)
Copyright 1997-2018 The Witches' Voice Inc. All rights reserved
Note: Authors & Artists retain the copyright for their work(s) on this website.
Unauthorized reproduction without prior permission is a violation of copyright laws.

Website structure, evolution and php coding by Fritz Jung on a Macintosh G5.

Any and all personal political opinions expressed in the public listing sections (including, but not restricted to, personals, events, groups, shops, Wren’s Nest, etc.) are solely those of the author(s) and do not reflect the opinion of The Witches’ Voice, Inc. TWV is a nonprofit, nonpartisan educational organization.

Sponsorship: Visit the Witches' Voice Sponsor Page for info on how you
can help support this Community Resource. Donations ARE Tax Deductible.
The Witches' Voice carries a 501(c)(3) certificate and a Federal Tax ID.

Mail Us: The Witches' Voice Inc., P.O. Box 341018, Tampa, Florida 33694-1018 U.S.A.