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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 5,570,983  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 56

Lurker/Post Ratio: 585 to 1

Question of the Week: 93 - 1/6/2003

Should Pagans Apply For Federal Funds?

Under the new U.S. ‘faith-based’ initiatives, religious groups cannot be denied federal money if they otherwise qualify for a social service program grant. Should Pagans go for a piece of that pie?

Do you think that an openly Pagan organization, all qualifications being met, would have a real chance at obtaining funding from the current administration?

What about the separation of church and state issue?

Federal funds and tax money going to religious organizations in order to provide social programs: A good idea or not?

 Reponses:   There are 56 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


If You Can ... Jan 13th. at 1:30:42 am UTC

magus jinx (washington state) Age: 47 - Email


I think that if a person or group needs and can qualify for assistance then they deserve to recieve it. Unfortunately that does not always work in this world ... not only in this country ....


No ! No ! A Thousand Times No! Jan 13th. at 1:25:18 am UTC

Barena (St. Louis, Missouri) Age: 50 - Email


I have worked in the social service field for many many Years. I am acqiunted with many witches who are also professionaly involved in providing direct service to the community in a variety of settings. Oftren, I have wondered if I should open an agency to benefit pagan families that are in need of practicla assistance with housing, food medical etc...or whose families have been causght up in the system ins=some adverse way. But I know from experience that once an organization or group accepts federal or state grant monies...immediately the political repercussions begin, the controls are set in place and the squeeze is on to make them comform to trends that are currently endorsed by the funding sources. I say we sell out the Goddess, put our rare and precious freedoms and practices as pagans at risk. We are a mystery religion. Let's stay that way. A privately funded social service agency geared toward the pagan community and pagan parenting would be more on the mark. Contact me if anyone is interested. Any pagan from Sabbatsmeet in St. Louis can identify me. Blessed be.


Yes But It Won't Matter. Jan 12th. at 10:42:30 pm UTC

emmie (Tennessee) Age: 19 - Email


Yes of course Pagans should be allowed and should get the loans. The problem is things just don't/won't happen like that. Alot of us and especially those who live in the bible belt live in fear admit your different and take the critisism and when we don't go and apply for funds we're due we suffer in return. In small towns everyone knows everything about everyone. I love who I am and what I stand for, but opening my mouth will get me nothing but scorn, sometimes its hard to not allow anger to take over when I hear someone whisper about me, somtimes its hard not to just buy a huge Pentacle covered flag and just fly it in my front yard proudly. I am proud of who I am but sometimes pride doesn't have to be shown. It's in my heart and in my soul look into my eyes and there you'll see it. There will be a day some day I hope where no-one has to live with the fear they will be harmed because they believe differently. I just wish we could truly have equal rights like other religions do.


We Can Apply--but Will We Receive? Jan 12th. at 2:22:12 pm UTC

CloudWalker (Wisconsin) Age: 54 - Email


I am a Pagan business owner that is in the process of asking for a business grant.
I am wondering which would be better --to say I am a woman or that I am a Pagan woman that owns a business? It seems that both would be a 'minority' and the Government is always saying they want to help the poor oppressed minorities!
I am just starting my business and any help would be a great help.


Does It Really Make A Diffrence Who You Are? Jan 12th. at 10:57:16 am UTC

Lorie (Jackson) Age: 27 - Email


I live down south and religion is not a faith it is how society lives here. "I do not know how may times co workers and friends have asked What church do you go to?" or how many times my boss has prayed at our staff meetings. I wish I could voice my opinion but I feel if I do I would get fired because I dont believe what they think I should belive. church & state ae not separated in the south. I have choosed which path to be on but I can not make every respect it. My family has total understanding and they think I have choosen the right path but try explaning that to a stranger.

Pagans should qualify for any grant just like other people. It should not matter what they belive. America was based on freedom of religion. So it should not matter.


Let The Christian Government Keep Its Money,we Need It Not Jan 12th. at 2:32:13 am UTC

Aurora (Middle Island,NY) Age: 48 - Email


Yes,Blessed of the Goddess,we pagans of all sorts need not to bow down to those who hate us,and wish us and wish only our distruction. Ours is the spirit,yea,the streangh to endure,persiver,and flurish by our own efforts,and the blessings of the Goddess. Indeed,we should seek out those who are of our own belifes,and commit our moneyies to the building up of their businesses,the purchase of lands in to which we can fill with pagan communities,and bring about a glorious,peacefull,and purposefull force for good,and light,and balance in these United States,and Et Orbi. Together,we can turn the tide of the Hendonistic religions,and make our selfs respectfull in their eyes. Howevern, we should be causious to not lose our unique,and mysterious ways,in traid for this respecBlessed Be all of the Goddess,who ever they are


Maybe... Jan 11th. at 9:45:52 pm UTC

Liz (NC) Age: 15 - Email


Maybe we should. I think this would be a great way to PUT A STOP to this thing. We need ask for the federal funds(and make sure that some of those fundies hear about it) and 1. if they refuse to give it to us then we have an excellent arguement to put a stop to it 2. if we DO get the federal funds, those fundies who heard about it would get all up in arms trying to prevent that from happening(so they might call off the religious fund deal altogether). Well,i think that by applying for the funds we might could get some sort of thing going against them(and maybe stopping them altogether?).


Why Not? Jan 11th. at 3:39:05 pm UTC

squib (Oregon) Age: 32 - Email


We pay taxes, too. We're going to be funding these programs for other faiths. No reason why any pagan organization can't go for a shot at the pie. Of course, various organizations will raise a stink, and let them. If we have to pay for something we disagree with, its no excuse for them to complain about the same thing. I'd love to see a Satanist group get funded. That'd be a scream.


We've Come So Far Without.... Jan 11th. at 1:26:22 am UTC

Eldryn Moonsong (Southern Ontario, Canada) Age: 30 - Email


We, collectively speaking as Pagans (be we Witches, Wiccans, Goths, Druids, or any other sort), are a movement that is continuously expanding and making a hell of a resurgence into the mainstream of society. Yet there remains (and Goddess willing, let it always be so) that little element of Mystery to our Ways.

As I am sure many of you would agree, I would like nothing better than for the North American governments (speaking as a Canadian in an American forum)to see beyond the veil of prejudice and centuries-old hatred and welcome us back. WON'T HAPPEN! The structure of North American society is based upon (mainly) Christian/Catholic ethics, and "they" are afraid to let that go, even if it means letting the persecution continue. If George can't recognize the Craft as a real faith (and I imagine Chretien et al can't, either) then where does that leave us? In the shadows, mystical and mysterious. Islam, sadly, is the most hated religion at the moment for obvious reasons, but it IS recognized as a legitimate faith.

Why, then should we go begging for table scraps from those who would see us burn in their Hell? They themselves will burn in their own hatred and self-righteousness until they either see the horrors they commit for what they are, or are consumed by said hatred altogether. THAT will be the time for us, my Brothers and Sisters. We are not a warlike people, but let us continue the fight for Mother Earth under our own steam. Let us not be drawn into "their" ways by taking their money and letting them dictate how we should spend it, and consequently invade our methods of worship to avoid sullying the government's image (like it isn't already).

We've come so far without help, proving that we are a strong people. We use our strength for healing and goodness in our little corners of the land. I believe that it is because of the oppression that we have become so strong and will continue to grow. The day will come when "they" will turn to us for guidance, as was done in the old days. So for now, let's just spread the light around where we see darkness, and keep the Mysteries for ourselves. They are more valuable than money.


Powerful Community Support Jan 10th. at 6:00:39 pm UTC

TishMaran (The Berkshires/W.Massachusetts) Age: 27 - Email - Web


I definitly think that IT IS possible for Pagan organizations to gain federal support/funds at this time within the United States. We are, to an extent, recognized of our religious rights, however, I agree with the many who caution us against simply getting involved with government-related religious funding schema because we are "ONE OF THE MANY BONAFIDE AMERICAN RELIGIONS, AND WE DESERVE TO BE LOVED AND RESPECTED AND COMPENSATED FOR OUR WORK JUST LIKE CHRISTIANS, JEWS, AND BUDDHISTS AND OTHERS".
We Pagans do deserve to be loved and respected like the other religions.
But what if intimate political and economic connections with the federal agency eventually, "waters-us-down", dilutes the 'unknowable and mysterious character' that forms a part of all of our PaganPaths, and this because it might be considered to be too vague, not logical or straight-foward enough, in need of "cleaning-up"-an analogy to similarly-used words spake in the early Inquisition in relation to removing the Pagan 'filth' that covered the French and German countryside.
Nowadays, where religious toleration is 'class-ay', any watering-down may not even be for malicious reasoning: you know that the western (i.e., W.Europe/North America) national governments were all originally founded on a Christian, logic-centered, imperialist ideal, and that this will not change simply by political/economic inclusion into federal endeavors of Paganism and it's specific traditions. Pagans will need to be a visible force for at least another 30 years for Paganism to BECOME a part of the 'overt' American Tradition.

Personally speaking, the best way to Paganly proceed in this new century is to keep money in our communities as has been the way of many Jewish communities in the Old and New world. We should keep money in our communities to build temples, homes, libraries, laboratories, clinics etc., and these will be ours alone, as we had worked for them without aid. We should be staunch about preserving our way of life by ALWAYS supporting the Pagan elements around us and creating community money-pots to which Pagan families, groups, businesses, and individuals will contribute.
Unfortunately, I think that WHEN our covens, groves, temples and circles have enough resources to be self-sufficient and function at the high-output that many of us want, THEN we should ask for federal grants that we can take, or not, thereby not relying on these funds, and in the long run crippling the life force of Paganism by making it subject to outside funds which could be withdrawn "on a day when the governemnt was 'not happy with it's people'".

Also, many of us have, as our notion of a "traditonal successful religion" the thought of an organisation that is well established, and has an extremely intact hierarchy giving it branches and aggregates in every land, and in every culture-the Christian Faith precisely. I'm not saying that we Pagans believe that that religion is successful or traditonal, but that it has been our "world-model" for a flourishing religious tradtion for many centuries, and that we may unconsciously try to model ourselves and our new burgeoning faith upon this very expansive and even invasive way of worship. One major reason that we have gorgeous, expensive Catholic Christian churches on every corner in some Northeast towns and cities (and also in Europe), is because, for years the Christain government in Europe's Middle Ages exacted tithes of income on every worker and family in the land, and had other forms of 'unscrupulous' methods for income. The Church's financial holdings were great enough, for enough centuries, to build these expensive stone masterpieces up until the mid 1900's. Their money does not come from bake-sales or bingo-games. We cannot, in the Pagan community expect, that as we become stronger and more accepted, that we are eventually going to have lavish Witch Temples in every city and town, and be able to afford luxury cars for all our clergy and other things. Or maybe we can expect that we will form our strong communties quickly, as has been so far the case, and that we will become a very prosperous community which will be able to afford each and every amenity and allow other pagans in the community to live well too.

Let's keep an owl's-eye, a rabbit's-ear, and a Witch's-mind wide open to monitor the subtle undercurrent of what is happenning in the relationship between Paganism and the U.S. government.
Remember too, history clearly states and demonstrates the emnity and unfinished-business that exists between Christianity and Islam, and which has existed for centuries. These two religions are really at war under the surface of this present political strife. Let's see what THEY do first, it surely will be telling.

All in all, lets keep lobbying for our rights and freedom, everyone should at least read the Malleus Malificarum, and keep in mind that there is a rich,fundamentalist Christian vein in this governement which is threatened by the it's own Catholic cousin!; how do they really feel about us?

I LOVE YOU ALL my Pagan Parents and Children, my Sisters and Brothers
May we ALL Be Blessed of our Souls
May we ALL use our Powers Wisely and Effectively for that "Evolution of Love"
May the Gods open our Spirits and Communicate with us and Protect always our travels and travails
May we each MASTER Beauty and Strength, Power and Compassion, Honor and Humility, and Mirth and Reverence - each our own ways, and each as is right...


What About The Faithless?? Jan 10th. at 5:42:07 pm UTC

Autumn_eve (Greenville, NC) Age: 19 - Email


Could we have a faith-based initiative without
discriminating against anyprobable atheist,
agnostic, humanist, etc. organizations? Besides, Bush
has made it blatantly obvious that he does not consider
Wicca to be a religion (let alone any other "alternative" type
religions, for lack of a label). I doubt we'd get a piece of the pie at
all because he probably wouldn't consider us a candidate for it.
Why can't we just get some people to go out with the money to help the
needy? Who cares if its a mission or a Wiccan group or an atheist group?
To a homeless person a roof is a roof and a meal is a meal. To an
abused woman, shelter is shelter and safety is safety. If someone is
willing to do the work to help someone out, and they can prove that any
funds given to them will be used for that reason, the government
should try to help. It shouldn't matter who they believe in, just that
they're a good enough person to help!


Government -> Pagan Money? Jan 10th. at 5:18:03 am UTC

Owl Starshadow (Aliso Viejo) Age: 17 - Email


I applaud Alice, in her view that "no large business, and the government is basically a business, ever gives away something for nothing."

When September 11th hit, America's rallying cry was "God and Country," under the twin symbols of the Christian Cross and the Stars and Stripes. (Which turns this whole fiasco in Iraq and in Afghanistan into an American-led jihad, but I'll not go any further there.) We are currently in a time where many ultra-conservative WASPs have taken control of the government through the Religious Right. (Look at who Bush named as Supreme Court Justices.) I am trying very hard not to point fingers or flame anyone, but I think it does need to be said that this policy seems to be aimed much more at the Christian community than at *anyone* else, including Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and yes, Pagans. Frankly, I don't think they'd give it to us without us being either dragged through the mud or forced to give up other rights, less obvious but equally tangible.

Just because it says on paper that a group cannot be denied if other qulifications are met does not mean that this is how it is in practice. Look to the "Jim Crow" laws of some parts of the Deep South, long after segregation was illegalized. Or to same-sex couples across the US who seek to adopt children and are regularly discriminated against for their orientation.

Moreover, (at the risk of finger-pointing again,) accepting government money is something that organizations have done in the past for less-than-honest purposes. In my mind, religion and money are a very dangerous combination (ie, the Roman Catholic Church throughout the Dark Ages). It tends to dissolve the separation of church and state and fuse them together into one very powerful entity. The same example of the Catholic Church (and I really don't mean to stir the pot again, my apologies!) gave us religious fanaticism in the form of the Witch-hunts, the Inquisition...

I don't think it's a good idea for the government to be handing out money to any religious groups at all: the ones who will get the most are the ones who are most extreme in their views and most vocal about it: they will receive all of the attention and with it, all of the money.


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