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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 14,394,669  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 95

Lurker/Post Ratio: 344 to 1

Question of the Week: 34 - 3/26/2001

What Are Your Views on Abortion, Euthanasia and Suicide?

What are your personal views on the issue of abortion, euthanasia and suicide? Do you consider these as individual and personal decisions or are they moral, religious or ethical 'crimes'? Does society-or the majority view (religious or otherwise) have the right to 'regulate' such actions or does the individual have the personal 'right' to decide whether to have an abortion or take their own life through euthanasia r suicide? CAUTION: These topics are very emotionally charged ones. Please do not attack or respond directly to another's posting, but rather simply state your own opinion on the matter. Anyone who wishes to debate the topics further via email with others can state so in his/her posting. Postings directly attacking another individual will be removed.

 Reponses:   There are 95 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Well I'm A Guy So I Don't Think I Can't Say That... Mar 31st. at 8:15:39 pm EST

Jerry (Kalamazoo, Michigan US) Age: 17 - Email


Well I'm a guy so i don't think i can't say that much on the abortion issue. That is somthing that the woman will have to live with for the rest of their lives. I think that women should have the right to choose what they want going on their bodies but I will never have to feel what ever it is a woman feels over abortion. As far as suicide goes, I personaly think that it is up to the person. No one has the right to tell anyone when and if they can die by their own hands. It is not for society to decide.


These Are Tricky Issues. I've Dealt With All Three On A Personal... Mar 31st. at 7:32:19 pm EST

Wendy B. (Shreveport, Louisiana US) Age: 33


These are tricky issues. I've dealt with all three on a personal level, and so have given them considerable thought. My husand is a psychiatrist, so I usually think of suicide as something that issues from mental illness and should be prevented, except in the case of a person who has a terminal illness and is choosing to die with dignity while s/he is still capable of doing the job without dragging in a helper (which seems to me to be a weak and selfish thing to do to a loved-one -- ask them to kill you, that is). Euthanasia I think should be avoided, except insofar as it can be accomplished simply by withholding extreme care. I think starving or dehydrating a person who is still drawing breath on their own is cruel. We don't know what they might experience, so unless their wishes were made clear while they were of sound mind, I don't think we have the right to make that decision for them. And abortion is the hardest: it's by grace, not virtue, that I never had to make that choice, and I am ever thankful that I never did. I don't think I could live with myself having terminated my own offspring. Yet there are certainly cases where I can imagine being thankful for having the choice to do it safely.


I Do Not Believe That Euthanasia Or Suicide Is Proper Or Ethical... Mar 31st. at 6:32:13 pm EST

Ron Parker (Independence, Missouri US) Age: 41 - Email


I do not believe that Euthanasia or Suicide is proper or ethical. Life is a rare gift given by the Gods and should be treated as such. As far as Abortion, I do not believe in the use of it as a form of birth control. However, the ultimate discision on abortion is and should be left to the woman as it is her body.


Abortion Is Something Only The Person Carring The Fetus Can Decide On... Mar 31st. at 2:59:06 pm EST

Rev. Ruby Mann (Jackson, Michigan US) Age: 54 - Email


Abortion is something only the person carring the fetus can decide on. I think every woman should have that right to decide. They should be legal and those that have an abortion should have counseling suggested to them to cope with the situation.

Euthanasia: I would like to die with dignity. If this must happen via a drug overdose given me by my doctor or loved ones so be it. I do not consider it murder but do consider making a person reamin "alive" while in pain and suffering to be curel and unhumane punishment. This would have to be a decision made before the need arisies while the patient is in a good mental state.

Suicide: this subject is difficult for me because I have seen the effects of a teen suicide on his family and friends. Done in a fit of anger or deep depression, it must be the only way the person can see to escape from his/her problems. Not realizing how many problems they are creating for those they leave behind with no answers to the questions. it should not be a spiritual matter, rather a medical or psychological one.

The first thing that always comes to my mind is "cowards way out". Could they not try to find the answers to their problems in another way? What drives them to destroy themselves? Are they cowards or heros? I have so many questions when it comes to suicide.


On Abortion, I Can Only Say That It A Purly Individual Choice... Mar 31st. at 9:50:39 am EST

Moonhawk Elfchild (Owego, New York US) Age: 46 - Email


On abortion, I can only say that it a purly individual choice. I don't think that it can, or should be regulated in any way. I don't like the thought of it being used as a form of birth control, there are simpler and less painful ways, and also think that both parties should be involved, unless the situation dictates otherwise. Euthinasia, also, is a peraonal choice. Each of us should be able to determine when the pain of illness becomes to much to bear. I, myself have a no execptional measure clause in a living will. If I'm going to die anyway, let me do so with dignity and honor.
Suicide is a bit more complicated. It is the final act of desperation. Many who contemplate suicide are being self-centered, whether they realize it or not, and never take into consideration the pain, doubt, and lingering questions they leave behind as a legacy to everyone who loves them. I have had a friend commit suicide and, even though it happened many years ago, my thoughts are still haunted by the pain and unanswered questions. There is also a measure of personal guilt that never goes away. With all of the help that is readily available, it should be preventable. I truely wish that those who contmplate suicide would first seek the help they need.


Abortion (imho) Is A Far Separate Issue From Euthanasia & Suicide, And I... Mar 31st. at 4:04:20 am EST

Nion (Tacoma, Washington US) Age: 41


Abortion (IMHO) is a far separate issue from euthanasia & suicide, and I will address it as such. I must make a stand on the side of "CHOICE" where legal regulation must be involved and I believe the over-riding public health concern should be in making abortion both less desirable and less necessary. This end can only be accomplished through proper reproductive (note I don't call it 'sex') education with full knowledge and availability of preventive tools and techniques and alternatives such as good maternal health care and access to adoption without stigma. I cannot take seriously any anti-abortion argument that declines to first address these issues before attempting to further restrict and stigmatize women of childbearing capacity.

Euthanasia and suicide have some vague overlaps. My being a nurse who works in extended care w/the elderly and chronically ill, as well as having worked in a psychiatric hospital gives me a view of both.

I find myself much more concerned over euthanasia and end of life issues.
Euthanasia is far from a one point issue, and tends to be a hot-button word, automatically associated with so-called "mercy killing".

The actual meaning comes from two words in Greek: "EU" meaning well or good and "THANOS" meaning death. Properly addressing the needs and comfort of those facing the end of life may eliminate much percieved need for active Euthanasia a la the Hemlock Society. I find myself believing more and more that any person who purports the Wiccan Rede or other similar statement, needs to look at the business of end-life through the lens of the Rede. Too often I see individuals and families agonizing through making decisions that the individual should have already put into some written form. CPR (Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation)and Life-support are the first two, and they are quite separate issues from both medical and legal standpoints. To _harm_none_, it is vital to address in the case of an individual seeking "Eu Thanos" or "Good Death".

The third thing to address is adequate pain relief. People in severe pain don't much care to eat & drink adequately, and can't properly rest. These combine to make the person more uncomfortable and exacerbates the problem in a downward spiral of misery. Modern medicine is revamping it's standards on pain treatment and there has been at least one successful malpractice suit for
under-treatment of pain in a terminal individual of which I am aware.
If you are a decision maker for anyone in end-life, _harm_none_ and ensure they recieve adequate treatment.


Suicide Is A Person Making Their Own Decision About Their Life Without... Mar 31st. at 2:11:18 am EST

IvyDancing (West Palm Beach, Florida US) Age: 49 - Email


Suicide is a person making their own decision about their life without direct physical affect upon another. It's OK in my opinion. Abortion during the first trimester, before a spirit has inhabited the foetus, is probably OK too. Second and third trimester abortions are probably wrong. Euthanasia is wrong. But not using extreme measures to prolong life like breathing machines, etc., is OK, provided the wishes of the person are being followed. Physical life is a gift of the Gods. We shouldn't waste a moment of it. But once it's over, it's time for the spirit to move on.


Hello, I Am A 15 Year Old Male That Has Some Strong... Mar 31st. at 1:51:29 am EST

Silver Dragonfly (Sedalia, Missouri US) Age: 15 - Email


Hello, I am a 15 year old male that has some strong opinions on all of these issuses (and please excuse my spelling I have problems with it and always have). Ill start with my views on Abortion, I believe that it is ok some times, these times are Rape, inability to support the child and abortion is not an option for what ever reason, if you are in a abuseve relation ship (you should get out if you are but if you are...) and the child will be abused, and lastly falls into that of the rape, incest hopefully by accadent or rape.

Ok now for Euthanasia, I think it is ok as long as you have thought about it and have talked to a psycholigest (once again please ignore my spelling) and spoke about it with your family. i know that if i were dieing painfuly and slowly and there was no doubt that i was to die i would have it done.

And lastly Suicide, i feel that if you felt you had no other way out and you could not talk to anyone and things were really that bad you can do it, but i am going to give you some advice on how to do it (well not exactly how to do it but you will see what i mean) KEEP IT CLEAN...no guns, no knives, if you are going to do it do it do it clean i dont care how but keep it clean, think of the person that will find you, make it less tramatic for them, would you rather walk in on a body or a bloody mess? i know that was graphic but you get what i mean. i have thoguht about and almost committed suicide but i am proud to say that i dont have the "guts", or maby somehow i know that im here for some higher pourpse. i have been told that by a few psychics that i trust in.

For all 3 of the above reasons i am not a popular kid at school, this used to boher me but Wicca has tought me to say "heck with what others think" and to do what i think is right as well as say what i think and dont be asshamed of yourself. i yet again appoligise for my spelling. and if you wish to speek with me about anything please E-Mail me or if you have yahoo add me to your Friends list so that we can chat about it (put "Saw your reply at WitchVox.com" or something like that so that i know who you are in a way)

"May the Goddess light your way on the path of Life" ~Silver Dragonfly

MP and BB
Silver Dragonfly


Abortion, Euthanasia, And Suicide...quite A Combination For One Post. But A... Mar 30th. at 10:24:44 pm EST

Artemis13 (Seacoast, New Hampshire US) Age: 36


Abortion, euthanasia, and suicide...quite a combination for one post. But a combination that I understand.

At one time or another, I have faced and/or seen all of these decisions, both for and against. In my late teens and early twenties, I knew of, and consoled, many young women faced with choosing to terminate their pregnancies. One young woman chose not to have her child, the result of a rape that took her virginity. She said that her mother dropped out of school to have her and her mother wanted her life to be worth something. Another friend dropped out of school to have her child, believing that having a family would make her complete; she then needed to move away from the area to escape a boyfriend (the father) who was beating her. Both women made a choice that was best one they could make for that point in their lives. I do not believe that I, or you, have the right to force them to make a choice that they are not prepared, or equipped, to deal with. Like a pebble thrown in the water, the choice to have or not have a child impacts not only the mother and the child, but all members of their family and community. Until the time arises where all women can support themselves, all children are wanted and accepted by society, and those who already exist in this world are considered valuable, women must, at the very least, have control of their bodies.

Euthanasia is another concept that Western society has a hard time grasping. Perhaps it is because of the Christian dominance in our country that makes the subject so repulsive to many. But to see this issue clearly, it would help to see the issue through the eyes of someone who faces the choice. For four years I watched my beloved uncle waste away in a nursing home. In the blink of an eye, a vibrant 89 year old man, who worked to help elderly "shut-ins", had a stroke that briefly terminated his life. The EMT's who worked to save him never realized the terms of his living will. He was brought back to life, but at a heavy cost; paralyzed, unable to speak or move, he signed and "asked" us to end his life. In agony we watched him slowly die for four years until the fluid in his lungs suffocated him. Even though I am young, my own disease is considered "terminal" by my insurance company and I live each day knowing that if I did not take my medication, I would be dead in about five days. Do I want to know that my life can be ended if the complications take over? You better believe it. Quality of my life is more than some abstraction to be mulled over and discussed in a forum. I have lived my life on my terms, with as much dignity as I can hold for myself and others who love me. For anyone who believes they can tell me otherwise, well, frankly, I don't give a damn.

Which brings us to our final subject, that of suicide. The thought crossed my mind once or twice when faced with what I felt was a never-ending pit of despair but I decided I couldn't cheat myself out of my life. As Fate would have it, my profession as a counselor brought me into contact with many of the darker feelings and emotions that many other people do not wish to face. I have heard the stories and feelings of others, including depression, anxiety, pain, and suffering as we people struggle to heal. I have been relieved and elated when clients move beyond the need for suicide and heal themselves. I have also cried in sorrow for a client who couldn't. Yet one thing I have tried to remember was that the choice to live and the choice to die is one that each of us would see differently. I would do everything in my power to convince someone of the different options other than suicide, but I have had to accept that I am not the one in control of another person's life. I feel that to accept other people's choices is the best way to ensure my own.

I live the Goddess as a part of myself and believe in Her that the choices I make will be the best ones for me. But just because it's best for me, doesn't mean it's best for you.


Abortion Is Legal, And As It Should Be." That's From My Friend... Mar 30th. at 7:46:14 pm EST

pat james "haven't thought of a clever name STILL" mannix (lancaster , Pennsylvania US) Age: 16 - Email


"Abortion is legal, and as it should be." That's from my friend, Razz, and it's the smartest thing he's ever said (in that it's the only smart thing he's ever said.) I will begin with something that I notoriously post on abortion discussion boards-- It has been documented that a child's aura appears upon their first breath- just something I thought some of you might find thought provoking. Not everyone believes in auras, though. (In fact, one imbecile once told me that she would believe in auras when she read about them in the Bible. I doubt the Bible mentions the hole in the ozone, but it's there, though most Christian fundamentalists are Republicans and as such, do not believe in environmental crises anyway.)

No one can prove that at any point prior to birth that a fetus is a soulful being. Anti-choicers can wait as long as they want, but I don't expect fetuses to start speaking up. The mother? Well, it makes no difference to some people whether she is happy, even alive. But can anyone tell a womyn that she possesses no soul? Of course not (unless the person does not accept the existence of souls, and would then not believe the fetus to possess one anyhow.) Sic, why should a being of arguable soulfulness' life be threatened because of what cannot be proven to be more than a mass of flesh? Oh, and the Celts that we owe our very spirituality to were very pro-choice.

Suicide? Again, I'm "pro-choice." I guess most anarchists are
"pro-choice" on a lot of issues, hmm? Indeed, you have control over your life only when you have control over your death. Keep in mind that your body is here to do the Goddess' work, though. There. By the way, are we all depressive, ex-suicicidals on here?

Euthanasia? Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Not wrong. Life imprisonment? No, thank you. But that's just me (or for grammatical sake, that's just I.) People should really think about whether or not they want their children pulling the plug.


I Believe That These Decisions Are Individual Ones. I Know That If... Mar 30th. at 5:58:11 pm EST

Silver (Calgary, Alberta CA) Age: 20


I believe that these decisions are individual ones. I know that if I needed or were to choose one of these options for myself at one time or another during my life, I would not want to have to worry about what the bueracracy (sp?) was going to do, and whether or not they were illegal. I am very much pro-choice, I believe that it is a woman's choice whether or not to have an abortion, a person's choice whether or not to commit suicide, or for the terminally ill to use euthanasia to end their pain and suffering. Though I would be saddened by someone's choice to commit suicide or euthanasia, I would also respect their choice. Brightest blessings, Silver.


Abortion, Suicide, And Euthanasia. Wow. Let Me Start With A Disclaimer. Obviously... Mar 30th. at 4:34:25 pm EST

mik63033 (ferguson, Missouri US) Age: 40 - Email


Abortion, suicide, and euthanasia. Wow. Let me start with a disclaimer. Obviously, these are 3 of the biggest buzzsaw-to-the-nerve words around. So, by their very nature (along with the first or second-hand experience some have had in these matters), i could be sprinkling salt into wounds. If this is the case, please know that's not my wish or intention. These are just my values that reside in the core of my spirit.

I could sum these up with live and let live - literally - with the emphasis on live. Now i'm going to seemingly contradict myself. I always have been and always will be pro-choice. That is i am for my or any other woman's right to choose abortion. As much as i love animals, i distinguish myself from cows for instance, because they have no choice in their reproduction. Besides, i'm one of those poetical types who actually believes life begins at birth. (for our purposes anyway) I think we have limited resources and limited foresight in would-be parents who have no business being parents. (i know i have no business being a parent) I'm not saying these people should not be allowed to have children, by the same token though, i shouldn't be forced to, and i'm getting real nervous about the supreme court situation. Prior to the recent selection err...election, Susan Sarandon was on "Queen Latifah" plugging Ralph Nader. A young woman who couldn't have been more than 16 got up and asked her if she wasn't concerned about who would pick the next Supreme Court appointee and she condescendingly replied "..you don't have too much faith in your sisters then." Phyllis Shlafly would be proud. And Susan Sarandon's annoying. I'm digressing i know, but i do feel a lot lighter and springier.

As a Wiccan i believe in reincarnation. We choose each present incarnation to experience, learn, or work through what we haven't in our past lives. At a certain point then are we to dwell with the Goddess and the God. If you take your life, you're cutting your studytime short and will only have more homework. Not the most pleasant scenario. All my life i have been against suicide. This might sound really trite, self-righteous, and arrogant, but i just don't believe in giving up. Or in. I truly believe that that which doesn't kill us can make us stronger. Given time and reflection. Either private or professional. And there's the selfishness of the act. Sometimes even anger directed at the ones closest to the person, or who're suppossed to be closest to the person. I can't help thinking that when my brother's friend hung himself in the family basement on Mother's Day, it was no coincidence. The Goddess granted us these lives. I don't know what causes a person to lose all interest in their claim to them and to lose all hope. Because i have been depressed (not chemically) I have been lonely. I have been fed up. But a basic instinct to survive has always been there. And i hope it always will.

This last one, euthanasia - to me is the worst. I believe in making every effort to sustain life. I realize it has become a popular movement with it's own P.C. slogan: "quality of life". That little phrase has so many meanings and is so subjective i'm not even gonna touch it. I personally don't think "Pulling the Plug" should be an option. We're not talking toasters. And we're not talking about "vegetables" either. And about the so-called brain-dead. I personally know plenty of people walking around who would for all intents and purposes fit that description. Can i then do the "humane" thing? Again the little feel-good phrase "quality of life" tends to pop up when someone has been diagnosed "brain-dead". But how can anyone know for sure what it's like unless they're in that skin? I honestly feel it's way too easy to pull the plug. It puts me in mind of some terrifying futuristic novel. And who really decides? Loved ones? Numbercrunchers? Loved ones who are numbercrunchers? Of course all those people getting Tempest's organs is a beautiful thing, and to those who've been faced with this nightmarish decision i again apologize if my words are coming off as judgemental or too harsh. I wouldn't be true to myself though if i automatically went along with the crowd. I realize i'm probably a minority of one. (i havn't read the other posts yet) These are just my beliefs and opinions, and there's just something about it that gos against my grain. For instance, what about the comatose who were written off only to mystify the "experts" when they awoke? There are those who ask about any pain. This might sound harsh again, but life is full of pain. And besides, what about painkillers or other ways to alleviate any possible pain? I personally, would rather take a chance of someone being in pain than play Goddess, and i certainly wouldn't want someone disconnecting my life-support. There's always going to be the spectre of cost rearing it's ugly head. Well, if we have enough in the budget for our "Defense" Dept...Where can we hospitalize them all? I understand there's going to be a lot of former wilderness land in Alaska going for cheap. Seriously though, i can't help thinking there's got to somehow be an alternative somewhere. All i know is Grandma Crone will come for us when she sees fit. As far as i'm concerned, She can take her time. And i pray Goddess i never have to be responsible for that decision.

Now that i've probably completely offended a lot of people, and have taken up WAY too much space, i'd like to stress my intention here was not to harm, just to express. My College Composition teacher told me i have a "colloqial" style. Maybe that's a euphamism. Again i'd like to thank this site for letting me express things that are very near and dear to me. Do me (and probably the readers) a favor and stop with the meaningful subject matter already, or i'll be compelled to put my 2 cents in again! I got it - next week's question: Should Britney go Backstreet or stay 'Nsync without Christina? Should we care?
Love and Brightest Blessings


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