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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 6,006,013  

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Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 263

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Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Greetings All. Kelly Eagle, You Were Just So Eloquent, And “right-on” In... Nov 11th. at 1:32:49 pm UTC

Raven (Johannesburg, South Africa) Age: 52 - Email


Greetings All. Kelly Eagle, you were just so eloquent, and "right-on" in your post that I really don't need to add much. I just ask that everyone re-read it.

I am very curious and befuddled why Witches across America, and especially the ones in Florida aren't "stirring their cauldrons" to preserve their religious freedoms. You all have worked SO HARD to advance them over the last few decades.

Okay, here’s a good one. There were three men in a bar…..No, wait that will be FOUR men BEHIND the bar—the Supreme Court Bar, that is---making decisions that will affect all of us for the next 25 to 30 years.

I voted for the Gore ticket, if for no other reason than to keep someone who does not recognize Witchcraft or the religion of the Wise out of the Oval Office. To think the American Court system could soon be populated with "Cotton Mathers" is almost too much to take in. And anyone who doesn’t think what transpires on the Supreme Court of the United States of America won’t have a ‘trickle down affect’ on lawyers across the nation is sadly mistaken.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."--Margaret Mead

Occasionally, in the course of human events there have been times when Witches have come together to 'correct' or 'adjust' matters that have gone horribly awry. One occasion that comes quickly to my mind is when the Witches gathered to repel Hitler from crossing the English Channel. I, myself, felt that Newt Gingrich and Kenneth Starr needed to be 'dealt' with, and I felt justified in doing what needed to be done to keep them from harming others and my country. I will not hesitate to do the same if I observe gross malfeasance such as starting ‘illegal’ wars, or attempting to abolish my right to worship as I please, or if the new administration purports any other nefarious acts. It isn't something I relish, but I will. By the way, one doesn't necessarily have to harm someone to get them ‘out of the way’ or keep them from harming others. How many of you (Witches) hasn’t gotten someone 'promoted' just to get them away from you for your own protection, or the protection of someone you love? Hmmm? One cannot "heal" a disease without doing injury to something, whether it is a parasite, cancer cell, or ‘what-have-you’. The gods/goddesses give us (entrust us with our) life and it is up to us to preserve that life and defend it, period. They give us herbs to heal and skills to protect. If the Bush/Cheney ticket wins, Witches, Pagans, et al are going to have their 'cauldrons full' for the next 4-8 years, and I suspect there will be a lot of "healing" spells woven into the tapestry of the Universe.---Brightest Blessings, Raven


I Voted For Gore. I Watched The Election Closely From The Time... Nov 11th. at 12:57:14 pm UTC

Kelly Eagle (Albuquerque, New Mexico US) Age: 41 - Email


I voted for Gore. I watched the election closely from the time I got home from work until I went to bed at 12:30am, crying hysterically because Bush had been declared the next president. I kept waking up praying, "Please, Dewey Beats Truman!" I woke up Wednesday to find this mess going on, a slim hope. I didn't like Bush Sr., and can't stand Shrub. I look at him and see the anti-choice, anti-environment, anti-gay, anti-religious freedom, anti-poor redneck attitudes I have had to put up with for decades. Daddy and his cronies put him in office in Texas (much to the regret of my Libertarian 2 sisters and 1 brother in Austin), he's done a crappy job there (after all, what other job has he ever held?) and his Bubba brother has quite conveniently made sure **only** the Democratic majority areas of "his" state have been disenfranchised.

I find it just **too** convenient a "coincidence" that the 19, 000 thrown-out votes and the 3, 000 "Buchanan" votes were all in one strongly Democratic county which, if left Democratic, would have pushed Gore over the top to presidential victory. The (admittedly unproven) stories of people being turned away from the polls and roadblocks preventing people from even arriving, and people standing in line for hours being shut out are absolutely horrendous. Bubba Jeb promised his brother was going to get Florida's 25, come hell or high water, and I have no doubt he and Daddy's CIA retirees rigged at least some of those things.

Having read what I've written, I know this sounds like a hateful diatribe, but really, just feels like "truth be told." I know Gore isn't the "perfect" candidate, and there were probably some "not quite clean" activities from his camp as well. But the blatant arrogant manner in which Bush's activities took place puts it right up there with Watergate as a "how stupid do they think we are" move.

One point I haven't seen addressed here at all is the "do as we say, not as we do" attitude. The US is constantly sending "observers" and "advisors" to third-world countries demanding that elections be re-done because they weren't done to "our" standards of fairness. If this situation had taken place in one of those "beginner democracies" the US government would be sitting on its high horse screaming for a re-vote. Shouldn't we act the way we tell the rest of the world is the "proper" way? A revote for the affected counties or for the entire state, "observed" by the national guard if necessary!

Another arrogant point being repeated ad nauseum by the Republicans is that, "If they made a mistake on their ballot, they should have asked for another one. EVERYONE knows that!" Excuse me? I may be admitting to stupidity here, but I've voted since 1976 and have NEVER ONCE been told, in civics class or at the polls, that if a mistake were made on a ballot you can ask for another one. I was always under the impression that you get one, and one only. How many of those 19, 000 were under the same impression? How many across the country were under the same impression?

Yes, the country's polarized. We've known that for a long time. Yes, the Congress will be deadlocked for the next two years. But, with a Republican in the White House, who'se to say Congress would stay deadlocked in 2002? Do we really want an ultra-conservative Republican majority with an ultra-conservative Republican president selecting the new Supreme Court justices? Too many issues nowadays -- religious, economic, social, and political -- are settled in those chambers for us not to live in terror of that occurance.

The last time I was even moderately politically active was 1980. (Ok, I admit, I was young and still registered my daddy's party - Republican!) If Shrub comes out on top on this one, I searched my soul to find out what the Goddess meant by it. The only thing I could come up with was that She wants us all to get off our complacent duffs and start being more involved in the process. No longer can we say, "We have our court-upheld rights, so there." Our court-upheld rights can be taken away, apparently, if the fundies want it bad enough. And, believe me, as one surrounded by them, THEY DO! They consider it a mandate from "GOD" that they wipe out all opposition, regardless of "rights." Rights are reserved for the religiously, politically, sexually, socially, monetarily correct.

And I haven't even **touched** on the mess here in New Mexico. But that's par for the course here, too. Bubba politics rule! Our Roundhouse (the State legislature building) is a sight to behold!

Ok, enough is enough. Like most of us, I could go on all day!

Blessed be, and good luck to us all!


Greetings No I Didn't Vote. I Wasn't Able To Make It To... Nov 11th. at 12:08:26 pm UTC

Matthew J. Lee (Dallas, Texas US) Age: 33 - Email


Greetings

No I didn't vote. I wasn't able to make it to where I'm registered and truthfully, I don't even care who wins. All this B.S. going on in Florida is ridiculous. Yes the people have a right to vote for the person of their choice. They also have the resposibility to vote, Yet with that you have the moral obligation to us that vote wisely and responsibily, if you don't you have no one to blame but yourself. They should count and certify under the current laws. Then the loser should bow out gracefully and supportive of the winner. Yet the winner needs to take in the fact he doesn't have a distinct majority.

So fighting it out in courts will do nothing but divide the nation and create apathy among the people. Along with riddicule among other Nations Which brings us to the greatest chance we'll have to come together as a nation and people. Which we should use and not let it pass us by. You think Imight be crazy to say that then let me explain.

1-Neither house has a clear majority they're pretty much evenly split nothing will be able to get done with out coming together and making compromises for the good of the country. We all know what will happen if they don't, and that I don't want to contemplate. But guess what happens when they do, you got it. It will be hard at first but with all things it will get easier when it becomes repetitive, then it will become the norm for Congress and should start flowing down to everything else.
2- The President will not have a distinct majority, just about half the country voted against him. If he's as smart as they want us to believe, He'll call for the country to unite together and find a middle ground for no one has the majority to push their dogma upon the people. For his job is to lead the people. Therefore he must remain above the mess and urge cooperation with out bias or party rhetoric.

3- We are the greatest democracy in the world. Other countrys are wacthing and questioning our system if it's as good as it realy made out to be. So since we're Americans and arrogantly so we will not let are political system be made out as a farce to be ridiculed or break down to anarchy as some have speculated.

Which brings me to the quetion on how this effects the Pagan community. First of all that comes to mind is a phrase my High Priestess Sylvia Bogart taught me from the beginning, WITH INFINITE INTELLIGENCE WE ARE ONE. Secondly is what Maeven Eller Of Betwixt & Between always says the INTER-NET SHOULD BE USED AS A TOOL AND NOT A WEAPON. With them two thoughts in mind and the partys so evenly split we can effectively unite and lead the charge to common ground.But first we have to unite as a community. Put aside diffrences of Traditions and so force to come together as a pagan community. If we don't we won't have a loud enought voice to be heard in the coming winds of change. We have an opportunity like never before so lets come together.

NEVER AGAIN THE BURNING TIMES SURVIVES AS MORE THEN A MANTRA AS LONG AS IT'S DEFENDED BY DEED.

Blessed Be
Rev. Matthew J. Lee
H.P. Church of the Old Ways
CHURCHOFTHEOLDWAYS@PRODIGY.NET


I Voted For Gore As The Lesser Of 2 Evils, I Felt... Nov 11th. at 11:03:59 am UTC

Stephanie (New Orleans, Louisiana US) Age: 45


I voted for Gore as the lesser of 2 evils, I felt that voting for a 3rd party candidate was a vote for Bush. For those of us that are sick of the 2 party system, it is necessary for us to be realistic about it. Before a 3rd party candidate ever gets elected to the Presidency, there will have to be many more 3rd party folks winning offices on local and state levels. We can work toward that after this election.

As to now, whoever gets in the White House will have 4 years of complete grid-lock. The House and Senate are almost equally divided and there will be much animosity by the opposite party of whoever gets in. This president will be a lame-duck president for 4 years with no chance for re-election. The only place such a president could possibly be effective would be in foreign policy. Bush could be devastating in this area. He doesn't even understand the various cultures in our country, much less other countries.

The really good thing about this election is that our electoral system will hopefully be brought into the 21st century. The electoral college will either be abolished or re-vamped with the delegates having to vote the people of their state. (I was appalled when I learned that 26 states gave the delegates the option of voting their choice instead of the people's choice). The idea that some counties are still "punching holes" in ballots in the year 2000 is ludicrous, I'm sure that will be updated. The scrutiny applied to this election will bring about much needed winds of change.

As for us, if Bush gets in he will not be able to do the damage to us that he could've done had he won in a landslide. Our military Pagans will be in much more danger, so we need to fight for their rights. Our time is NOW, this is it. As many as can come out of the broom closet, need to. We need to get active politically as well as in community service. Our time is now.


As A Canadian, And Our Own Elections Running Right Now, It's Getting... Nov 11th. at 10:53:56 am UTC

Veshka Valkyrie (Sudbury, Ontario CA) Age: 22 - Email


As a Canadian, and our own elections running right now, it's getting really hard to try to keep up with our own political race with this going on in the States. Now, since I can't get my hands on all the information, tv programming, and other pieces of reference that the Americans can for their Presidential election, I don't have all the facts when it comes to this. But if there's anything I do know, is that both of the major candidates have their bad points and both of them are far from who I would want running my country. At least we have 3 major parties... So it's the lesser of three evils here. Doesn't help nonetheless come voting day.

But anti-Pagan and anti-gay statments, far from ecological views on raising the economy, and plans for cutting social programs with an oversided machette to "help us all"... Plus, their childishness with the recount (And I for one was astonished to hear Buchannan say "Yes, people probably voted for me by mistake and I don't feel good knowing I have votes that I didn't deserve")... In all honesty, I think I would have just moved to another country :)

If this is the kind of bs (excuse my French) that the Americans are going to be looking forward to for the next 4 years, which seems to be evidant with the actions since November 7th, I feel sorry for you all. It's not going to be good, for all of us, espcially those in communities where both of the major candidates have snubbed, turned away from or downright ignored. Even Canada will feel the impact. But, just keep telling yourself... It's only 4 years... 4 years isn't really a long time.


I Voted For Gore Because Of The Situtation On The Supreme Court... Nov 11th. at 10:40:25 am UTC

Sunshine (Denver, Colorado US) Age: 30


I voted for Gore because of the situtation on the supreme court. I am worried that if Bush gets in he will make the Supreme Court more conserative. With the possiblity of Roe v Wade, and Prayer in Church being under taken under a more conserative court would take those rights away or expand those rights to be included in the seperation of Church and State. I don't know what is going come out of the situation in Florida but, I do beleive an interesting windfall will come out of this situation in Florida. I do hope that Gore will come out on top but unfortunely I feel Bush will win. I do not know what will happen but I believe Gore is coming out on top in the "Gentlemen's" war.


Bush Based Alot Of His Platform On Being An Honest Man. If... Nov 11th. at 10:32:41 am UTC

Wolfpup (Yacolt, Washington US) Age: 36


Bush based alot of his platform on being an honest man. If this were true, he wouln't accept the office unless the election was truly won by him. The fact that he is calling Gore a sore loser sounds more like a playground argument instead of an election. Bush should call for a re-vote in Florida since 19, 000 votes were tossed out, so he could win HONESTLY like he has professed himself to be for the last year.


I Voted For Al Gore. The Poltical Wrangling Is A Demonstration Of... Nov 11th. at 10:15:31 am UTC

Walter (Chicago, Illinois US) Age: 37 - Email


I voted for Al Gore. The poltical wrangling is a demonstration of everything wrong with the political situation in this country. I don't think either candidate should concede until every vote has been counted since it is so close. Neither candidate will be able to bring this country together adn no matter who wins, the 43rd president of the United States will be a political "bastard" with an illegitimate administration. Because of this, I am now hoping George Bush wins. The best thing that could happen to the Pagan community would be for George Bush to declare Paganism an illegitimate religion and ban it from the military when his administration is illegitmate. Nothing could ever legitimze Pagan religions more! If Gore wins, we could be looking at a long dark religious right nightmare four years down the road.


Yes I Voted For The Lesser Of 2 Evils. My Feeling Is... Nov 11th. at 9:20:36 am UTC

Linda (Dayton, Ohio US) Age: 45 - Email


Yes I voted for the lesser of 2 evils. My feeling is the ballots should have been straight-line ballots, thus there would have been no confusion. If any concession should be made, its Bush having enough honesty and intergety to admit something was screwy, even Buchnan did that! We are now a country divided--and Bush has his militia in place thru the NRA. As pagans, if Bush prevails, we as well as others of the non-Christian faiths can look foward to the burning times again. Shrub Jr. is another Hilter in action!


Should Bush End Up In The Oval Office, I Forsee A Supreme... Nov 11th. at 3:41:21 am UTC

icedancer (san diego, California US) Age: 30


Should Bush end up in the Oval Office, I forsee a Supreme Court that will move towards Conservatism (and not the nice environmental kind) - "Pro-life, " "Christian" values in schools, and pro-business versus protecting Gaea. Gore would not be like this and Nader ever less so - although Nader's administration would be feeble because he would have no Congressional support. Since listening to Brown, I have come to associate the Libertarians with the Anarchists of the 1880's and 1890's. In my mind's eye, Gore seems the most responsive the our community and more importantly, our ideals.


I Voted For Nader, Because For Once I Wanted To Vote *for... Nov 11th. at 3:37:38 am UTC

Secular Pagan (Minneapolis, Minnesota US) Age: 37 - Email


I voted for Nader, because for once I wanted to vote *for* someone I truly supported, rather than playing the two-party-system "lesser of two evils" game. And despite the Nader-voter scapegoating going on right now, I stand by that vote, and am glad that I cast it. Face it, both Bush and Gore are so desperately butt-kissing centrist "whichever way the wind is blowing to land me in the White House, " neither one is going to do anything too extremely anything. This has good as well as bad aspects, of course. ;-) But talk of either one causing revolution, whether a beneficial revolution or a scary revolution, just isn't in line with the primary fact about both of them: They are mainly about themselves, and winning votes.

As for the present mess, I would rather see it handled fairly (as fair as anyone can make it at this point) than have either one hurrying to concede the election or to start moving their bottle-cap collections and pet rocks into 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Short-circuiting democracy in the name of expediency would *not* be "for the good of the country."


As Someone Who Is Employed By A Company That Takes Public Opinion... Nov 11th. at 3:23:03 am UTC

Brandy (Lehigh Acres, Florida US) Age: 25 - Email


As someone who is employed by a company that takes public opinion surveys I knew the election was going to be very close. No one person in this country could have predicted this out come. At first I was amazed and thought how wonderfull it was to see democracy working at its finest. That changed quickly when the two candidates and their campaign advisors etcetera started acting more like preschoolers in bad need of naps.

I did vote, though I did not vote for a major party candidate. I voted for Harry Browne who was the Libertarian presidential candidate.Which most people would say is throwing my vote away, but to me as long as I vote my conscience its never a throw away vote.

The whole ballot issue in West Palm really disturbs me as well as makes me embarrassed to be a Floridian. Its plain and simple, you have a candidates name, you have a number with an arrow next to it. The arrow points to the hole, you take the pin and punch the hole next to the arrow next to the number next to your candidate. Why is this a problem ? If you believe in democracy and you are serious about voting then take the time to pay attention to what the heck you are doing. If you are unsure ask the people at your polling place who are paid to help you. The county I live in used the same form of ballot a few years ago and we had no problems with it. What the heck made some of these people think they could punch two holes and expect the counter to know what they meant? Not all of us can read your minds people.

This election has turned into a circus.The ring leaders are Gore and Bush and the clowns are the people who are swallowing this mess spewed by the two parties. In the end it will affect all communities not just the Pagan communities. The only solution I can think of that would solve this problem is to hold another election. Forget about Bush and Gore , lets get the candidates who lost the primaries and ALL the third party candidates together for a mega-debate and have a re-election based on those choices.Maybe , just maybe we can find a leader who is worthy of our country and our vote.


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