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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 12,309,234  

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Question of the Week: 17 - 12/4/2000

Does Older Equal Better?

Whether it is Traditional Wicca vs. Solitary Wicca or Coven Trained vs. Self-Initiation, there are folks on either side of the issue, "Is Older Really Better"? We have even heard of some folks 'padding' their experience (or years) so as not be called a "newbie" or a 'wannabe". Is there something 'wrong' with being a new seeker? Is there something inherently right about being what some call the "Old Guard"? Is there a point where revering the 'old way' of teaching/passing on the knowledge actually becomes 'resistant to change'? Should the new generations of Pagans follow closely in our footsteps or should they be free to break new ground? Can the old traditions survive if they do? Should they?

 Reponses:   There are 199 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

I Think I'm Unclear On The Concept Of "old" Vs. "new" With... Dec 5th. at 5:19:00 pm EST

Willow Badgerdance (Austin, Texas US) Age: 34

I think I'm unclear on the concept of "old" vs. "new" with regard to paganism. Maybe it's because I'm not Wiccan and don't really follow any written tradition. I did not convert to paganism from any other religion - I was brought up in a non-religious household and was never baptised. The spiritual beliefs I hold now have been with me since childhood, born of experience and intuition. It was only in my late 20's that I discovered there was such a thing as a pagan "movement", for lack of a better word. It was then that I began to learn about the Goddess concept and to explore whether it felt right for me. Was I a newbie at that point? I honestly don't know.

Does Older Equal Better?a Very Thought Provoking Question. I'm Pretty New.i... Dec 5th. at 4:25:13 pm EST

Rain BrightStar (Moore, Oklahoma US) Age: 40 - Email

Does Older equal better?A very thought provoking question.
I'm pretty new.I did my dedication around Beltaine 99, initiation
Beltaine 200.So I consider myself a witch now, albeit a newly
practicing one.I am self-initiated, and since I've never been in a coven,
I've had to learn from Books and websites such as this.As a result I'm
very electic.I think the "Old Guard" has much to teach us.I would love
to learn personally from a much more experienced Witch, a Coven would
be great.But until then, I learn on my own and it has been a wonderful
beautiful experience.I'm sure some who follow and "Old Way" are a bit resistant
to change, but that is how it should be.They lit the flame for all of us to follow, and I, for one, salute them.
Peace and Love
Rain BrightStar

In My Opinion, Paganism Should Be An Individual Path - The Follower Creates... Dec 5th. at 4:04:46 pm EST

Briana Summerhawk (Stevens Point, Wisconsin US) Age: 33 - Email

In my opinion, paganism should be an individual path - the follower creates or adopts a system of beliefs/rituals/laws that is best for them - otherwise wicca/witchcraft/paganism is no different from other religions. Someone is always breaking away from prescribed ways in all religions and making their religion more personal, more meaningful. Because someone is new to paganism does not mean they have less to offer to themselves, to others, to the Earth or to the gods. Because someone has been practising for years does not make them superior. If your religion is personal, legitimacy can only come from within - and within is what ultimately counts the most. If one is satisfied and confident in their beliefs and lifestyle, why should they be judged according to what someone else believes?? And who can truly say what is wrong, right, good or bad? For the record, I am solitary and highly eclectic, having consciously practised from a pagan point-of-view for about 4 years now (though I realize that my paganistic beliefs have been with me all my life) I am so very, very happy and content with my ways - they work for me. If I had to conform to "old ways" of doing things, I would find less meaning and effect in my religion.

In Any Community Or Ecology There Is Usually A Gulf Between The... Dec 5th. at 3:52:12 pm EST

Amerist A'Toll (Tempe, Arizona US) Age: 0 - Email

In any community or ecology there is usually a gulf between the old and the young. While certainly a village needs its elders it cannot survive without the young. The term "new blood" does often come along with a certain excitement that perhaps something may bring what is needed to revitalize something that is beginning to stagnate from old age.

There is nothing about being old that makes it overall "better" than being young (or in this case a new seeker.)

In my culture (the Crystalian A'Toll Clan) we design all of our fundamental premices around a wedding of the old and the new. "The fire and brash dreams of the new must be tempered with the aged wisdom of the old." A new flame may fare up out of control and shine brightly, but ultimately burns itself out in its exuberance if it is not guided; the old slowly becomes stagnate and fades away if there is nothing to give it the spark of life that once burgened it to the state it is now.

I say that it is foolish to discount the new, that in time it shall become the experienced and the known and the wise. However, to reach that end it must have gone through its entire life-cycle of being newborn, following it's wonderful dreams, and then finally finding it's niche in which to roost. An elder with no childhood would have no sense of world; all children have their own chance to become elders in time. There is no reason to hasten it.

A living Tradition is one that changes, certain of the old ways will find themselves covered in dust as the new come to danse in their places, but also time is a cycle and often those Old Ways that were truely enightened will be taken up again by the young and will life and danse again.

The old are not threatened by the young; the young are not trapped by the old.

Amerist A'Toll, Amethyst Magist of the Crystalian Clan A'Toll

I Am A Solitary Eclectic Wiccan And Wouldn't Have Learned Wicca Any... Dec 5th. at 3:47:43 pm EST

Brightwind (Montoursville, Pennsylvania US) Age: 22 - Email

I am a solitary eclectic Wiccan and wouldn't have learned Wicca any other way. It allowed me to form my own belief structure. However if it weren't for the older traditions we wouldn't have any basis for a religion. I respect the people that came before. If it weren't for them Wicca wouldn't be the way it is now. We should all respect each others beliefs reguardless of age or amount of training. We don't want to become as some Christians have today. The best part of Wicca for me is the lack of dogma. I do what feels right for me. That's how it should be for everyone reguardless. Blessed Be.

What Is Completely Necessary Is That Pagans Walk Along The Path That... Dec 5th. at 3:37:14 pm EST

Dragon Li-Hagetaka Yung (North Plainfield, New Jersey US) Age: 25 - Email

What is completely necessary is that pagans walk along the path that is best for them, be it of old ways or new. My Graxean path follows the ancient ways of those around the world, but is open enough to blend the new ways of doing things (like sticking a radio in the circle for music instead of playing my own.) Tradition has it many good things; being modern has it's many good points too. The important part is to take the good from whatever feels the best and use it to your advantage. Sticking to tradition, even if uncomfortable, just for tradition's sake will help no one. One can't raise the proper energy if uncomfortable. Many strike down my path because I go about it this way instead of following Traditional ways, but it is their loss, not mine. "To each their own" is as true as it was when it was first uttered.

I Still Remember What Charles Darwin Once Said, "they Might Be Giants... Dec 5th. at 3:23:12 pm EST

Tanais (Spokane, Washington US) Age: 20

I still remember what Charles Darwin once said, "They might be giants and us pigmies, but we stand on the shoulders of giants and see farther then they ever could." I think it can apply to spiritual growth. We choose to stand on the shoulders of our ancestry and their religion and then develop beyond that starting point. That's why experience is so important because life had taught lessons over time which might be lost on the young. Should the next wave of pagans follow in the footsteps of the older? I believe it should be a starting point. Know the basics and then expand beyond that with a balance of the old and new traditions.

The New Generation Of Pagans: Should They Follow Closely Or Should They... Dec 5th. at 2:48:40 pm EST

Nighthawk Stallion (Louisville, Kentucky US) Age: 21 - Email

The New Generation of Pagans: should they follow closely or should they break new ground?

It is easy to make a game of any religion, and if the new generation does not learn what is behind the magik the religion may disolve. All the work that has been put into the importance of keeping it going, leads me to believe that the new generation has larger shoes to fill. However, the basis of the religion includes the freeness of the individual, and it would also be wrong for us to influence them with our own preferences.

Yes, we should be doing some seriouse teaching to keep the old ways true and real, as to not loose the knowledge and background we have worked hard to sustain. However, it is important to not influence their growth and learning, for how are they suposed to learn, and expand the craft if this is not allowed?

Ok, Grizzled Old Vet Wading In Here... I've Been On This Path... Dec 5th. at 2:03:44 pm EST

Sunfell (Little Rock, Arkansas US) Age: 40 - Email

Ok, grizzled old vet wading in here... I've been on this path for almost 29 years. I started when I was 12. Back when I was first away from home, the Pagan community was still pretty much underground, so the situation when I was a newbie was quite different from what newcomers meet now.

That said, I don't think my way is any better than any one elses- I've just been at it longer. I haven't become 'set in my ways'- doing so invites the slow death of Orthodoxy. Instead, I have kept an open, inquiring 'Beginner's Mind' and relied on my past experience to help me Spot The BS Artist.

There is nothing wrong with being a newbie, except, like baby crabs and turtles, their 'shell' of knowledge and experience hasn't been developed yet. So they are vulnerable to all sorts of hype and disinformation- from the predatory 'initiation' to the ego-driven 'witch war'. It takes time, and sadly, hard knocks to get away from that 'wide-eyed newbie' state. It's too bad there isn't a Pagan version of the New York Face newcomers can wear to make them less of a target.

As a soon-to-be Elder, I make it part of my responsibility to steer newcomers in the right direction. This doesn't mean I want them hanging around my neck like an amulet- independence is my goal when dealing with them. I use my experience and insight to spot the dabblers and time-wasters, and waste no time of my own in telling them to take off. Those who are sincere seekers get my time. This doesn't mean that I am a ego-puffed 'high poobah'- far from it. I want to keep sincere seekers from getting hung up on the thorny issues that block the entrance to our Path, and help them navigate their first months and years of their Pagan life. All I ask is that they do the same to those behind them.

Is older better? If wisdom and experience is considered, yes it is. Are Newbies a hazard? No- we were all newcomers once, and our duty as Elders is to steer them right. Should newcomers trust all elders? Yes and no. There will always be bad apples in the bunch, and sometimes bitter experience helps to fine tune that all-important intuitive gut.

The bottom line is that we are a living, growing community, and considering the forces that want to pretend we don't exist (and help us along), we need to band together- new and old. Strength is in intelligent numbers.


Sunfell- battlescarred, but proud to have stuck with it for so long.

As In Everything, There Is Always A Place For Something Old And... Dec 5th. at 1:56:13 pm EST

Alumenios (Danvers, Massachusetts US) Age: 25 - Email

As in everything, there is always a place for something old and something new. No two people think exactly alike, so how could they both see the Lord and Lady, God, Buddha or {insert higher power of choice here} in the same way? The same holds true for the way that we choose to revere them.

In My Experience (3 Years Now :) I Have Found Solitary Practice To... Dec 5th. at 1:30:57 pm EST

Tarah D (St. Paul, Minnesota US) Age: 24 - Email

In my experience (3 years now :) I have found Solitary practice to be by FAR the most rewarding. I have been to several public Sabbat festivals, and have had the unfortunate parts in planning this years Yule fest. The unfortunate part of it is, when we (my husband and I) go to the planning meeting, we are ignored (I guess if you're not a member of a certain coven your opinions and input don't count), and there are too many leaders, and no one is willing to compromise, and the whole thing is quite disorganized. It reminded of me of a Paris fashion show, full of prima donnas. I have no problems with healthy positive self esteem, but when you trample other's ideas in your haste to be right, it tends to get a little old QUICKLY!! Also, a few of my dearest Pagan friends have quit going to festivals all together because of bad coven politics and the negativity that circulates during these festivals.

I have found this during other public festivals as well. The people are courteous, but unwilling to go outside their little circle of friends, and then they whine why the Pagan population as a whole (especially we "errant" solitaries) won't "get with the program" and participate. Not even willing to realize that they themselves are part of the problem. I am actually thinking of writing in to a Pagan newsletter and telling them of my comments; whether or not it will actually be published is another matter entirely. Grr. Enough with that BIG rant!!

Personally, I have NO problems with seekers, it's how you learn. If there were no new seekers, the Pagan population would dwindle, and eventually die out. In the beginning of my journey, I felt a little scornful of the newbies as they are called, and assumed (very wrongly about some of them) that they were just wannabes. But then I stopped to think, that without my wonderful and supportive Witchie friends, I would be in their shoes. Ouch. That brought me down a few pegs, and made me think more closely about my thoughts and actions towards those who might be my new "brothers and sisters" in the Path of Life.

I find that a basis in the Ancient Ways, but a willingness to break new ground is the way to go. It makes us strong in our past, but willing and open to new ideas for the future. I believe that those in the "old" traditions will survive, but strength goes with change, as all things do.

In strength, wisdom and CHANGE,

Brightest Blessings,

Tarah :)

Does Older Equal Better? Absolutely Not. Neither Do The Old Sayings "might... Dec 5th. at 1:16:02 pm EST

Steven Bragg (MSU, Mississippi US) Age: 24 - Email

Does older equal better? Absolutely not. Neither do the old sayings "might makes right" or "ten thousand Frenchmen can't be wrong" hold inherent truths. Many things are old that are not better than their contemporaries: buildings, automobiles, governmental systems, and religious organizations. Buildings and autombiles and those that fall into that category have physical components that can be improved. Governmental systems and religious organizations and those that fall into that category need to change and improve because they are based on the needs and desires of humans. Humans' needs and desires change based on situation and time, and, therefore, these need to also change in order to continue serving their adherents. Older systems, such as the ones mentioned, are less likely to be meeting the needs and desires of their adherents than the more contemporary ones. Therefore, older does not equal better.

If someone wants to follow a spiritual/religious path that reveres Nature and its cycles, then that person has every right in the Universe to do so. And if a person wants to call it "Wicca" or "Witchcraft" or "Pagan, " then as long as that person's spiritual/religious path falls within the general field of those religions, then that person has every right to call it that without the consent of another human being. What that general field encompasses, however, is a matter for much study and discussion with those who already adhere to those paths, not simply reading a book and deciding one will be of that tradition with no further effort. If I find out what the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca believes and does, and I do the exact thing, then I can say that I follow the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca. In logical terms, this is if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. (Let A=the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca; let B=my research* of the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca; and let C=my own practices. *I realize that theory (research) and practice are not the same thing, however, this signfies that the research is an unaltered flow of the tradition's beliefs and practices.)

However, if the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca says that one does not have permission to claim this tradition without initiation into the tradition, then no one expect initiates of the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca can claim this tradition as their own. But it the person above says "I am not an initiate, and therefore cannot claim it as my own, of the So-and-so Tradition of Wicca, but I follow a Wiccan path that closely resembles the So-and-so Tradition, " then that person is not in the wrong and can be considered a Wiccan, just not a So-and-so Wiccan. No one has any right to learn a tradition's ways like the So-and-so's and say "yes, I am of this tradition" knowing that it is against that tradition to do that. If that person wants to use that tradition as a basis and add to it his or her own personal flair and then call it something else, he or she has every right (that's where the "original" traditions came from to begin with). (Now, if a person publishes a book with verbatum writings of the other tradition, then copywright laws and such as that come into play.)

Wiccans across the board agree that no one person or tradition represents Wicca, that there are many types of Wicca. If this is true, then no person has a right to say that Jane is not a Wiccan because she is not a So-and-so Wiccan. According to the belief of Wiccans just mentioned, which is all Wiccans, only the Gods can make one a Wiccan, for the Gods are responsible for all that is, according to the Wiccans. This can be equally distributed throughout the Neo-Pagan movement. And this is exactly what has taken place over the last few decades of Neo-Pagan history.

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