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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 6,226,199  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 263

Lurker/Post Ratio: 124 to 1

Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


I Believe That The American Vote Does Not Count! I Believe The... Nov 10th. at 11:27:49 pm UTC

Ocean Moons 13 (Sedona) Age: 46 - Email


I believe that the American vote DOES NOT COUNT!

I believe the system is fixed and completely corrupt. I believe that the election is nothing more than a big put on. I wouldnt be suprised if they have Hollywood writers and directors producing them.

Justice, ha! The amount of justice you recieve in this country is determined by how much money you have.

In Arizona you can go to prison for 6 years for having a joint, but if your wealthy you can get by with a fine for murder in California.

A diplomat drunk runs down and kills a kid in d.c. and no charges are brought. police in N.Y. have a drunkin party at a hotel and fire their weapons in the hotel and destroy a police car, yet no arrests are made.

If I had a photographic memory this list could go on for decades.

Justice ha! There is no justice in America.

A large electric prison fence should be put around washington d.c. and lock all those crooked low lifes up for good.


I Voted For Gore/lieberman. Until Tuesday, The National Election Was Sort... Nov 10th. at 11:00:23 pm UTC

woodspirit (burlington, Vermont US) Age: 32 - Email


I voted for Gore/Lieberman. Until Tuesday, the national election was sort of a sidenote here in Vermont. We have some very deep issues to grapple with up here, so for me and I would guess many of us, Washington and the presidential race sort of dropped off the radar screen sometime last summer. but, of course, after tuesday all eyes are focused on florida of all places. of all the scenarios i ran through my head when I went to bed on tuesday evening, who would have dreamed? hollywood couldn't have done a better job.

i was not particularly crazy about voting for gore - he is the lesser of two evils, but, i feel, still evil. he is part of the washington establishment, having spent virtually his entire life there. he is rude and abrasive (in my opinion) not to mention condescending. he has an distressingly dysfunctional relationship with the truth. normally i would have voted for neither gore nor bush, but the thought of a bush presidency sends shivers down my spine. he reminds me too much of ronald reagan. as a pagan, as a father, i couldn't in good conscience NOT vote for gore.

i'm not sure what the solution is to the election troubles in florida. it seems to me, though, that unless they let the people of palm beach county vote again, they'll never know the will of the people considering all of the evidence of irregularities in the polling there. That is a mighty big spike on the palm beach county bar for buchanan. while the ballots didn't seem all that confusing to me, different people perceive things differently. I can see how it could be confusing. i don't know if it is even legal to have a revote, but it would seem unless they do something decisive like a revote, this could go on for months, if not years in the courts. The american nation cannot and should not be expected to withstand what that would entail.

i am resigned to a bush administration. we try to remain positive. i think the pagan community has a strong enough voice that we can be assured that mr. bush and his republican congress will not roll back our rights, or anyone else's for that matter, without one heck of a fight. as a community we will continue to speak out against injustice and prejudice. we will fight for the rights of the women and the children and the working people and the poor and the sick and the elderly. we'll continue to fight against the desecration and decimation of our mother, the earth. we will not give up.

and yet, i am fearful.


As An After-thought To My Previous Post -- The Issue Of Bush's Non-acceptance... Nov 10th. at 10:24:37 pm UTC

Roger LaVern Girtman II (a.k.a. Gwalchmai) (Bay St. Louis, Mississippi US) Age: 19 - Email


As an after-thought to my previous post --

The issue of Bush's non-acceptance views of Paganism is moot and shouldn't have been a factor in voting. Here's why:

First Amendment - Freedom of Religion, of course that means nothing if Paganism isn't considered a religion, right?

But it is and it cannot change... The US Supreme court declared Wicca and similar Pagan paths as a legally distinct and valid religion. Yes the court can over-turn that... or can they?

They COULD have -- if they hadn't already upheld the decision. Now we're in the books for good and there's nothing anyone can do to change it.

So... no matter what Bush and/or Gore thinks they can't change it, so it shouldn't matter what they think, but the other issues that they CAN affect, DO matter! (It may be interesting to note that Gore voted AGAINST allowing the Fort Hood Coven to practice, in last year's fiasco, under the grounds that Wiccans in the military were Satanists-in-Disguise. [That is an inferred comment, not a direct quote, if I'm wrong on that point, I appologize, but I don't belive that I am.])

Nonetheless, the original point remains, our religious legal status can't be changed, therefore it shouldn't matter what anyone thinks about it. (Anyway, I always have wanted a good excuse to meet 800, 000+ Pagans on the steps of the Capital building -- Haven't you?)


Yes, I Voted -- For Bush-cheney, Because I Agree With His Political Views... Nov 10th. at 9:53:46 pm UTC

Roger L Girtman II (a.k.a. Gwalchmai) (Bay St. Louis, Mississippi US) Age: 19 - Email


Yes, I voted -- for Bush-Cheney, because I agree with his political views. It seems to me that Gore has over and over again looked toward the minorities with miraculous, lovely-sounding plans and firm numbers... but the numbers are derived from incomplete, and inaccurate sources for the express purpose of LOOKING like Gore knows what he's doing. Gore's plans, albeit seemingly virtuous aren't applicable -- the majority of them simply cannot be done. Bush's plans are within the realm of possibilities, and he hasn't mislead the country by plucking numbers out of the air. He has broad pland, which can be modified to the circumstances as the situations change. Thats why I voted for Bush.

As far as the Flordia charade goes -- if the voters there weren't intelligent enough to READ THE INSTRUCTIONS (which were printed on the ballots) or, at the very least, ask for help, I for one hope and pray that their vote's DON'T count.

Gore may have gotten the popular vote, but that majority is limited to a few large states in areas where those voter's issues are better solved at the state and local level. Look at any nationwide map, by state or county...and you will see that Bush's supporters cover a MUCH larger AREA of the nation, which because it is a widespread ares, those voters don't have the luxury of appealing to their local and state governments. That is the exact reason why the American founders created teh Electoral college -- they knew that a few large states could out-vote the entire country popularly, and that jsut isn't fair. Otherwise, California and New England would be able to control the entire nation. Thats just not right! In my humble oppinion, Gore should concede to Bush out of the simple facts that 1- Bush got more states, and 2- Bush got more electoral votes (contoversy set aside).

If, in the end of this debacle, Gore is named President-elect, I will respect his position, and his office. I cannot, in good conscience, respect a man who whined and complained his way to power.


I Am Very Concerned At The Thought Of A Republican Administration And... Nov 10th. at 9:36:03 pm UTC

Aedh Rua (Sterling, Illinois US) Age: 35


I am very concerned at the thought of a Republican administration and Congress in this country. The majority of Republicans view Pagans, Wiccans, and other "occultists" roughly in the way that the Nazis viewed Jews in the '30s. I doubt that the Republicans will have enough of a majority to pass laws against us, but it probably won't stop some of them from trying. Keep in mind that Jesse Helms tried to pass anti-Witchcraft laws in the 1980s, and that Bob Barr wished to ban Pagans from the military only last year.

I suppose that they might try to take tax-exempt status and non-profit postal rates away from Pagan churches, and to encourage various forms of discrimination. More than this would be very difficult in the sort of divided Congress we are likely to have. The "Satanic Ritual Abuse" scare of the late 1980s might have a repeat, but that effected very few Pagans. Ironically enough, that particular case of hysteria mostly effected Christians, often Fundies.

Conservative courts could give us more trouble, particularly in child custody cases, and it seems likely that a Bush in office would appoint mostly very conservative justices to Federal courts. Still, he would probably have very great trouble getting such people confirmed.

More generally, a Bush administration would likely see an upswing in racial, sexual, and sexual preference discrimination, with very little that we could do about it. This is more a matter of not enforcing existing laws than passing new ones. Bush could do much damage simply by inaction. Attempts at censorship, especially of the internet, might be popular enough among many Democrats to have a good chance of success. This would effect us only slightly, but is still not a good thing.

What can we do about it? Frankly, I support Gore's attempts at winning, no matter what methods he uses. For us, this is a matter of dealing with real oppression, and Bush is the candidate who stands for that oppression. We do not have the luxury of abstract Constitutional correctness. Our struggle is a struggle against those who would destroy us.

In the future, as distasteful as it is to act like Christians, we must grow, in numbers, wealth, and power. We certainly do not want to seek converts, but we must make a concerted effort to reach out to anyone who is already Pagan, and looking for contacts, and to people who are essentially Pagan in belief, but who don't know what to call themselves. We must seek alliances with others, but I think it is important also to clearly express our own perspective(s).

More distasteful, still cynical chuckle), we must stop fighting each other, COMPLETELY! No more witch wars, no more Pagan-Heathen disdain, no more trad comparing. We are all in the same boat, with the same enemies, enemies whom I will never again underestimate. I want never again, ever, to be as frightened as I am now. I want never again, ever, to be ruled by a regime made up of enemies of my religion. To prevent that we must become strong, overwhelmingly strong. We must stick together, no matter what, and love one another as one people. We must not hate our enemies, don't get me wrong, for hatred will accomplish nothing. But we must make it impossible for anyone to ever harm us.

We are not a numerous people, and nobody loves us...


I Voted For Gore. I Believed Then And I Still Believe That... Nov 10th. at 8:25:42 pm UTC

Aradia (Glen Burnie, Maryland US) Age: 52


I voted for Gore. I believed then and I still believe that he was the best candidate. My heart goes out to the people in Florida who lost their vote because of a very suspect type of ballot. I think that this election count should take as long as it takes. We have a President in office and the new President does not take office until the end of January. I think that democracy in action is worth waiting for. I believe that Maat is showing us just who the real man of integrity is: Al Gore. He said that he would fight for the common people and this is just what he is doing in Florida. Fighting for the rights of those people to vote. Let us also remember that there were many of our brothers and sisters of color who were turned away from the polls on election day. The thought that this would still be happening in the year 2000 truly disgusts me. I believe that we have the time for justice to be done in this Country. Why are the Republicans rushing to judgement. All the votes have not even been counted. As a grandmother with three young grand-daughters it would have been unthinkable to vote for someone like George W. I refuse to go back into the broom closet and I believe that if we must live under a Bush regime it will only make us all stronger in our Religious Convictions. Never again the Burning!


I Am, Very Sadly, To Young To Vote, Although I Followed This... Nov 10th. at 7:21:12 pm UTC

Marja Sainio (Grand Rapids, Minnesota US) Age: 16 - Email


I am, very sadly, to young to vote, although I followed this campaign since it's birth with great interest. If I had been able to legally vote it would have been for Gore do to many factors surrounding him and the other candidates. I studied up on all of the major candidates, including Nadar, Bush and Buchanan and in the end realized that Gore was the only one that would be able to keep many of his promises without jeopordizing a great part of the country. The main reasons I kept away from Bush was the horrible state in which Texas has been placed in during a great deal of polls and the fact that he said he didn't consider Witchcraft a religion. I feel that any candidate that wants to earn the respect of the country must not be one to pick and choose which groups to support.


I Did Not Vote, I'm Not Old Enough To. I Back Gore... Nov 10th. at 7:10:12 pm UTC

Chrissie (Wapakoneta, Ohio US) Age: 14


I did not vote, I'm not old enough to. I back Gore on the issues, I don't believe Bush would do this country well. He may do the white, christian man well, but that's about it. Vice President Gore takes a stand on woman's rights and minorities. I hope Gore wins! :)


I Voted For Gore And Was Very Disappointed; But I Really Feel... Nov 10th. at 6:51:36 pm UTC

dreamwalker (kent, Washington US) Age: 52


I voted for Gore and was very disappointed; but I really feel for the florida voters who were confused by their ballots.We used to have those ballots here and I was never really sure if my vote was what I wanted it to be. It was always prudent to check after punching and by that time it is too late and anyway how does space no. 58 relate to the party you want? Now we have a different way of balloting. Clear printed names and a space next to it to be colored in. this way you really know what you do. One thing I learned when Kennedy was assasinated was that democracy such as ours can survive anything.Even Bush. I worry though about the idea of a dynasty. I thought bush sr. was trying that in 1988 with quayle and even more now. Just how did jeb get to be a native floridian and his brother a native texan anyway???


I Did Vote And I Think That Everyone Should Vote. I Am... Nov 10th. at 6:47:17 pm UTC

Hayley Mertz (Imperial, Missouri US) Age: 19 - Email


I did vote and I think that everyone should vote. I am for women's rights and for Pagan rights. Some of the closed minded repuplican male canidates think that if you are not "Christian" then you don't have family values. They bring way too much religion into polotics. I voted a split ticket between the Green party and the Democratic party. I am for gun control and the Repubican canidates have the NRA on thier side. I am for the right to choose and for unions and they are not.


I Am Proud To Say That I Voted For Browne. I Have... Nov 10th. at 6:44:56 pm UTC

Giz (Doylestown, Pennsylvania US) Age: 28 - Email


I am proud to say that I voted for Browne. I have read many of the responses to this query and I am sad to see how many people have the feeling that, since I voted for one of the third party candidates, I threw my vote away and helped put Bush one step closer to office. By no means can I support Bush in office--which is why I didn't vote for him. I simply cannot support a man who is so close-minded and egocentric as to think that his interpretation of the constitution and freedom of religion can only extend towards those he personally can endorse or accept. The comments he has made during his campaign with regard to his total lack of religious tolerance summon thoughts of oppression not unlike a 21st century crusade or (dare a say it?) a veritable witch hunt--and I think that his stance on the environment speaks for itself.

I voted Browne because, for the first time, I voted to support my beliefs, as opposed to casting my vote against who I felt was the worst candidate. These beliefs include the concept of tolerance. The libertarian view is basically live and let live. If this smacks of the familiar to you, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, it is hardly a new concept among witches and one that many of us (self included) tend to take for granted.

Many of the previous postings say that they voted Gore in the hopes of preventing Bush from succeeding, but that they would have rather voted for a third party candidate. I can only wonder: what if everyone who felt this voted according to their own conscience, with no other motive? Would we still have the bi-partisan problems we have today? For that matter, what purpose do the political parties serve? Can we not research each candidate ourselves based on their own merit instead of having to filter through the rhetoric of their party's alleged beliefs? The political party system existing in America today seems to feel that the general population hasn't the intelligence to discern between candidates without the general heading of "democrat" or "republican", when, if it was as simple as sticking a label on someone, we would all be political clones, with no independent thoughts of our own and we would know exactly what each candidate and elected official would do at every turn. When we vote to support the democrats and/or republicans, we support that party--you can word it however you want, but this is how politicians interpret our actions. Remember: these two political parties haven't always been the strongest or, for that matter, even present on the political scene in America (recall if you will those grade school history classes about whigs, tories, federalists, etc). If we don't support them, they will have no choice but to fade into history themselves. That said, I will step down from my soapbox...

Please note: By no means am I proselytizing for the libertarian party. I'm not even a member, I'm registered independent. I just feel that it is the responsibility of every American to fully investigate who and what they are voting for when they go to the polls.

As for the mess in Florida, I read a great quote today from Senator Torricelli from New Jersey (a democrat): "I want Al Gore to win this election, but more than that, I want somebody to win this election." The fact of the matter is that I think all of us can say with some degree of certainty that, in light of all the problems and recounts Florida has been and is enduring, there have probably been voting inaccuracies in every election since George Washington. The only reason these problems have come to the forefront at this point in time is due to the infinitesimal gap between the two major party candidates in the polls. However, the election itself is hardly the best time to effectively affect a change. If we hold our constitution so high, we must let the election proceed along as normal and accept its results. Then, if we feel we need to change the system, we must go through the correct legal channels to do so. That is the role of the amendments--if something doesn't work, change it!

I personally do not feel that either Gore or Bush will be able to bring the country together. Whoever wins won't be able to unite congress--what makes anyone think he will be able to unite the nation? Basically, the next four years will be a struggle to accomplish anything at all, good or bad. Take that for what its worth.

How will it affect the Pagan community? Honestly, I don't know. The best I feel we can hope for with either the democratic or republican party is to maintain the current atmosphere, which is largely dependent upon where you live, what you do and to whom you open yourself. The largest problem I see is if Bush wins the presidential race. His lack of support for hate crime laws opens a Pandora's box for those who not only don't share our views, but feel the need to attack those who don't conform to their own. Gore seems to embrace religious tolerance, but I don't see him fighting for religious equality.

To reiterate, I just simply don't understand how someone can say that voting according my own belief system is throwing my vote away. This past Tuesday was the first time since I started voting that I left the booth content in where I cast my vote instead of departing with a vague sense of unease. If you have managed to read through this entire diatribe, please take one small bit of advice. You owe it to yourself to investigate every political option open to you. Perhaps in the future enough of the country will follow their individual convictions to let the major parties know that their endorsement is no longer enough. We want to vote the best person into office, not the least repugnant.


I Believe There Should Be A Run Off Just In Florida. Allow... Nov 10th. at 6:40:53 pm UTC

quietwater (jacksonville, Florida US) Age: 33 - Email


I believe there should be a run off just in Florida. Allow 2 days to give everyone a chance to vote instead of the usual 1 day. After that, wait until the final counts are totaled before announcing the new president. Whatever the result, stick by it. No more recounts or additional votes being added or taken way. I live in Florida and I believe the way the voting has been handled here makes us all look like idiots or cheats. I dont care who wins. Just get it settled. This will be creating a lot of jokes through the rest of the states as well as around the world.


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