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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 5,874,484  

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Question of the Week: 61 - 10/8/2001

Are You Willing To Give Up Some Civil Liberties To Be Safe?

Increased domestic security is on everyone's minds these days and the U.S. government has already begun implementing more restrictive security screenings than most Americans can ever remember seeing before. As the news continues to report on the likelihood of more terrorist attacks including chemical and/or biological agents, how safe do YOU feel? Would you be willing to undergo searches of your person and/or belongings at airports? How about personal searches at sporting events or when entering a mall? Are you willing to allow the government to read your email, listen in on your telephone conversations, track your web surfing habits, inquire into your membership affiliations or restrict your ability to meet in groups (say at a large Pagan festival or open circle) in order to feel more safe? Is there a point where you would draw the line at surrendering your civil rights? (Did you notice that the media when referring to the idea usually use the word 'liberties' instead of 'rights'?) Are you a little more nervous about being known as a Pagan these days?

 Reponses:   There are 69 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


I Think That More Restrictive Security Measures At Airports Are Acceptable And... Oct 5th. at 10:37:05 am UTC

Sara (San Angelo, Texas US) Age: 21 - Email


I think that more restrictive security measures at airports are acceptable and necessary-- I mean, obviously the ones that were in place weren't enough, and we DO need to make flying safe. Beyond that, giving up one's civil liberties for increased security is a horrible and un-American idea. The whole POINT of the United States is that we are a free nation, that we are able to excersize our rights, and if that changes, then we have preserved our security and lost everything else. What's that quote from Benjamin Franklin, something about how if you're willing to give up your liberty for safety, you don't deserve to be free OR safe? He was right.


I Think There Is An Objective Fact To Recall: The Rights Truly... Oct 5th. at 3:01:14 am UTC

Raven Prince (Ft. Lauderdale, Florida US) Age: 19


I think there is an objective fact to recall: the rights truly guaranteed us in this nation are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and so only a thing which violates one of those three can be taken as a violation of liberty. In WWII no one thought of rationing, and black outs, and things like that to be a violation of their 'liberties', after all, if the bombers had come to the US back then, I have no doubt that people would prefer to have turned their lights out to keep the bombers from easily hitting any target, and what good would it have been to drive one's car if our machines of warefare had had no fuel? So we have a clear and present difference between 'liberties' and 'conveniences'. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence say nothing about inconvenient airport security procedures or anything of the like, those things are 'conveniences', not 'liberties', because going through stringent airport security and not being allowed to fly with certain types of objects in your luggage or carry-on does not interfere with your ability to live, laugh, love, learn, and achieve. Would I be willing to give up a Civil Liberty? Heck no, but a thing does not violate my liberty simply because it is 'inconvenient', so I think we need to be careful about where we draw the lines on those things in our minds.


For Increased Security, I'll Show Up Early At The Airport. Give Up... Oct 4th. at 11:57:16 pm UTC

Brett Cloud (Denver, Colorado US) Age: 40 - Email


For increased security, I'll show up early at the airport. Give up Civil Liberties to feel 'safe'? **NO**!! Let the US turn EVEN more into a POLICE state? **NO**!! I hope whatever expedited procedures are approved have built in SUNSETS! Ol' Ben said it best: A people that value safety over freedom shall soon have neither--and deservedly so.

Look at what happened to the Arab medical student. After being held for almost 2 weeks w/o charges, he was released--without his glasses, without an apology, without assurances that this wouldn't happen again to him! Such groups are NOW screaming for MORE power, when they've shown themselves to be unworthy of the power they DO have!

People are human. Humans have made and will make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the human condition. What makes my blood run COLD, is SEEING the ARROGANCE of those in power.

I'm PROUD to be a Witch! I LOVE my country! I FEAR the government! I DO NOT want a national registry holding all the facts in one place for BIG BROTHER'S convenience! The social security number already comes WAY too close!


No I'm Not Nervous... Oct 4th. at 10:08:36 pm UTC

Karen Piazza (Highlands, New Jersey US) Age: 44 - Email


No I'm not nervous......


I Think One Thing That Is Important To Remember Is That Our... Oct 4th. at 7:07:47 pm UTC

Sprite (St. Ignatius, Montana US) Age: 26


I think one thing that is important to remember is that our rights are not something we can give up. They exist. We are either able to exercise them safely or we are punished for exercising them. They are always ours.

We, somewhere along the line, decided that liberty and security are mutually exclusive ideas. They are if we expect a government body to provide our security. Instead of living with more government involovement in our lives, we need to turn to our communities and ourselves to find more security without compromising liberty.

Please keep in mind that governments are not very good at overturning laws. If we 'give up' some of our rights now, the chance of getting them back when this threat is past is nothing short of a long, arduous, expensive, and nearly impossible task.

I would also like to point out, and this issue goes back before the attacks, that people have the right to do business. I'm all for better security at the airlines, but this ought to be something that the airlines do to win business not something that the government sets up and regulates. The government very seldom does things efficiently and it doesn't usually produce the highest quality. If we allowed the airlines to compete for passengers with security as a selling point, in times like these security would either be top-notch or the airline would go out of business, and maybe, just maybe, security would have been good enough to begin with that this terrible attack could have been prevented.


Curbside Check-in And Short Lines At The Airport Are *not* Civil Rights... Oct 4th. at 5:29:08 pm UTC

Blue Coyote (St Paul, Minnesota US) Age: 23


Curbside check-in and short lines at the airport are *not* civil rights. Flying is a privilege, a luxury, and people need to understand that their fellow-travelers' right to be safe on an airplane, bus, train, etc, supercedes their "right" to arrive at the airport 30 minutes before take-off.

Freedom of expression, religion, assembly, and the press *are* civil rights, and I will not give up a single one of those.


All Right, I Wasn't Going To Do This, Because I Really Haven't... Oct 4th. at 4:45:27 pm UTC

amaranth_flake@yahoo.com (Cape Canaveral, Florida US) Age: 34 - Email


All right, I wasn't going to do this, because I really haven't quite finished formulating an opinion here. However, sometimes the process of thought can be helpful, so here goes. . .

My husband and I have been debating this fiercely, from opposite sides of the same patriotic coin. If any of you have watched the television show Babylon 5, you might remember an episode in which a young alien boy becomes ill. His species/race/family are extremely religious, and one of their beliefs is that if the body's skin is cut, the soul leaks out, and what's left is a meaningless, soulless shell. The ship's surgeon examines the child, and theorizes that surgery would save his life. The family strictly forbids it. The surgeon asks the ship's captain for permission to operate anyway, and is denied that permission out of respect for the family's beliefs. He operates anyway, and the boy's life is saved. The parents come to collect their son, and promptly kill him, as what's left is in their mind an abomination, disgraceful to the sweet, charming, obedient soul who was their son. My husband believes that if we sacrifice our freedoms, regardless of the terrorist risk, then America is as soulless as those parents believe their son was -- that our freedom makes us great and defines our national identity. In his mind, the risk we must take is not one of sacrificing our freedoms for our country, but of sacrificing our lives for our country.

My position (and I'm not sure I'm wholly at this point any longer) was that freedoms, privileges, and rights given to people unwilling to make sacrifices to protect themselves and each other are wasted. Why give me freedom if I'm not willing to give it back temporarily to protect my world? Why let me assemble with others of like mind or faith if I'm unwilling as an individual to defend my right to do so, or at least support an effort to defend the right to assembly peaceably? What I pray for on this issue is that anyone monitoring my surfing is an enlightened, freedom-loving person tolerant of the many facets of diversity which make our country strong; that anyone searching my bag should be savvy enough to catch those people who actually are trying to slip something by them.

The other thing I find it important to mention here is a comment on the nature of terrorism. In Operation Desert Storm, we made it painfully clear to our opponents that in traditional warfare, we were superior. Groups like Al Quaida (I shudder in disgust and pity just typing the name) saw this, and modified their battle plans. They made absolutely certain that they look, feel and smell individually like nonmilitary targets; and that their network is so disparate that there is no one geographic or national target. What's more, they've placed their figurehead in a country already so war-torn that any strike at him is going to seem a strike at the people he holds before him as shields. Can you imagine your own reaction the first time you see a picture of an American soldier killing an Afghan citizen who happened to be in the line of fire? The terrorists are counting on this reaction, not only from Americans, but worldwide. Combine this with the fact that their unconventional methods seek out our weaknesses and turn our own assets and people into their lethal weapons, and you begin to wonder what security measures are enough. There was a scare shortly after the attack that involved terrorists driving ambulances and fire trucks into public buildings. That warning was quickly revoked by the media -- not because it couldn't happen, but because we as Americans can't live our lives that way, wondering if the heroic people who have rescued us from tragedy time and again are now the enemy. (They aren't, never have been, and never will be, even if some fool terrorist DOES steal their vehicle.)

Another problem being discussed involves bio/chemical weaponry. In one post I saw over on www.beliefnet.com, a reader referred to (I know, it's all hearsay) a plot in which hundreds of foreign exchange students had smuggled biological agents into the country by hiding them in their body cavities, something which drug traffickers have done for years with their products. He continued to say that on a particular date, these students are supposed to unleash a biological attack on 120 American cities simultaneously. Like Ramzi Youssef's 1995 story about planes crashing into public monuments, my initial reaction was to wonder what he had been smoking -- but then I realized that however improbable, it actually was possible. What am I going to do about it? I'm going to go on living like an American, and understand that I may die today because of it.

The point of these examples is not to make us paranoid, but to illustrate that no matter how many precautions we take, no matter how high the walls we build around our country, we will still be vulnerable -- we were before September 11, and we will continue to be. Terrorists look for weaknesses, chinks in our armour, and exploit them. The only thing that has changed is our awareness/ perception level. This being said, what do we do?

We become alert and aware. One trait that many of us share is the ability to turn a blind eye and move on. After all, it's a free country -- of course that man can sit each day on the streetcorner with a sextant taking measurements of our public building! Well, the truth is that it IS a free country. But if we value it, we really can't gloss over anything anymore. If you see someone "casing" a public building, that really does need to be called in to your local authorities. When you see someone in an overcoat on a hot, sunny day at a stadium, go point it out to a security guard -- and watch to see if he takes any action or not. See someone with a flat tire in the middle of rush-hour traffic? Offer to help. I'm not saying to be suspicious of all your neighbors or to have a hidden agenda behind each good deed you do. What I am saying is that we can see now that community and interaction can serve a higher purpose than just their ostensible ones.

Obviously, I'm still very uncomfortable with this subject, and I thank anyone with the patience to have read this far, and apologize to anyone I have inadvertently offended. May we all have wisdom, foresight, and compassion in the difficult days to come. Blessed Be.


Benjamin Franklin Warned Us About Trading Freedoms For Safety, A Warning As... Oct 4th. at 12:57:18 pm UTC

Seeker (Tonopah, Nevada US) Age: 0 - Email


Benjamin Franklin warned us about trading freedoms for safety, a warning as valid today as it was over 225 years ago!
Yes, we have a problem with the media repeating government's big lie that we have'liberties', not RIGHTS. So many people, many left-leaning pagans included have seen no problem with restrictions on our second amendment rights, perhaps now some of these people understand what happens when any right is abridged?
I will take my changes in a less secure country than ever, ever, ever surrender one of my precious and uniquely American rights. Too many of us served to defend them in times of war, with many dying in the process.


In A Word, No. I Think That A Lot Of The Call... Oct 4th. at 12:28:18 pm UTC

Aedh Rua (New Richmond, Wisconsin US) Age: 35 - Email


In a word, no.

I think that a lot of the call for the surrendering of our civil rights in the wake of the attack is self-serving, to say the very least, and would in any case do little to make us safer. The attack was a terrible thing, and I support every effort to help the survivors, and those who didn't survive, for that matter. Likewise, I do support an effort to remove al-Qaeda from the miseries of its existance, if only to make sure that they never do this sort of thing again.

However, it seems to me that those who are calling for us to give up are rights are invariably white, male, Fundamentalist Protestants whose genocidal agenda is very well-known. Almost immediately after the attack, they began calling for more restrictions on our private lives, and began suggesting that we would have to give much more power to THEM in order to be safe. They have also been trying very hard to equate public Christianity with patriotism, and have been suggesting all along that Pagsn, secularists, and followers of many other religions are somehow less American. They have indeed been having quite a bit of success, as the sudden rise in displays of the Ten Commandments in courthouses, and the resurgence of religion in the classroom points out.

The real truth is that armed sky marshalls, who used to exist without violating anyone's civil rights, and decent counter-intelligence would have prevented this attack without any surrender of our liberty. The same people whose incompetence allowed this attack to happen are now calling on us to give them more ability to order us around, with less oversight, and no indication that they are cleaning their own house. This is, quite frankly, unacceptable.

The very first day of the attack, I expressed my fears that it would lead to a stampede to do away with the freedoms which we have enjoyed for 200 years. This is indeed happening, and we are already moving down a path which will probably end with internal passports and checkpoints at each town. Given the track record of our fundie rulers, this will not make us one iota safer from terrorism, but might well make us very much less safe as Pagans. For that matter, in the kind of society I am describing, a good fundie can also find him or herself disappearing into some torture chamber merely for going out with expired or incorrect papers, or for having a neighbor who wants his/her property.

If we want to stop terrorism, we need to know who the terrorists are, and not to let them into the country. We should also each be vigilant on our own. If you run a flying school and someone you don't know comes to you with a sack of cash, wanting to learn to fly a plane, and can offer no good reason why, you should probably call the police. If they aren't wanting to crash the plane into a building, or spray people with anthrax, then they are probably going to use it to fly in a few hundred kilos of coke.

This kind of vigilance is also known as common sense. It seems to be in very short supply among our leaders, and giving up our rights cannot substitute for it.


Civil Rights At The Airports I Would Gladly Give Up For Security... Oct 4th. at 12:12:59 am UTC

keith randall (theodore, Alabama US) Age: 25 - Email


civil rights at the airports i would gladly give up for security, government facilities you would definitly have to expect it. but as far as personal privacy rights or those that pertain to my right to faith no not at all, in the words of one of the greatest leaders of this country "you would have to pry it from my cold dead hands first!" not to say that i dont support them looking out for our best interest but there has to be a line they cant cross. and believe me i have nothing to hide all they have to do is ask me and i'll tell them.

thanks for hearing my rantings,

blessed be all aquapheonix


My Answer Might Be Vague, But It's The Best I Can Come... Oct 3rd. at 10:04:39 pm UTC

John ("New Naumkeag", Ohio US) Age: 34 - Email


My answer might be vague, but it's the best I can come up with right now. I'm willing to give up enough freedom to reasonably reduce the chances of another mass-murder terrorist attack; I am *not* willing to give up so much freedom that we do the terrorists' work for them.

Translation?

I have no problem with tighter security and long lines and searches and so on at airports, bus and train stations, stadiums, etc. I also have no problem updating surveillance laws to take account of internet and wireless communications. BUT, I don't want cameras on every light post, national id cards, the government monitoring everyone's communications, etc.

In short, I know we have to strike a balance between increased security and protecting our freedom; but, I'm just not sure (is anyone?) about exactly *how* to do that.


Oh My Godess! I Made The Mental Note After Posting 3 Responses... Oct 3rd. at 8:48:30 pm UTC

MoonGodessIsis....Crystal (Johnstown, Pennsylvania US) Age: 26 - Email


Oh my godess! I made the mental note after posting 3 responses to last week's question that I wasn't going to do this, but as a former debate team award winner, I just can't help myself. LOL

First of all, I have to address this whole Osama Bin Lauden thing...he publicly expressed some three weeks before this happened that he was going to launch an 'unprecedented' attack on the US. So, for those of you who so naievely believe that the government did not know this....well...anyway...

Have you ever seen 'Enemy of the State'? Please believe that the tracking, communication and investigative devices used in that film are by no means ficticious or fantastical, they exist...probably 10 times more advanced than what this government will let you know about. I got that from a reliable source in the Marines.

As far as tracking your personal histories go...well it's already been going on, for probably a century. I'm going to tell you a story, but please, do not think less of me, or think that I would actually do any such thing. I am only writing it to let you know it can be done.

I have worked at various telemarketing firms, and because most of my work has been through a temp agency, I have worked at huge insurance companies, for mortgage companies, credit card companies, bank loan offices, etc...do you see where I am getting? From just the little bit of knowledge I picked up from all of these places, coupled with some telemarketing skills, I could call virtually anyone and get information from them. With a little investigative technique, probably very elementary, I, a lowly office worker, age 26 could, without any hacking skills, could get into your life, ruin your credit, take over your identity, expose your affairs, anything, if I had the desire to do so!

As for the government listening to your phone calls...well, there is a little known fact about FCC operators; they do listen in on phone calls, they listen for certain words, taken out of context which would be cause for alarm. FYI, because talking over the telephones is considered open air, you could be fined by the FCC for cussing on the phone, no matter who you're talking to.

...most of you who have read the Bible, and know anything about ancient history know that for example, the persecution of witches was for government gain, personal gain...anything but an actual religious good deed. So, do you mean to tell me that you actually think that there is no hidden agenda in what is going on right now, or that we, as a Democratic American Peoples know everything that is going on? Please.

As a matter of fact, the FBI is probably reading this right now, and i'll be dead tomorrow from an accident, because they probably think i'm an anarchist, when really, i'm just a peaceful skeptic.

Look at all the people who wasted so much time building bomb shelters for fear of Atomic war. Hindsight is always 20/20, right?

And finally if you, as Pagans, believe that beyond this earthly existence, there is a better place, then what is all the commotion about anyway? Are you afraid of dying, or are you afraid of losing some things in a material world that mean nothing on the soul path anyway? Then maybe you should reconsider your paths, because in my lowly opinion, the fear of loss and death is best associated with the Fundamentalists.

I feel great emotional pain for the loss of so many lives, simply because not everyone thinks as I do, and there are so many children affected by this. But I honestly believe that it will be business as usual eventually, and while there will be beefed up security in certain areas, we will still be able to live our lives freely. Unfortunately, there is a price for everything, and if the price for freedom is being targeted by terrorists and activist, then by all means, raise the shield of protection, but realize this, when the shield is in front of us, we cannot see what's coming at us, and where is the freedom in that?


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