The opinions posted on the Pagan Perspective pages are those of individuals and are not neccessarily shared or endorsed by the Witches' Voice inc.
Posted: Nov. 17, 2002
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The Pagan Web 2002... Your likes? Dislikes?
No other spiritual paths have embraced the web as dramatically, quickly and extensively as the Pagan communities [Link] have done.
So here we are some 8 years later... What do you look for in a Pagan Web site? What brings you back? What are you tired of? What is missing? Do you believe that the noise to signal ratio is out of whack? Too much chatter? Too Little?
What changes have you observed? What trends have you noticed? What do you see for the future of the Pagan web?
NOTE: Mean spirited attacks against specific Pagan Web sites will be promptly removed.
| Reponses: There are 50 responses posted to this question.
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| Hadn't Thought Much About It ||Dec 4th. at 7:15:27 am EST|
|squib (Oregon) ||Age: 32 - Email |
at least, not until last week, when i googled "incense recipe". The amount of lifting and blatant plagiarism was staggering. Countless pages full of the same, exact stuff. The same spells. the same oil recipes. the same rituals. But no actual interesting content. Lots of fluffy stuff (whatever floats your boat, man...) but nothing really to sink my teeth into. Lots of people adore the creative, beautiful aspect of the gods and goddesses but manage to completely ignore the darker natures of the same.
Really, the only pagan site i've found that i reaaally enjoy, and come back to constantly, is this one :). Content updated constantly, different voices, different ideas... it's what it should be.
As for the commercial sites, well, some are fine. Some people DO put a lot of love and effort into what they make to sell. Maybe it's expensive, but it's expensive because it's been proven to fetch the price asked. You don't have to buy it. You can spend the time to gather the things needed or the money to buy the components and perhaps see why they bring the prices they do - that's a lot of work and effort (anyone check the going rate for bulk benzoin? Criminy....) I'll not begrudge a craftsperson for wishing to make a living off their talent, me being in a band and all...
| The Pagan Web ||Dec 3rd. at 4:21:06 pm EST|
|Starling (Montreal, Canada) ||Age: 24 - Email |
What I look for in a Pagan website, nowadays, is a sense of community, acceptance of everyone's way, information on current issues pertaining to the religion, as well as to related subjects, information on what's new as far as books, movies, music goes (that's Pagan-related). A website where I can state my opinion, without being be-littled by people who think their way is the only way.
What brings me back, is definitely the design, the information therein, the frequency of the updates, and whether or not the information is relevant to whatever I am currently into. Recently, I was very into cooking recipes, and I found a Pagan forum that had all kinds of recipes classified in many different ways, whether seasonnal, cultural origins, etc.
What I am sick of is fancy cursors (they simply annoy me), animated gifs (urgh...), dark backgrounds with dark writing, or colors that clash too much (yeow, my eyes!), sites that are simply too graphics heavy (especially when there's a pentacle every square inch or so...). I am also sick of the attitude of some people who think they're all that, whether fluffy or non-fluffy. Too 'fluffy' simply is of no interest to me, too much of 'We are right, everybody else is wrong' sickens me, and 'I hate the fluffs, they stink' well, those people should realize that everyone has to start somewhere, and instead of putting others down, they should try to GENTLY show them something more, and if they (the so-called Fluffs) don't want to hear it, then so be it! Either way, get over yourselves...
| From A Webmaster ||Dec 3rd. at 3:16:39 pm EST|
|Greyhart (Colorado) ||Age: 38 - Email - Web|
As a Pagan Webmaster, or a Webmaster who is Pagan, I have an issue or two from the OTHER side. I hate getting email from people who give you a piece of their mind, but then neglect to tell you which site they were on.
For example (This is an actual email I got a couple of days ago.):
"Why is this page even here NOTHING works in it ,most of the links and not good anymore....
Take it down or keep it updated.
Really kind of gives us a bad nman as being lazy and not careing."
Now, I have three active sites that I run, Some pagan, some not. I also probably have a few old sites that were "free web space with your account" that I haven't worked on for years. I would have removed these sites, but in the lapsed time sice they really were active, I've lost track of the passwords.
If you have constructive criticism, tell me. I'm open to other points of view. If you are going to criticize, at least tell me WHICH site you're looking at. It's easy enough to tell when it's a site that has it's own domain, but if it's one of the free sites, I won't have a clue unless you tell me, and if the links are out of date, and the calendar of events says 1997, then you can probably bet that it's an old site that is no longer active. If the site is still active, the links all should work. If they don't, then yes, I want to know about it, but don't scream at me with bad grammar, and expect a nice response. If you're going to acuse me of being lazy, and not caring, you should at least proof read what you're emailing for grammatic and spelling errors. I'm not going to take you seriously if you're going to tell me I'm lazy, and you're too lazy to check your own spelling.
I put time and effort into creating, and maintaining the websites I have. I'm not perfect, and there may be mistakes in content, or coding. I do my best, and I would hope that others coming to the sites would understand helpful information is welcome, flame letters will only get you quoted in a public forum.
| Whatever Floats Yr Boat ||Dec 3rd. at 3:13:16 pm EST|
|lilith (la ciudad de nuestras senora de los angeles) ||Age: 33 - Email |
 witchvox-- very much! structure is good, graphics arent overwhelming, it is updated frequently, seems to have fairly intelligent readers, allows for disagreement, and guess what-- YOU CAN ACTUALLY READ IT because its not done in purple on a black background! hey! how about that!
 there are a plethora of good tarot related sites on the web. while i dont specifically think of tarot as witchy or pagan, there's no denying a slight connection between the two, and damn, there are some great tarot sites out there.
dislikes [unfortunately more of these than the other]:
 most websites, not just pagan ones, are poorly designed and poorly thought out. and above all else, hasnt ANYONE out there heard of spellcheck? or learning some basic grammer? or the dictionary?
 dark on dark cannot be read. period.
 the new agey-fluffy strata that so many feel inclined to bitch about is annoying. about as annoying as the Anne Gwish "i painted my turtle black-- am i spooky?" clique. i dont care how beautiful you think the world is and how many poor witches you think were burned at the stake some hundred years ago, and i dont care how many times you have read the satanic bible and how much black you wear. it is utterly irrelevant. i wear more black than you do anyway.
i think as a subset dislike i would add
 personal revelations and how much of an expert you think you are when you have read three books, all by buckland or cunningham, and how you discovered paganism three months ago through ren-faire, or how the movie "the craft" effected yr life-- all of that does not provide an iota of enlightenment to anyone else. or, put another way-- there is very little PRACTICAL information and knowledge out there. i think ashe winterwolf said it best in an earlier post.
 cumbersome slow-loading sites are annoying no matter who has one.
 plagarism. dont get me started.
anyway, thats my bit.
| Gotta Have It ||Dec 3rd. at 1:11:10 pm EST|
|Ciarrai (New Jersey) ||Age: 35 - Email |
At one point in my life, I think I may have hit just about every site that I possibly could (in addition to making some major bookstores rich, that is, until I learned about the buying power w/ Pagan Pride!) I've learned, I've been amused, I've been disappointed, and I've been offended, but it was all necessary. All part of what I need to learn. It's good to know that if I need to "surf" about that I can. It's great to know that I can go to WITCHVOX and find everything that I want & never be afraid to ask for it. It's wonderful to know that I don't depend on it - I now ENJOY it. Like I said, we just gotta have it!
| Pagan Web 2000 ||Dec 3rd. at 12:44:54 pm EST|
|steven (winnipeg) ||Age: 19 - Email |
I think, for the most part, the responses given here have been reasonable and thought provoking! It's nice to see such sincere interaction taking place.
I definitely agree with the comments about similarities between personal pagan web sites within the past few years. It's something that appears to have gotten better recently, but for a while there, everything looked as though it had been plucked from a "free design set" web site. You know the ones, standard border background with buttons & an overly large, standard issue header graphic. Or the contrary, pages that seem drab as though the author was neglecting the potentially creative side. In this respect, it seems no one is happy - even if you are someone who started from scratch. You've got one person who comes for the beautiful graphics you've spent hours stirring up, and an equally unhappy person complaining about the fact that they're sick of seeing imagery of the Moon depicted on a page like yours. You can't make everyone happy, so I've learned to use common sense while designing what I know most will enjoy.
Content is certainly an important part of a pagan web site. Unfortunately, most don't seem to go much further than "A simple candle ritual", for example. It's a shame, and I'll have to agree; for the majority, the content of the pagan sites out there is tantamount with one another. Bigger text doesn't necessarily mean a larger article! Though text-stealing shouldn't occur, I really liked the comment made earlier about how one person may take a ritual, for example, and recreate it to their own likings; expand the ritual & make it work for them. As long as there's something interesting underneat that "Table of Contents" header. ;)
If I see or hear a midi begin to load on a pagan web page, I'm usually to leave immediately and do my best to avoid ever returning. I'm not quite sure why the pagan web (especially) has found the overuse of midi files on their pages, a successful webcrafting tool. It's about as impressive as the blink-tag that hasn't worked since Netscape 2. Enough said.
It seems that the web sites that were beginning to gain a lot of common interest a couple of years ago have almost flourished nowadays, earning the credit & top-spots on the search engines they deserve. It's nice to see that the web seems to be weeding out the smaller sites with less original content, and these older & more well rounded sites are stepping to the plate (so-to-speak).
But as much critisizing I may have done here, the web is an extremely great way for people of a common interest to network and voice their opinions. If we're all not established webcrafters, we should observe forethought when commenting specifically. How much time has gone in to a certain web site? How much of this person's own money has been fronted in hopes of establishing their own publishing outlet? Of course, this goes for any site, pagan, religious, or otherwise.
& if the contrast of a little light on dark here and there is too much stress for your eyes to take, pick up a pair of spectacles, grandpa! lol.
| What I Don't Like And What I'd Like To See ||Dec 3rd. at 12:42:10 pm EST|
|Ashe Winterwolf (Irving, TX) ||Age: 38 - Email |
I've lost track of the number of websites that have the same basic information you can find in a hundred different Wicca 101 books. I also dislike finding out that the website creator has been practicing for less than a year, read three books, and now are telling all of cyberspace they have enough knowledge to teach others.
What I would like to see are more sites geared to Elders and experienced practitioners. How do you deal with the covener who is habitually late or continues to bring their crying baby to circle? How do you deal with a solitaire who is doing through a spiriutal crisis and seeks you out for advice? What are the limits to the amount of counseling that should be done by a HP/S or a coven before the person receiving counseling should seek out a professional. How about more sites that offer intelligent essays and the insights of long-time practitioners? These are things that would be of great value to our community, not having another site describing the Quarters and their corresponces or the Sabbats for the umpteeth time.
| State Of The Pagan Web ||Dec 3rd. at 11:56:14 am EST|
I'm fairly new to the Pagan Web community but a theme that seems to pervade the majority of websites is the unnecessary/overuse of graphics and distracting backgrounds. This makes the content hard to read and the site painfully slow to load for those with dialup access.
I think that group oriented sites like discussion boards, mailing lists, etc are a great networking tool but I have to agree that they are usually dominated by a few active users. However, this is not unique to the Pagan community, it’s human nature. On a positive note, there are enough of these sites out there that you should have no trouble finding one that suits your personality.
Fluff is rampant. The Internet provides us with the ability to post the electronic equivalent of a roadside billboard and for a lot of people, it’s their only connection with the larger Pagan community. Forgive them their exuberance and use guest books and forums as they were intended. Provide your host with some positive feedback as well as some sage advise.
Focus on your interests and don’t try and make your site all things to all people. If you follow a particular path then focus on it and share your knowledge. There are others traveling the same path that can benefit from your experience.
Overall, I enjoy surfing the Pagan web since it allows me the opportunity to meet and interact with such a diverse group of people.
| The Pagan Web ||Dec 3rd. at 9:22:37 am EST|
|Sian (UK) ||Age: 30 - Email |
There are a vast number of websites out there, many of which appear to be identical - plagiarism appears to be rampant!
It also seems that some of the website designers are trying to out do each other in being more 'witchier' than thou. Please could I ask that when you are designing a website, that you think about readability - not everyone is blessed with perfect vision and red fonts on a black background are not a great help!
I think the one thing that amazes me the most is that people are putting things out that are badly typed and badly spelt. I know that there are differences between UK and US spellings - but really! I mean, what image are we trying to portray here? To be honest, some of the websites that I've seen seem designed to say to the viewer (to coin an old fashioned British phrase) 'I'm as thick as a brick'. While I know we shouldn't pander to the prejudices of our detractors, giving them an easy target - "this person is obviously stupid and therefore easily led by evil occult beings/Satan" - is not the way to go.
Yours, in exasperation
| The Web We Weave ||Dec 3rd. at 8:28:32 am EST|
|Natalie Lincoln (Indiana) ||Age: 23 - Email - Web|
In addition to being a Witch, I am a professional graphics designer, and have been a professional webdesigner for half of a decade now. I have watched the Pagan Web "grow up" in the last seven years, from small communities and chat rooms of technopagans scattered across the 'Net (and WitchVox with black backgrounds!) to the behemoth it has become. Truly, as the Internet grew, so grew the Pagan community.
There is much that I love about this growth. Not only is it exciting to see so many people coming "out of the broom closet" (even if only online) but also there is a plethora of information available to anyone with a little time, patience, and a webrowser. The Web has opened my eyes to new ways of looking at Paganism: Discordanism, Reconstructionalism, and Thelema, just to name a few. This is not the kind of information found in your mother's Llewellyn books! So much information is available that I can truly say that I learn something new EVERYDAY from the Pagan online community.
*ahem* However, for all that I love about the Web we are Weaving; there is much that I equally disdain. Plagiarism runs rampant on the Internet. Too often are graphics, content, and formatting swiped without permission, credit, or even a second thought! The Pagan Web is choking with spinning pentacles, purple flames, and dancing pixies created by an un-credited artist that serve no purpose and eat up load time. Many Pagan webdesigners seem to be cursed with poor judgment concerning background and text color contrast, along with an insatiable urge to add .midi files to all of their pages. They often list every award, banner exchange, webring, and colored ribbon cause en mass to the front page of their website. Disinformation is repeated ad nauseum, and, yes, fluffiness in content has become the plague of the modern Witch's website.
Call me an optimist, but I do think that we can do better. Pagan/Heathen/Witch/Occultists are some of the most creative, resourceful, intelligent people that I know. Certainly we can weave a Web that truly serves the community, and fully expresses our creative potential as a whole. I, personally, would love to see more websites devoted to the *actual* history of Modern Witchcraft (as in Triumph of the Moon), Reconstructionalism (Hellenic, Middle Eastern, and Egyptian are all promising looking subjects), Initiated Traditional Witchcraft, and the re-blending of Western Occult Ceremonial Magick Traditions with Witchcraft (this is the goal of my own personal site). I want to see credit given where credit is due for graphics, research material, bibliographies, the history of "traditional" and "public domain" works! I want to see new graphics, new rituals, new songs and chants and Sabbat celebrations! I want to see our Web grow to reflect our love, our humor, our creativity, and our humility.
The Pagan Webcrafter's Association is a great place to begin our work. If you are a Magickal Webmaster/designer please check out the link, and consider joining the mailing list.
Link to More info related to this post -- HERE
| KUDOS TO WITCHVOX ||Dec 3rd. at 4:27:15 am EST|
|Moon (NY) ||Age: 41 - Email |
I love your site. It is the only one I go to on a daily basis. As for the rest, they are poorly constructed and all pretty much seem the same. They want your money. Bottom line. Most info sites suck and are done by amatures. You can't pass on info if you are one-sided or ill informed yourself. I surf around quite a bit and have seen nothing that compares in the least to Witchvox.
| My Solution ||Dec 3rd. at 1:35:20 am EST|
|Beige Allen (Phoenix Arizona USA) ||Age: 34 - Email - Web|
Like so many others surfing the net, I was dissappointed with the lack of quality informative sites for pagans of various paths. I too was tired of the sites that started strong and then were just left as a monument of what they could have been, as well as the number of sites created it seemed by teens who treated their new found path as just another trend to chime off about for 3 days until the next great thing came along.
Many of the more informative sites seemed to be buried in a sea of witchy chesse and we all know what too much cheese can do to the digestive tract.
Using sites like Witchvox, Imbas, and several others I decided to try and create my own. Maybe there was something in the creation of a site that encouraged the sloppy sites to outweigh the good ones. If you want to know how well I did, check out my site.
Okay enough of what seems like a shameless plug on to some of the issues I found in creating a site that can lead to the proliferation of "bad pagan sites".
1. Number of fluffies. Nuff said about that.
2. Time involved in maintaining a top quality site. I spend 40 hours a day just in research and writing for mine, I can only guess how long the folks here at Witchvox spend on their efforts. In addition, since the site does not pay the bills, I have to have an alternative source of funding. It would be nice for any webmaster if they got 25 cents per page view but unless there is some sort of side venture tied in, the odds of that are nil.
3. Cost involved in running a site. Most people think about the cost of a site as just the cost of the domain name and the space you need, some even know about having to pay for bandwidth. But as anyone who runs a site can tell you there is more involved than just that. With mine for example there are research costs, travel expenses, office supplies, and a host of other concerns. When we wanted to get the word out through the local Pagan Pride Day festival, there was the cost for our booth, everything we had in it, the space itself. Yes we did sell items as well as pass along information for free, but of course we had to make back the money we spent.
4. Lack of commentary from those reading your site. You can only put up so many forms and so many guestbooks, if people do not respond, then the time is wasted. I even make suggestions to people that cannot think of anything to post of things they could post. Why is it most guesbooks are used as electronic slam books instead of the great networking tool they can be. I have encouraged people to post their pet causes, the news item that got them the most upset, a hug to anyone that needs one, or a request for aid (you never know what can happen from a few well placed words). And yet with all the hits we get daily and all the membership apps that people are filling in, there is almost no direct feedback. How do webmasters know what the websurfers want to see if they do not extend the effort to tell us.
5. Selling sites. I have nothing against someone trying to make a living, pagan does not mean chained to poverty. However I do think the sameness of the wares is a little disconcerting. Granted there isn't much you can creatively do to make incense different, but honestly there are too many sites out there that like to sell grandma's old bedspreads refashioned into cloaks. this is the one area that I cannot empathize with as in the shopping for my own budding enterprise I found a dragon's hoard of fine quality merchandise that has a high pagan appeal without the higher than Olympus pricetag.
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