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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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80. Polytheist, Monotheist, Dualist or Other? - [104]

79. Have You Switched Pagan Paths? - [110]

78. Would You Take Part in a Public Event or Protest AS a Pagan? - [268]

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53. What is 'Will' or 'Willpower'? - [19]

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48. How Fares The First Amendment? - [20]

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36. Should the United States Apologize to China - [32]

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34. What Are Your Views on Abortion, Euthanasia and Suicide? - [95]

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30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

29. How About Some New Holidays? - [39]

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23. Who or What is a "Pagan Leader"? - [61]

22. What More Do You Want To Know About Paganism? - [45]

21. What is/was your New Year's resolution? - [19]

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7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

6. What are YOU planning for Mabon-Autumn Equinox? - [14]

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3. Church and State, Religion in School... What is YOUR View? - [122]

2. How Do You Define Witch/WitchCraft? - [42]

1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]



















 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 4,707,340  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 289

Lurker/Post Ratio: 113 to 1

Question of the Week: 60 - 10/1/2001

What About Those Pagan Leaders Again?

As we mentioned in our homepage introduction, the question of who our 'Pagan Leaders' might be has again been raised. And perhaps that is a good thing as the world situation has changed and perhaps the views of Pagans on the topic have changed as well. We would request that those who continue to support the decades old view that Pagans do not need national leaders also then address the question of what should we do to comfort/represent our own at a national level in times of crisis seeing as most folks in the Pagan community are still solitaries.

We request that those who take the position that national leaders are (or may) be needed to represent the Pagan communities in times such as this also address the question of how these 'leaders' would be supported financially in order that they might afford to work full-time for the communities and/or take emergency/diplomatic trips to seats of political power to represent you.

And finally, just where would the national election for 'Pagan Leaders' be held? Without such an election, any national 'Pagan Leader' would by necessity have to be an 'appointed' one, wouldn't he/she? (Just who does the appointing has always been interesting.) This question is one of a 'national' Pagan leadership and the benefits and/or drawbacks of such. Local and community Pagan leaders/advocates/facilitators are already in place and generally do a wonderful job where they are.

 Reponses:   There are 289 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


That Is A Tricky Question... Paganism Is Not Some Kind Of Monolithic... Sep 25th. at 9:38:06 am EDT

Raindancer (Christchurch, New Zealand) Age: 53 - Email


That is a tricky question... Paganism is not some kind of monolithic "ONE WAY" TM religion but one with many traditions, beliefs, and viewpoints. Then there are us Solitaries who are so, in large part because we don't particularly want or feel the need for a "Leader".

Yet it may be true that spokespeople on a national or even international level may be needed. So what do we do? I think that part of the problem people may have in wrapping their heads around this, is because perhaps Leadership in a religion is thought of in a spiritual sense as well as a politico-social sense. People think of the Pope who is leader of the Catholic Church both spiritually as well as temporally. People think of that, and vote with their feet.

We aren't Christians, we don't have to equate one with the other. While we may have a wide variety of paths, and ways of connecting with the infinite, we also have as a people certain core beliefs and needs as people that we share. While keeping their noses out of peoples'beliefs, I don't see why they can't focus on the overall needs of the Pagan community that transcend individual traditions or variants. As long as we keep them separate, there should be no problem.

Who should those leaders be? Beats the heck out of me... Maybe some people might suggest some of the prominent writers like Starhawk, Silver Ravenwolf, an others. Maybe... maybe not... articulating religious beliefs well may be useful, but a Pagan Community leader will need a great deal more than that.

They will require huge amounts of People skills, ability to transcend any particular Tradition and be able to understand and communicate the broad pagan themes and core beliefs to a people who know little if anything about what and who we really are, and who may view us with deep suspicion if not hatred and fear. Some of these people might well be writers, but others may yet be unknown and will bubble up to the surface as the issue is hashed out.

The key element to doing it right, I think, is to keep what you might call "Church and State" separate. Articulate our common beliefs, educate the public, go face to face with the world for us, but stay out of our religion.

Maybe the best way is through a Council that includes a spectrum of pagan belief, rather than one or a few charismatic Leaders, and a party line. I feel suspicious of "Leaders", I like accessible "spokespeople" better.
Blessings and Light
Raindancer


Even Though All Pagans Are Very Different, I Do Think It Is... Sep 25th. at 8:28:19 am EDT

Esmeralda (Perth, Western Australia AU) Age: 17 - Email


Even though all pagans are very different, I do think it is high time we have a group of leaders, not from just one sect, but maybe from a whole range of them, for instance, one Wiccan, one Druid, one from CAW and one from the fellowship of Isis, maybe? I know this may seem at bit over the top, but in order for people to accept us, they first have to SEE us in public, actually recognising other relgions!


Want A National Spokesperson For Pagans? Here Are Some Thoughts.. Who Would... Sep 25th. at 8:23:58 am EDT

Penrath (Austin, Texas US) Age: 32 - Email


Want a national Spokesperson for Pagans?

Here are some thoughts..

Who would best represent the Pagan community as a whole? without the tendancy to lean towards thier own personal path?

Should it be a council of more than one? Maybe a council of 13?(I'll leave that special number to the numerologists!**grin**)

What kind of responsibilities woud they have? Lobbying at the Capitol? Holding press conferences?

What effect would this have on the nation as a whole? How much attendtion do we need?

With all the attention, what kind of people would come forward, expressing they were pagan, but had altered views (much like terriost groups who kill in the name of Allah). Are we strong enough to tempt that kind of exposure?

These things are just ideas thrown out there for you to munch and mull over. Most likey "National Pagan Leaders" will never come around. Which would be fine, since drawing attention to ourselves on a national level could be a bad thing. Educating the Masses on Who and what we are and what we stand for is a much more difficult thing then simply having a discussion with someone who asks you with genuine curiosity what that star around your neck means.

Consider this, Fundamentalists see Pagans getting national exposure, they get "green eyed" and think that we are "stealing the spotlight" from them and a mini "Holy-war" ensues within our country. The Pagans against the Fundies(Fundies can be any other "religion"..remember it is not confined to Christians).

The thing that concerns me most about all of this is the looming danger that certain amendments may be made "temporarily" to the Constitution. The IRS was a "Temporary" institution(yet I still pay my taxes faithfully, this is not a slam to the IRS) and you see that it is still around!

This is a Holy-War...only difference is "Fundies" of the faith of Islam...think about that for a moment..

Well enough of my rambling..this was a work of a Quad espresso at 7am Central time..

Please pardon my rablings!

Blessed be!

Penrath


I've Been Reading Many Of The Posts Here And Finally Decided To... Sep 25th. at 6:39:02 am EDT

lunaea maris (central valley, California US) Age: 39


I've been reading many of the posts here and finally decided to throw my own 2 1/2 cents in. It seems that individuals who are against the idea of a 'leader' took that to mean someone who would be the head of the pagan community, literally a leader, such as can be seen in most mainstream organizations. This of course is contrary to what pagans find attractive about their faith: the freedom to follow a personal spiritual path without being told who, when, where and how to practice. I think that the idea of a pagan representative is more feasible and might be a first step in bringing attention to paganism as a bonafide religion.

We as pagans seem to be mirroring much of what our country is challenged with: as Americans we want to hold on to the many freedoms that, until the last few days, have been taken for granted. We expect security without sacrificing convenience. We want to be thoroughly informed yet we wish to maintain our privacy. As pagans we relish the freedom of personal expression, of answering to no appointed leader, only to the goddesses and gods we honor. Yet many of us want to be heard and be taken seriously by our national leaders. To be recognized as a valid religion with followers that are as varied as those of any other religion. But that would involve 'organizing' to some extent and maybe embodying some of the traits of our mainstream counterparts. I think many pagans would take issue with that and for very valid reasons. So how do we reconcile these two opposing ideals?

Like many of you I waited to see if any representatives from the pagan communities would be taking part in the 'multi-faith' services held the last few days. I increasingly found myself feeling left out amidst all the chants of 'God Bless America'. A part of me kept saying 'hey, don't assume we all say God!' But after reading a number of the posts here I think I've come to realize that I didn't really need to see someone representing pagans during those services to validate my faith. The healing energies that I send forth from my home are no less effective than the prayers spoken at those gatherings. Paganism celebrates our personal connection with nature and the divine. Having the freedom to experience this in a sacred space which I've created myself is at the essence of why I chose paganism in the first place. Whether others see that as a valid expression of faith or some 'kooky new-agey thing' really doesn't matter to me. Whatever help I can offer I do so not because I'm Pagan or even American, but just because I'm human.


I Am A Solitary With Few Spiritual Contacts. I Keep Myself Informed... Sep 25th. at 4:52:49 am EDT

Zoe (San Luis Obispo, California US) Age: 24 - Email


I am a solitary with few spiritual contacts. I keep myself informed of local, national, and global Pagan happenings as I am sure many do -- through the internet. When the September 11th attack happened, wondering where the Pagan leaders are and what they were going to do to comfort the victims or myself was the last thing on my mind. Once the initial panic for me was past I did what many people did, watch the news and surf the internet looking for prayer vigils and healing circles. By midnight on that tragic Tuesday I was already participating in a national, if not global healing network.

I do not personally think that I need a a Pagan leader, spokesperson, or figurehead to tell me what needs to be done or to comfort me in times of crisis. I have friends, family, and the gods. I am never alone or without comfort. I do not need televised speeches or prayer services to know that. Pagans will do what we have always done; whether alone or gathered together in varying sized groups, we will do the work that needs to be done. In this case donate time, money, or blood. Pray. Cast healing and protections spells. I don't need a spokesperson to tell me to do this. Do you?

To specifically address the open letter's question about where the leaders were when all this happened, honestly I don't know. I think it would be a safe bet to guess that they were doing everything they could do to help. I don't believe that true leaders need to be in the spotlight telling people about what they are doing. I believe that they are out doing it. So in that way, I guess, that makes us all our own leaders.


I Think The Idea Of Pagan Representatives Is A Great One, However... Sep 25th. at 3:56:03 am EDT

Gwen Gardner (Kalispell, Montana US) Age: 33 - Email


I think the idea of Pagan Representatives is a great one, however I think we need to start smaller than that. We need to work on coming together locally, as small communities and then larger communities. Our "leaders" will show up naturally, as the people who coordinate the festivals, lead open circles, start up charity food drives, ect. Many people are already doing these things and more. They have cultivated media contacts and are working at putting a human and humanitarian face on Paganism. As more and more people attend these rituals, festivals and open circles it helps all of us by educating the general public to the fact that there are many people out there with a wide variety of religious beliefs. Eventually, I think our different religions will become more recognized and perhaps that invitation from Oprah will be extended the next time something tragic occurs. Until then, be a local leader, help out at a homeless shelter, give blood, organize a public circle, clean up a section of the hiway near your town. There are literally hundreds of ways that you can be a Representative of Paganism right in your own small town. Making a difference in your community will lead to change in the larger community, which will lead to change throughout the world.


In My Humble Opinion ,i Believe The Pagan Community As A Whole... Sep 25th. at 3:46:44 am EDT

Brandy Z. (Fort Myers, Florida US) Age: 25 - Email


In my humble opinion , I believe the Pagan community as a whole needs some sort of representation . I think that some feel choosing leaders would be chosing someone to answer to. Its not that we need someone to answer to, we do need someone that can speak for us. Leaders who can be taken seriously that can express the feelings of our community. If we want to be taken seriously it has to be done.Setting up a coalition of Pagan leaders from all traditions , then voting for two leaders that represent a majority.A male and a female representative.
I do think an election process would work , through either the net or through local gatherings, book stores, and pagan merchants.Or all of the above.
If you don't want someone to represent you in the media and society as a whole , then don't complain about your voice falling on deaf ears.
Its about time we are taken seriously , and not as a group of hippies that have nothing better to do than sit around wearing sequined capes beating on drums.


Pagan Leaders? Who Here Presumes To Speak With One Voice On The... Sep 25th. at 2:24:21 am EDT

Alaska_Raven (Anchorage, Alaska US) Age: 45 - Email


Pagan leaders? Who here presumes to speak with one voice on the ecletic mix we call "Pagans"? The fact is that our community is as fractured as the christian and muslim ones. We can't agree on beliefs, rituals, gods, goddesses, etc. I am sick of hearing that I must join a coven to "truly understand", or I must follow the Crowley or Gardnerian path. If I wanted organized religion with a goddess feel, I'd go back to roman catholicism and it's adoration of Mary.

And who here wants the ridicule and pressure of the american press? Do you really want the inane questions, the constant badgering, and the harassment that comes with being a high profile pagan? Hell my own family does not know my path, much less the narrow mided citizens with whom I work. Why should we add the pressure of a hostile press? Heed the example of the Freemasons. Lots of bad press, but they refuse to answer it. The profane will never understand.

Bottomline, I go my own way. I make my own path. I answer to no "higher authority" than the Creator when it comces to my religion. I have no Pagan leader.


Many Associations Have Newsletters Or Journals Keeping Members Apprised Of Action And... Sep 25th. at 1:48:46 am EDT

Dia Griene (Hemet, California US) Age: 43


Many associations have newsletters or journals keeping members apprised of action and elections. An association could include solitaries easily. News about the association could be dessiminated through the many paper and net Pagan publications. Many associations do not have full-time staff, but dues for association members who would receive the newletter would help offset costs. Leaders would not have to be full-time, and a group or sitting counsel could spread responsibilities among themselves. Elections could take place by write in or e-mail in ballot through the newletter or web-site and could be advertised by the same afore mentioned Pagan publications. One of the things Pagan value the most is our independence, and membership in an association could be open to all without having to subscribe to a particular creed. The association could be a place for an open forum on the many threads of Paganism and help unite our tapestry without homogenizing us.


I'm Wondering If This Person Is Even Really A Pagan. Why? Well... Sep 25th. at 12:45:52 am EDT

Ally (New York, New York US) Age: 25


I'm wondering if this person is even really a Pagan. Why? Well first of all, she asks why no one was able to predict this tragedy, which sounds like the kind of idiotic thing that a person hostile to Paganism would say...not something you expect to hear from a Pagan. By her logic, why did *she* not glance at her crystal ball and scamper off to call the FBI? That section of the letter makes me very suspicious of this person's true motives in writing it.

I think I'm most offended, though, by the remark about all the leaders of the Pagan community being at a breakfast meeting at the top of the Towers. For those of you who don't know, the famous restaraunt Windows on the World was at the top of the World Trade Center. It normally was not open in the morning, but a company was holding a breakfast meeting on the morning of September 11, and it's estimated that about two hundred diners and staff were there at the time of the attack. On a personal note, my best friend heard a couple of years ago that an old friend with whom she'd lost touch was working as a chef at Windows on the World. She hasn't yet learned whether he was still working there, and if he was at work on the day of the attack. This was her first love, back in high school, and if she were a Pagan and came across this letter, what would it do to her?

This person professes to be concerned for the victims who may have been Pagans, and for their families. Does she care that some of these survivors may have seen her letter and been further upset by it? As others have pointed out, we don't see gays and lesbians, or Orthodox Jews, or Latinos, or Civil Libertarians breaking off into seperate groups to grieve. Our pain is not segregated. And yes, I'm positive that there were Pagans at many of the prayer services and vigils held these past two weeks. I was one of them. When I handed out candles and held people's hands, I didn't ask their religion first. I caught some of the televised interfaith prayer service that was held in Yankee Stadium this past Sunday, and I admit that I waited in vain to see a Wiccan High Priestess step up to the podium, somewhere between the cardinal, the archbishop, several rabbis, mullahs, and a sikh clergyman (don't know the term). But I didn't get too upset. I found the chanted Sikh and Muslim prayers incredibly beautiful, and when the Harlem Boys and Girls Choir sang "We Shall Overcome" and the camera panned across hands of every possible shade clasped in love and support, I didn't check to see if any of them were wearing Pentacle rings.

So to this letter-writer, this so-called Pagan, I say: put down your bullhorn and step down off your soapbox. Go check on your neighbors and see if they need your help, your support, your shoulder to cry on. If you are so hungry for leadership, then lead. Just please try to do it with more compassion and grace than you had when you wrote this letter.

Ally


The Question Should Not Be- "where Are Our Pagan Leaders", But "where... Sep 24th. at 11:35:06 pm EDT

Valerie F (New York, New York US) Age: 31


The question should not be- "Where are our Pagan leaders", but "Where are our pagan institutions?"

The pagan community will never be treated seriously in this country, and our leadership will never be able to make a serious impact unless it builds institutions of both national and local focus which can

a) hold financial resources- both property and dollars, and use them to influence votes and politicans. I'm not talking about "political action committees" but through educating pagans on how local candidates stand on issues of interest to pagans (environmental issues, for example)
b) contribute to the community at large- not by offering spell-casting classes but by attempting to design and implement programs that fill voids in the community-tutoring, et cetera.

IF we can forego our precious anti-establisment, anti-institution biases and our turf wars long enough to create organizations which can claim to address the aformentioned deficiets in our community, we will have pagan leaders who

a) speak to us because they are backed by more than just their ability to lead a workshop or publish a book

b) are respected by other religious leaders because they have the proof of our numbers are our willingness to engage the world based on our world view.

Until this begins to happen the issue of pagan leaders is moot.


I've Read Through A Few Of These Postings Regarding The Question Of... Sep 24th. at 11:31:09 pm EDT

Danae Stormrider (Marina, California US) Age: 32 - Email


I've read through a few of these postings regarding the Question of Pagan Leadership. Most of us have had good and bad experiences with leadership of any kind. Having served in the United States Military for 6 years I am Very familiar with Leadership at it's best and it's worst.

Since Sept 11, 2001 many of us in the local Pagan Community have spoken with many people that have narrowly missed being on those 4 ill fated flights. Two such people are my Step-Grandparents. They still have their Tickets for Flight 93. They decided to come home a day early from vacation. Another friend had just moved to Manhatten. I received a frantic phone call from him as I was the only person he could reach. I spent 3 days calling his family, friends, & boyfriend to tell them he was all right and safe. He was standing on Canal St when the first build was hit.

While we celebrate the safe return of those that made it safely through, we held a rememberance for the dead that night, and the next night, and for many nights after that. We prayed for the safe return of those helpless victims stuck under the rubble. We have mourned, rejoiced and worried with many people in our circle, Pagan and Non Pagan alike.

You have asked where our Leaders are? They are out in the Community, mourning for and with those who have lost, rejoicing with those who survived, and praying for those yet to be found.

The Pagan Community at large has not felt a need to elect an Official High Priest and/or High Priestess before. Perhaps it is time to have one. Who knows. But even if it does happen, there will be groups that state loudly and proudly they don't fall in with THAT group lead by High Priest Moonchaser and High Priestess Sundancer. This is how Coven's split and new traditions are born!

If you are a leader in your Local community please keep doing the work you are doing to help and aid those in your area. That is what is needed.

God/dess Bless!

Danae


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Note: Authors & Artists retain the copyright for their work(s) on this website.
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Website structure, evolution and php coding by Fritz Jung on a Macintosh G5.

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Mail Us: The Witches' Voice Inc., P.O. Box 341018, Tampa, Florida 33694-1018 U.S.A.