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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 5,540,579  

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Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 263

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Question of the Week: 14 - 11/6/2000

The Unresolved US Election

Did YOU vote? Which candidate did you vote for? How do you feel about the political wrangling going on right now in Florida? Will/Should either candidate concede for the good of the country-or should either/both fight it out until we all scream for mercy? How do you think either candidate, if declared the winner, will be able to bring the country together given the inference that the election results now point to an America that is almost equally divided into one camp or the other? And the BIG question-What, if any, impact will the final results have on the Pagan communities?

 Reponses:   There are 263 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


My Vote, As Stated Prior To The Election, Went To Gore. I... Nov 10th. at 9:21:02 am UTC

Tony (Tampa, Florida US) Age: 28 - Email


My vote, as stated prior to the election, went to Gore. I chose him to make my best effort to keep Bush out of the Oval Office. I haven't had opportunity to see the televised coverage or press conferences from either of the camps, so I don't know how they are behaving themselves as the recounts, re-recounts, and counts of absentees are unfolding. However, I do not see an obligation for either party to concede.

The writing of history will determine whether either candidate becomes a "bad guy" -- and I think it will hinge upon whether the movement to eliminate the Electoral College brings an amendment to fruition.

The thing I'm curious to see is actually a bit more personal. I'm neither "in the broom closet" nor "out" at work -- it's not really anyone's business. However, the rabid Christian who sits in the next cubicle is a rabid supporter of Bush (she's rabid about just about everything she does, even vegetarianism) and she has been loudly denouncing Gore as a liar, etc. At one point, I got fed up when she stated, "I don't want that liar in the White House." I responded, "I don't want that bigot in the White House." She looked at me stunned and said, "What do you mean?" I told her how Bush has gone on the record repeatedly against religious minorities, particularly Wicca. She responded, "Oh, those devil-worshippers?" "No, Wiccans don't believe in Satan." I could see the wheels turning, but the computer was citing an input/output error, "Does not compute." She started stammering around trying to fathom how anyone could not believe in the Judeo-Christian god. I'm curious to see whether she makes an issue out of it.


I Voted For Gore. I Feel Awful That So Many People Are... Nov 10th. at 9:20:07 am UTC

Kiwi Carlisle (St. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 47 - Email


I voted for Gore. I feel awful that so many people are
being virtually disenfranchised in Florida. I also feel
that we should wait for the absentee ballot count.

I also think that neither camp can claim a mandate,
which may bring us some moderation over the next two
years, until the mid-term elections.

If it's Shrub, I don't think he'll dare, with this
narrow vote margin, to try any of his more radical
plans, including messing with freedom of religion in
the military. Gore will just leave us alone.


To The Fury Of Many, I Voted For Nader. Granted, I Live... Nov 10th. at 9:00:21 am UTC

Jeff (Aurora, Colorado US) Age: 30


To the fury of many, I voted for Nader. Granted, I live in the state which Jim Dobson's fascist ideology calls home, so there was never any question that Bush would win here. Even so, if I had been in a "swing state, " I still would have voted for Nader. I'm sick to death of hearing how voting for a non-Republicrat is "throwing my vote away." There's not a dime's difference between Bush and Gore; they both serve the same corporate masters. The Clinton/Gore presidency, despite their boasts, did nothing for civil rights. Clinton supported DOMA; Leonard Peltier is still imprisoned for crimes he did not commit; two final words: Efraim Baca. The fact is, the corporate world will dictate policy, whether they do it via Bush or via Gore.

That said, the one thing which concerns me about a Bush presidency (and, despite obvious election fraud in at least one county of his brother's state, Bush will likely be the next president) is the quality of the rhetoric we must endure over the next four years. While Bush will do what corporate America tells him to and little else, he will strut and bluster to impress the Religious Reich (with credit to Isaac for that phrase; gods bless that curmudgeon). I am concerned that this will only help to mobilise the theonazis even more on state and local levels, giving them a sense of empowerment which may well result in increased harassment and violence against minorities (especially minority religions and the LGBT community). Under a Bush presidency, there is a greater danger of Matthew Shephard being a trend-setter instead of a warning against ignorance and hostility. The petty squabbling in the pagan and other minority communities will have to stop, and a united front presented against the superstitious nightmare of fundamentalist empowerment.


My Vote Went To John Hagelin. Living In New York, I Wasn't... Nov 10th. at 8:18:03 am UTC

Andrew Giamis (Binghamton, New York US) Age: 28 - Email


My vote went to John Hagelin. Living in New York, I wasn't afraid of G.W.B. taking the state so I voted my heart. I was hoping for Gore to win.

I would much rather see 'dubbya' stay in Texas, but I am willing to give him a chance if he finally does gain Florida. Gore supporters may have to either accept disappointment or remain bitter. The Constitution is on the side of Wiccans in the military and Congress is so evenly split that 'dubbya' will not have the support to push such a ban. Besides, we have voices. The COG website estimates over 700, 000 witches in the US and growing. That's large enough to be seriously taken notice of. As for me, I plan on speaking out loudly against dubbya's school vouchers, or drilling for oil in the Alaskan wild life refuge. I am still concerned about the Supreme Court.

I am unsure of my feelings towards the Palm Beach issue. I feel that people should have paid closer attention to their ballots when punching the holes. The rules are clear: vote for one canadite. However, voter human error does not explain 19, 000 people making the same mistake. Perhaps a revote would be in order.

The next president had a chance to make a serious difference in the direction of the country. However, because of this election, the next president will probably go down in history as a flop. I have my own preference as to which canidate is most diserving of this 'honor'. Either way, the losing party in 2000 will probably be the winning party in 2004.

Either way, the issue must be resolved quickly or the entire country will suffer.


I Did Vote. I Voted For Gore. Both Of Our Candidates Are... Nov 10th. at 8:10:48 am UTC

Steve Wright (Theresa, New York US) Age: 30 - Email


I did vote. I voted for Gore. Both of our candidates are cut from the same cloth, pathetic. Bush, however, has made the comment that Wicca is not a real religion and should not be supported by the military. I find that incredibly dangerous for us.


I Live In Denmark And (sorry If This Offends You) I Think... Nov 10th. at 6:12:57 am UTC

Linda Laursen (Copenhagen, Denmark) Age: 23


I live in Denmark and (sorry if this offends you) I think the election is a bit ridicules. Last night I saw something on CNN where they were discussing what the world thinks of the US right now. One guy thought everybody was scared that the most powerful country in the world couldn't decide who is the new president. Please... if anything it's scary that the country is divided in two!!! Only half will want the president that gets elected.


I Have Taken A Very Objective View Of This Entire Thing. I... Nov 10th. at 6:10:30 am UTC

Maia BlackWolf (Milnesville, Pennsylvania US) Age: 32 - Email


I have taken a very objective view of this entire thing. I have basically sat back and watched the two major parties act like a bunch of undisciplined, spoiled children. Same thing that goes on every four years. That was due in part to the fact that my intention in this election was to vote with the hopes of getting a much needed third party in this country. So my hopes for this country went way beyond voting for Al Gore because "he's not George W. Bush". I'm sickened of voting for "the lesser of two evils". Knowing full well that we do indeed need to reform our election system, I think introducing more voting options is much more viable at this point than doing away with the electoral college. (There are a few very large states in this country who will not sit back and allow that to happen, ie. have their huge majority powers be taken away.)

I'm tired of people getting themselves into a tizzy over what they THINK Bush will do TO US once he gets in office. Is no one taking into account the fact that the House and Senate are now quite equally divided and that even if Bush does get into office he will have a very hard time accomplishing anything for the next four years? Al Gore would have an equally hard time due to the resentment of about 50% of the people in this country. The Republicans will not be in any sort of cooperative mood after having been "so close" then having it all taken away.

To the Republicans I would say: "Don't count your chickens...". To the Democrats: "What a bunch of sore losers.". The very spectacle of this entire thing tells me that there is an unbelievable amount of underlying resentment and dissatifaction in this country. I only hope that the two major parties will sit back and take good stock of all this and begin to adjust their positions to be more in favor of the people that vote them into office and away from all those big corporations who fund them.


Yes, My Wife - Not A Pagan - And I Voted. We Both Bucked... Nov 10th. at 5:48:16 am UTC

Shadowcatcher (Cincinnati, Ohio US) Age: 54 - Email


Yes, my wife - not a pagan - and I voted. We both bucked the Ohio conservative tradition and went for Al Gore. Among the reasons we chose Gore; environmental concerns, greater sensitivity to health issues, stated goal of using the current budget surplus to pay down the debt rather than give a bonus to the rich and infamous, and the belief that Gore would name Supreme Court justices with a moderate to liberal outlook.

We both worry about official attitudes toward; racial and ethnic minorities, the poor, gays, pagans (Busch says witchcraft is not a religion and worship on military bases should end) and the environment.

Neither man should concede until there is a ballot-based resolution. This may require re-polling Floridians.

If Busch is the elctoral victor there should be no quibbling about electoralversus popular vote count--we know what the rules are. If we don't like the electoral college it should be eliminated legally, not by fiat.

The next four years will be unproductive -- neither presidential candidate has a mandate -- barely a majority-- and the congress -- both houses are nearly evenly divided which sets us up for massive gridlock and polarization.


I Voted. There Was Never Any Question That I Would Not Vote... Nov 10th. at 4:02:15 am UTC

Rich Ostorero (Sacramento, California US) Age: 41 - Email


I voted. There was never any question that I would not vote. It is a matter of exercising a sacred right bought and paid for in blood. A right, incedentally, that a third of the world's population do not possess.

This time around, the choice was clear-cut: Al Gore. Why? because he is not G.W. Bush and because he has the best chance to beat Bush. While I feel that Ralph Nader best represents my spiritual and political beliefs, I could not vote for a candidate with no chance of being elected when Bush said he did not believe that Witchcraft was a real religion.

The political wrangling going on in Florida is fascinating drama, a memorable real-world cliffhanger. It is also a prime example of what I have come to call Gingrich's Postualte. The former House Speaker paraphrased Clauswitz's definition of war: Politics is war conducted by other means.

In this case, the battlefield will be the courts. I expect an expensive, possibly protracted legal battle in which neither candidate will relent until a final decision is rendered by the US Supreme Court. There will be no quarter, no retreat and no surrender.

I expect the vector sum of this struggle to be thus: protracted gridlock on issues important to the American people. The loser of this struggle will take advantage of the near-equal division of power evident by the vote and do anything it can to erase the winner's gains. However, there will be no gridlock on issues important to Corporate America: "free" trade will continue to be shoved down the throats of American working people, HMOs will continue to put profit over health, the environment will suffer while the bottom line prospers, corporations will be allowed to merge without limit.

The impact on the Pagan community can be summerized thusly: In the short term -- if Bush wins, Pagans lose. Military Pagans can expect Bush to prohibit the practice of Witchcraft on military bases. Gays in the military can expect the Bad Old Days to return. We can expect members of militant majority religions to be emboldened in the advancement of their agendas; we can expect court cases where members of majority religions feel they are unable to practice their religion freely because of the presence of Pagans among them. We can also expect Bush to appoint Supreme Court justices who may well change the legal landscape -- deciding that women no longer have a right to control their reporductive destiny or concluding that the Craft is not entitled to First Amendment protection. The Bill of Rights may well be rewritten to apply only to corporations and members of majority religions if Bush packs the courts with right-wing, corporatist activist jurists. Under a Bush Administration, we can expect environmental protections to be eroded in favor of the schemes of corporate quick-buck artists; we can expect consumer protection to have a lower proirity than corporate profits; the needs of global big business will outweigh the needs of the local communities' poor, sick and elderly.

Bush will usher in a new political Dark Age for Pagans.

If Gore wins, we can expect more of the same we got from Clinton. We will still have to fight against globalization; the Battle of Seattle is but a first in a long campaign. Gore won't be an easy President to support. However, I believe that our fundimental rights to worship will not be endangered.

In the long term, a second President Bush may be just the force necessary to catalyze the Pagan community into a hotbed of political activism. We will suffer losses and we will fight back.


I Voted For Nader Because I Felt That Bush Would Win Because... Nov 10th. at 4:02:13 am UTC

lissa (vancouver, Washington US) Age: 23 - Email


I voted for Nader because I felt that Bush would win because he had 207 estimated votes from the electoral college the day before voting while Gore only had 105 or somewhere in that range. I hope that Nader got enough of the voting percentage to provide the Green party with some funding for the next election.

I totally disagree with Bush's ideas and plans to impose his will upon our supposed free country. I have a bad feeling that he will win.

Goddess help us.


I Voted For Harry Browne. Yeah, That Libertarian Guy---what, Because I... Nov 10th. at 3:47:50 am UTC

Amanda (Dallas, Texas US) Age: 27 - Email


I voted for Harry Browne. Yeah, that Libertarian guy---what, because I am Pagan you expect me to be some kind of liberal? I read something on CNN.com the other day that proves illuminating in the light of all the wrangling going on in Florida. It states that Gore would probably take it very hard if he lost. Well, he lost--or maybe he did and maybe he didn't. In any case, he plans to challenge the results and fight for a runoff---gee, how will he do now that Nader is out of the picture? And if he gets what he wants, the GOP would then turn around (with some cause) and state that _Gore_ stole the election by using spurious claims of voter fraud (more like ID10T errors) to force a Nader-less runoff in heavily Democratic precincts. And forcing this Constitutional crisis serves what purpose? Gore's ego. He cannot believe he lost the electoral vote. Yes, he did win the popular vote, but look at the states he won. Some of the most liberal states are often some of the most populous. The Electoral College makes sure that the winner has a broader appeal. If we determined Presidential elections based on popular votes, we'd get as many liberal Democrats as y'all would like, but they'd all be a bunch of Yankees who don't know Silicon Valley from the Grand Canyon, and whose understanding of agriculture begins and ends at the grocery store. All this wrangling and maneuvering is not good for the country.


Yes I Voted, For Al Gore. Although I Wasn't Completely Sure I... Nov 10th. at 3:28:24 am UTC

Wendelyn S. Dyer (Pace, Florida US) Age: 23 - Email


Yes I voted, for Al Gore. Although I wasn't completely sure I wanted Gore in office, I knew for a fact that Bush wasn't the right choice. (I am now positive that Gore is the right man for the job after seeing how is handling the whole re count thing) I have been paying attention to the campaigns (as much as I could) and in the beginning I liked Bush, I felt like we needed fresh blood in the White House. Then RU-486 was approved and that same day Bush went up to the edge, stopping right before saying he would have the FDA ban the drugs here in the United States. Then when his views came out on Wicca not being valid I saw a man who is ruled by the christian church and his bible. (Not to offend anyone, merely my opinion) I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state, and a man who would govern as directed by his religion and not by the people who he governs is not only wrong but scary. I'm also very concerned about the justices of the supreme court. If they were to retire with Bush in office then Roe v. Wade is out the window.

Now on the Florida issue. I live in Florida and I have only seen one other Floridian post here. On Tuesday My brother and I went to the polls togethor, this was his very first election he could vote in, the woman who gave us our ballots did take about 15 seconds (one breath) to explain them, when asked to, basically there was an incomplete arrow, to vote for your candidate you just drew a line through the arrow next to his/her name. There were many candidates for the presidential election, congressional, local school supervisors and some referendums on the back, I understood this, my brother asked her to explain it again just so he would be sure. She looked at him like a complete idiot and treated him as such as she said it once again, this time a little slower. We went to our booths and filled in our arrows.
I'm positive who I voted for and so is my brother.

But if there are 19, 000 ballots in Palm Beach that were thrown out because of double voting, caused by the confusion created by the ballot, they should be allowed to recast thier vote, just so they are certain they voted for the person they want in office. This can easily be done. Everyone has to sign in when they come to vote, so there is a record of whether you voted or not and so be allowed to vote again.
I think that to avoid the chance of confusion in the future there should be a nationally agreed upon ballot, not for every election in every state necessarily, that would smack in the face of states rights but for the presidential election at least.

The Electoral College is outdated and unneeded. We should work towards having a constitutional amendment abolishing it. What is the point in telling people that thier vote counts when in all actuality we as the people of this country do not elect our presidents. For this election, every vote has counted and this will go down in history as the time each and every persons vote mattered.
But the E.C. will have the final say. That isn't the right way to do this, not in these modern times.

To sum up I voted, for Gore, the voters of Palm Beach should insist on recasting thier votes, and the Electoral College has to be rid of.


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