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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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105. Are Pagans TOO Individualistic? - [56]

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99. What Moon Phase Are You In? - [70]

98. Would You Live In A Haunted House? - [166]

97. What Natural Objects Are On Your Altar? - [103]

96. If You Were Granted Three Wishes... - [179]

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94. Who Would Make Your Pagan/Heathen Who’s Who List? - [91]

93. Should Pagans Apply For Federal Funds? - [56]

92. What Do You See in 2003? - [47]

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89. Bah-Humbug! Are You Offended by Christmas? - [173]

88. Are We Alone in The Universe? - [67]

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84. Between the Veils: What Did You See? - [80]

83. Time to Talk Politics and Elections… - [109]

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80. Polytheist, Monotheist, Dualist or Other? - [104]

79. Have You Switched Pagan Paths? - [110]

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71. How Do YOU View the Balance of Light and Dark? - [22]

70. What's News? - [22]

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48. How Fares The First Amendment? - [20]

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30. What Do You Support and Why Do You Support It? - [21]

29. How About Some New Holidays? - [39]

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27. Where Are The Pagan Social Programs? Do We Care? - [22]

26. What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan? - [87]

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24. What is Pagan History and What is Pagan Belief? - [44]

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21. What is/was your New Year's resolution? - [19]

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7. The Ethics of Magick and Spellwork - [43]

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1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]

 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,400,818  

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Question of the Week: 59 - 9/11/2001

911 America: Talking Through The Terror...

Talking Through The Terror... And helping each other cope with the tragedies that struck at the very heart of the United States. The Witches Voice has opened up this forum in order that Pagans may express their thoughts on the terrorist attacks that took place in NYC and DC on September 11th. As the full realization of what happened and the toll numbers begin to come in, Americans have many challenges ahead.

What are your thoughts on these incidents? How are you feeling? Feel free to post any magickal workings or other support gatherings planned in your area.

WebNote 9/16/2001: Since we launched this on 911 this forum as become laced with powerful inspiration and critical information, feel free to use the search functions on your left to better define the info you are looking for. Search for your area, famous Pagans, key words etc. Also check Wren's Nest News for the latest news related to our community.

 Reponses:   There are 969 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

When I Did My Candle Lighting Ritual, I Had Three Candles--one... Sep 15th. at 2:52:03 pm EDT

Rhiannon Goldbear (Fort Walton Beach, Florida US) Age: 36

When I did my candle lighting ritual, I had three candles--one each for healing, peace, and justice. They all burned down in exactly that order.

While I know this is the road we should take, our fellow Americans (and the US Government) see it differently. I wish it would be different, but humankind for the most part has acted this way for thousands of years and I don't see it stopping overnight.

Please encourage unity and peace among all the matter what religious, ethnic, or other background they are. And send protection to the US military forces--including myself as a member--who will be called upon soon to fight and die for this.

Blessings to all who are raising energy for the healing and peace of the Earth!!

When I Turned My Tv On Tuesday Night And Found Out About... Sep 15th. at 2:47:48 pm EDT

Vanessa (Ramstein, Gilbert Islands) Age: 26

When I turned my TV on Tuesday night and found out about the terrible attacks that happened in New York City & Washington D.C., I was horrified and extremely upset. I woke up several times that night with these awful pictures of destruction in my head. My thoughts remain with the victims and survivors of Tuesday's attack on the United States.
But when I read today that President Bush declared, ŇweŐre at warÓ I was terrified once again. According to a recent survey nine out of ten Americans are in favor of a military attack even if it involves shedding blood and loosing lives. HavenŐt we learned anything from TuesdayŐs attack? Violence cannot be fought with counter violence. IsnŐt that what we were taught as children? I strongly believe attacking any Arabian nation will not solve the problems we are facing. The horrible acts of violence that happened this past week are already a reaction to unsolved problems from the past. For the past decades the Arabian people have been suppressed. For example the Palestinians are suppressed by their Jewish neighbors; they turn off their water supply & want to take their land... And for as long as the United States supports countries like Israel suppressing their Arabian neighbors, the terror in this world will not stop. And throwing missiles will surely not put an end to the violence, which America experienced first hand earlier this week, it will only fuel it.

Paradox And Surrealism Echo In My Spirit And The Voice In My... Sep 15th. at 2:47:30 pm EDT

Taelon (New York, New York US) Age: 51

Paradox and surrealism echo in my spirit and the voice in my head I have learned to manage.

I live in New York I heard the first plane and saw the second plane crash..and ....I am tired of the retelling. I find myself seeking world peace more agressively and maybe to have that... we do need to take on the shadow destroyers who would dare to call themselves soldiers in the name of allah or whatever....someone has twisted their minds and confused their teachings.... but why not?... even some of our christian leaders point fingers and say that because we are not christians we are responsible for the "lords" vengeance..that seems to me... to be..more of the same positionality as the madmen who slaughter innocent people. It would seem that the nature of humanity as a whole is to further one's personal adgenda on whatever corpse seems to be handy.
As a wiccan I do not recruit therefore any personal adgenda would seem to further "do what you will and harm none" thus nurturing someone or something. There is no way that against any gods of either gender of any country of any race
I am an American and more than proud of it. Though I do not say that I am better than ...I say I am different than...tuesday night as helicopters arrived in NYC bringing trained teams to aide in the recovery efforts I was kept awake with their roar and jet screams as they flew overhead. Yes I felt invaded and yes I was happy to have them...on wedesday morning after a little complaining about the loss of sleep we realised that there are countries where sounds of war and the stench of death is an every day and every night occurence. Just how good we have it became much clearer.

Okay some neighborhoods are war zones...perpetuated by the recruitment of gangs to hold and or take turf and sell whatever ....guns drugs sex...that is their choice

Yes I have always felt safe here in America and now I dont.. but maybe that is a condition we need to live in to better understand others and no longer take for granted what we have as a result of two hundred years plus of blood and sweat that has brought us to today.It is democracy that allows us to celebrate our faith our beliefs..As wiccans we know the millions who died under the inquisition and the blind cause of the churchs prejudice that carried out an extermination of people and knowledge that the world will never recover from. The Nazis and Jewish people have a similar history...

So I guess to take up the gauntlet and give up being the nice guy and bring light where their is darkness even if it takes the fires of hell to bring light into the dark might just be what it will take..

BB I have taken to daily random acts of kindness for no apparent reason.

One act each day..

try it you will feel better.


Wicca And Deathmany Times I'm Amazed At The Western World's Obsession... Sep 15th. at 2:46:22 pm EDT

Daven (Nashville, Tennessee US) Age: 33 - Email

Wicca and Death

Many times I'm amazed at the Western world's obsession with death. So many times I see intelligent people who are arguably at the peak of their lives reduced to emotional children by the death of a loved one that it still surprises me.

There are times that I find this crippling to be a crime.

Every day, I see ads which will allow the user of these products to extend their lifespan, to live longer, to live fuller, to cure this problem or that problem. I see news stories that talk about how dangerous this thing is, or that that action causes cancer and so on that I want to scream.

Thank the Gods we of Wicca aren't like that. Or are we?

I have known Wiccans to be so devastated by loss as to forget everything they learned and go into that same state of non-functioning that it amazes me. Here is a group that has learned the secrets of life and death, know the wonders of the universe, have finally answered those questions of why we are here, and where we go after. But present them with a death and most, if not all, of that training goes flying out the window.

Oh, we know that our loved one is now in the Summerlands, looking down on us and waiting for us. There are no (thankfully) Hells for our dearly departed to burn in as punishment for their humanity here. But for some reason, we forget all that when a loved one dies, be they a parent, child, friend, puppy, cat or what have you.

Why is this necessary? Is it because we have forgotten these lessons that we are taught? Could it be that we are actually mourning for ourselves? Will we miss them?

I think it is a combination of all of these.

Primarily, we must understand that Wicca is a NATURE-affirming religion, rather than a life-affirming religion. In that I think is the major difference.

Death is part of life. No one has *ever* gotten out of life alive. Even Jesus died. He was resurrected, but he still died first. Death is a natural part of life, it is the last affirmation of life. It is the goal for many, especially those in their declining years. It is a state, no more devastating than a trip to the showers for sports players.

Our loved ones have not died. They are still alive, whole and healthy on another plane, the Astral Plane, with the Gods and with everyone they loved. Do we mourn when a family member moves to another city to scout out the location before we move there? No. That's silly, because we know that they are safe and waiting for us.

It's the same with death. They are not dead, for nothing can destroy that which makes them unique, they still retain all that they are, and they remember us and will be with us again. They are hanging around us, waiting for us to join them in the Summerlands. They still love us, and care for us and are anxiously awaiting the time when they can be with us again, either in another body, or when we die. The only thing that is different is that we can't see them or touch them in the flesh any longer.

But why is that? Their body ceased to function, but through some magickal skills, like Astral Projection, we can be with them again. We can see and talk to them, kind of like a telephone call when our spouse went out of town.

Now, before someone accuses me of being uncaring, I will state that I will be devastated when my wife dies. I have come to depend on having her near me, being able to see and touch and smell her, seeing her sitting on the toilet, talk to her, spend time with her. Yes, I will miss that, but I will also adjust.

See, I know that I shall see her again. She will be waiting for me with open arms. She may have a bit of a wait however. I don't plan on dying for quite some time to come. Hopefully, neither does she.

So, if death is a natural conclusion of being alive, why are we STILL so scared of it? Mostly because we will miss our loved one. Well, let me give you some stories that happened to me.

Once the fear of death is overcome, all death becomes nothing more than a reason to get dressed up and see our relatives. There is no sorrow for the one that passed away, only joy in some senses, and a waiting. I know this for a fact because I have lost all of my grandparents in the last decade, and I have yet to feel sorrow for their passing.

Yes, I did feel bad and cry at one point for my grandmother. I loved her dearly and I can never repay that which she taught me. I can pass it along however, which is one purpose of this journal. However, the only time I cried was when I heard "Leader of the Band" by Dan Fogelberg. It reminded me just how much I owe my Grandmother and how I can NEVER repay her for what she gave me.

But, everyone was concerned about me at the funeral. I showed no emotion that one would consider "appropriate" to the occasion. I didn't cry, I didn't exhibit any sorrow or sadness, nothing of the sort. I was somewhat upbeat and cheerful, I tried to help everyone else with their sorrow.

My grandfather's death was even better or worse, depending on your point of view. I didn't even cry at his funeral, and you would think that I would have. I had been living with him for the past two years, sharing his house, talking to him, learning from him and gaining a respect for him that I did not have in the preceding 31 years.

Before anyone thinks that I'm emotionally bent, I cried like a baby when my dog died when I was 15. I also didn't bury my emotions and reactions either. I have since tried to evoke sorrow and sadness for their passing, and it simply isn't there.

Why do I share this? Because of the mindset that I developed from Wicca. It taught me that death is another stage, like graduation from a grade in school. Nothing more. It took the reason that I would have had for being sorrowful away by giving me something that I did not have before, a sure knowledge that I will talk to them again.

You see, I already have talked to both of them, several times.

Through Astral Projection, I was able to reach both of them soon after they died and speak with them, find out what it was like being dead, and so on. I didn't have to say all the things I wanted to say and never got around to, they both already knew what I wanted to say. I told them anyhow, but they knew. I knew they knew, and everything was mitigated. I could face their deaths without falling apart into little emotional pieces that would take years to put together again. I spoke to them, and shared with them, showed them my love for them, and they showed me their love of me. My grandmother even called me her son, the son of her heart. She had practically raised me when I was under 10.

The purpose of this article is not to open up old wounds about past loved ones. It is to remind everyone reading it that this life is transitory, it is designed that way. This is not our true existence, nor is it our only life. The other life we have without our mortal shell is so much greater than we can comprehend that it scares me. All those we love will be with us, in fact, they never leave us. They are around you, right now, looking at what you are reading, seeing what your life is like and expressing their opinions.

All it takes from you is listening and thinking about them, and hearing in your head what they are saying to you. Nothing can kill them, all that happens is they shed one suit of clothes for another. Like taking off the jeans and T-shirt and putting on a formal outfit to go to a ball.

Remember this, visit them, listen to them, be with them, love them. They are always still around you.

© Daven, 2001 No part of this document may be used without the express, written consent of the author. Email me at

I Heard A Very Sick Caller On Npr This Morning In Regards... Sep 15th. at 2:33:30 pm EDT

Knight Hawk (Fairview Heights, Illinois US) Age: 25 - Email

I heard a very sick caller on NPR this morning in regards to the recent events that have occured. The caller stated that we should just let the events of the past week slide. Her rationalization was that it was perhaps and isolated event, and that if we were to ignore the incidents that it would deny the terrorists the very thing they are looking for, continued violence.

Well, let me shed a little light. This is not an isolated incident:

1. Kobar Towers

2. Twin Embassies in Africa and Tanzenia

3. USS Cole

4. Trade Center Bombing (#1)

5. Trade Center Destruction (#2)
Each of these acts (in random order) have increased in audacity, destruction, and death. This latest incident was extremely audacious and killed several thousand people. Now it has been reported for many years that Chemical Warfare is inexpensive and easy to produce. Not to menion many rougue states have nuculear weapons. What do you think will be the next big audacious attack? LA? Houston? Seattle? St. Louis? Your home?

No ladies and gentlemen, this is NOT the time to sit idle. The perpetrators of these many tragic crimes must be brought to justice. This cycle must be stopped, and if that means war, then so be it!

We can not continue to use God as an excuse to kill other people. We stopped that attitude in the US by ending slavery and all but nuetering the KKK's demonstration rights. Hate groups are criminalized and demonized in the US, why not push that philosophy on a global scale. Hale Allah! For Muslim's your God is as great as any other. It's the extremests who twist that faith into dark areas that leave stains on the religions of the worlds.

Its Taken 4 Days For The Realisation Of The Terrible Events In... Sep 15th. at 2:32:46 pm EDT

zoe lavender (Tunbridge Wells, England UK) Age: 30 - Email

Its taken 4 days for the realisation of the terrible events in NYC to sink in. every morning i have woken up since the tragedy thinking it was a bad dream but then reality hits me and with a heavy heart i make my way to the ambulance station where i work thinking of the people who have lost their lives and loved ones, and the children....... i just cant find the words. i feel helpless and guilty - we were bickering at work over something completely trivial - while my colleagues in the States lost their lives helping others. i want to be there helping out, i feel i should be there. What happens now? i fear for the future of the planet and for us, Her guests. i have read that many of us are meditating for america but each time i try this those wretched tears come. Giving blood was good, it made me feel positive for the first time since the tragedy and i urge everyone who can to get down to your local blood shop and donate some blood. And to the people who are grieving, to the lost souls and to my colleagues who have the terrible job of searching through the rubble, i am thinking of you constantly.

love and bleesings

zoe lavender of Rusthall, KENT, England

Who Wants To Get Together In The Dc Area? When? Today Is... Sep 15th. at 1:47:50 pm EDT

krystal vision (Alexandria, Virginia US) Age: 32 - Email

Who wants to get together in the DC area? When? Today is Saturday, 9-15. If anyone knows of an open gathering that we can attend, please email me...

I Work For, What Is Considered An International Company,intel. Today We... Sep 15th. at 1:19:23 pm EDT

Syl (Rio Rancho, New Mexico US) Age: 39 - Email

I work for, what is considered an international company, Intel. Today we had a bomb threat. As it was on Tuesday, as I sat there in shock looking at what was going on in New York through the eyes of TV, I had the rush of all those emotions rush through me again. All the "could have, would have" talk is not going to do any good today. But as many people feel, I too feel rage, hurt, helplessness, and wish it was all a bad dream. I think of all those people everyday and will for the rest of my life here on our sweet mother earth, and shed tears, it seems on an hourly basis. Some may call me too emotional, but show me one who can indure such sadness and not shed tears and then I will stop!
We must all try not to put too much anger in our feelings. I hear so many people say what we should do, and how we should go in and drop bombs, but please remember we also must think of those that are not at fault in that country as well. We have the ability to make choices, lets make right ones. We have lost so many loved ones, lets not add someone elses loved ones in anger. We have to stand and support eachother and what our president is doing. Send him good energy and pray he makes the right choices. Send up energy to protect our troops, our country, our loved ones. Pray for all those who are personally touched by this attack, and give them love they so much need at this time.
If we do go to war, by all means we may need to help our troops and call on some help, or what I would call back up. We do have energy that we can call on at times of war, but please be careful to control it and use it wisely, especially those that are younge and are not experience in the powers we are able to call on.
Finally, I agree that we need to have a calling of energy and would like to do my part, and be as one. So if anyone has or knows of any spacific time and day, please let me know, I would be more than willing and proud to join you from my little spot on mother earth.

Love and Light to all,


This Is... Awful. The Question Is, Who Would Think That By A... Sep 15th. at 1:08:43 pm EDT

ShadowDaughter (Connersville, Indiana US) Age: 13

This is... awful. The question is, who would think that by a simple act of terrorism (I know, that sounds wrong), it would break America, and the people of it? What does not kill us, ultimately makes us stronger...

Blessed be..

My Sisters And Brothers:last Night I Went To A Performance Of... Sep 15th. at 12:21:57 pm EDT

Jack Cole (St. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 37 - Email

My Sisters and Brothers:

Last night I went to a performance of BLAST! at the Fox Theater in St. Louis. A Christian friend invited me to go, sensing that I'd had a really rough week, and I gratefully accepted. I work in the mental health field, and my company performs crisis debriefings for some of the survivors of the Tuesday incident, and I was thoroughly wiped from all of it. Sad stories, people completely lost and wandering - I couldn't help but cry with them sometimes. We all stood before the performance, and were asked to sing the Star Spangled Banner. So many people cried - the tears of Pagans, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, it didn't matter who shed them. Despite the sadness we all carried all week, I had this overwhelming feeling of raw hope. I want to hold on to that, and pass it along when I can.

I had done my own simple works, being more hedgewitch than anything. The food I prepared, the act of cleaning my apartment, sitting at my altar and staring full bore into the beautiful Autumnal blue skies void of airplanes. When I felt like my reserves of energy were refilled by Them, I started to focus on the people helping the survivors. In my meditations, I kept things short and sweet - heal the injured, strengthen the aid workers, help heal the rift. I'll continue to do simple things to help as time goes on.

I was reminded how good I have it - my cousin who worked in the North Tower of the WTC was in Florida this week. My parents and family are all healthy. I have a job and food to eat. My partner, who works a block from the Sears Tower was safe. I kept myself from even the little complaints we all make about traffic, co-workers, etc. In perspective, those things are nothing.

My hope is that all of us can be the people we were on Tuesday for the rest of our lives. We were openhearted, caring, loving, giving. We called our Families to check in on them, we told people we loved them, we wanted to be helpful, we comforted those around us, and we were also comforted. Those are the things I want to keep with me. That will be the legacy for me of Tuesday's tragic events. I will be the man They know I'm capable of being.

All blessings and hope to you in this difficult time,

October (Jack Cole)

I Felt A Need To Post Here Again. I Have Been Reading... Sep 15th. at 12:14:48 pm EDT

Peg Aloi (Cambridge, Massachusetts US) Age: 37 - Email

I felt a need to post here again. I have been reading with a heavy heart many of the posts on this forum. The words which call for healing, and the words of anger. The words which speak of shock and loss and sadness, and the words which speak on vengeance, violence and retribution.

I am sadddened and angered by those pagans and witches who are expressing their fear and anger with calls to rush to war when the smoke is stil clearing and bodies still lie within heaps of rubble.

I feel strongly that this sort of attitude is what is going to lead us ever more
quickly down the path to World War Three.

Blind, ignorant, hatred.

Rushing to judgment.

The desire to punish when we do not even know who is at fault yet. Judging others based on our own stereotypes and misunderstanding of who they are.

Sound familiar?

This is the sort of attitude that is causing Americans to target other Americans right now: in the streets and neighborhoods of our nation, where we should be drawing together in grief and hope. Mosques shot at and burned; people assaulted and threatened. One woman was chased around a parking lot in a car. Fellow Americnas are neing detained, arrested, targeted because they appear suspicious due totheir skin color or mode of dress. Children are being kept home from school because their parents fear they will be harmed.

This is not helping the situation. Obviously.

I too was disturbed by the news footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating. It disturbs me in the same way as watching my fellow Americans don white sheets and cheer when burning crosses on the lawns of black churches disturbs me. It disturbs me the same way seeing my fellow pagans express passionate cries for vengeance, while simultaneously invoking the Threefold Law, disturbs me.

My point is: every group of people, united by their location or ethnicity or culture, such that we can call them a "community, " has its ignorant members. Those people shown on the West Bank (and I cannot help but notice that we keep seeing the SAME footage of the SAME people again and again; which tells me that may well be a very isolated incident) were ignorant, and hateful. But they are not ALL Palestinians. I would guess some of their fellow countrymen are ashamed of such behavior, just as I have on occasion been ashamed of the behavior of my fellow Americans.

Surely we are all aware that New York is probably the most international of all our American cities? And that a great many of the people killed in this tragedy are Arab Americans, and Muslims, and people of Middle Eastern heritage? Their loved ones are grieving right now. They deserve our solidarity, not our suspicion.

Dropping bombs on a bunch of innocent civilians is not the answer to this enormous, complex problem. It will not stop terrorism. It will escalate the hatred against America that is felt across the globe.

We are in a position to act with calulation and fairness. We are in a position to learn, and to teach our children. In this case, the perpetrators of this act should be found, tried and EXECUTED. I am very much against the death penalty, so for me to say that is significant. I agree with those who have said
they'd like to strap the responsible parties to the front of jets and fly
them into their own capitol buildings. Seems fitting.

But I want to make sure the RIGHT people are punished. I do not want more innocent people, innocent women and children and families, blown up
and burned to death just because they are unfortunate enough, by the accident of their birth and the tyranny of poverty, to be living in a place they shouldn't be at the moment.

Wrong place, wrong time. Right place, right time. It is all a matter of perspective.

We do not live alone. We do not die alone.

"Each man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in
mankind...therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls. It
tolls for thee."

John Donne, Meditation 17

Blessed be in this time which tries us all,

Peg Aloi

(Albion Summerisle Morrison)

Dear Fellow Craftworkers,normally I Am A Nonviolent Person. I Try To... Sep 15th. at 12:12:07 pm EDT

Kenneth Sterns (Tucson, Arizona US) Age: 18 - Email

Dear fellow craftworkers,

Normally I am a nonviolent person. I try to channel my anger through meditation (or a long stream of cuss words). I tried to stay numb to the whole experience, to what was happening. It didn't really hit me until it was the middle of the night and I was watching msnbc. The senate/congress was singing America The Beautiful, and powerful imagery of the plane crash and wounded people disturbed me. I then finally started crying when I saw the long list of names of the people that were confirmed dead, scrolling by on the screen. I was really feeling strangled, and kept asking myself "WHEN WILL THE LIST END?! STOP SHOWING SO MANY!"
My sadness turned to anger by next morning, and I can't stop thinking about how much I want to see Terrorist/(Afghani too?) blood spilled on the ground. I still keep asking myself though if I should feel guilty for having these impulses, if im abandoning what I believe in if I want to see another country annihilated. Is it okay to think this way?

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