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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,400,691  

Vox Q Stats

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Reponses: 969

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Question of the Week: 59 - 9/11/2001

911 America: Talking Through The Terror...

Talking Through The Terror... And helping each other cope with the tragedies that struck at the very heart of the United States. The Witches Voice has opened up this forum in order that Pagans may express their thoughts on the terrorist attacks that took place in NYC and DC on September 11th. As the full realization of what happened and the toll numbers begin to come in, Americans have many challenges ahead.

What are your thoughts on these incidents? How are you feeling? Feel free to post any magickal workings or other support gatherings planned in your area.

WebNote 9/16/2001: Since we launched this on 911 this forum as become laced with powerful inspiration and critical information, feel free to use the search functions on your left to better define the info you are looking for. Search for your area, famous Pagans, key words etc. Also check Wren's Nest News for the latest news related to our community.

 Reponses:   There are 969 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

All The Wiccans In This Country And Around The World Should Start... Sep 14th. at 8:22:20 pm EDT

monty joslyn (ionia, Michigan US) Age: 53 - Email

All the wiccans in this country and around the world should start doing banishing spells on bin laden and all his buddies until theyre no problem It worked in ww2 against hitler

I Think That Through All The Planning These Terrorists Did They Forgot... Sep 14th. at 8:20:58 pm EDT

Sarah (Brooklyn, New York US) Age: 20 - Email

I think that through all the planning these terrorists did they forgot that our first name is united and when pushed we will show them we are not going to let them knock us down. I hope that everyone finds their loved one even if they are dead at least their bodies so they can give them a proper funeral. My love and sympathy to all the families who lost someone in these attacks.

The Phone Rang, Jerking Me Out Of Sleep. I Look At The... Sep 14th. at 7:59:57 pm EDT

Michelle (Mesquite, Texas US) Age: 28 - Email

The phone rang, jerking me out of sleep. I look at the clock first, and note that it's 9:04 AM. Who is calling me so damned early?

"Hello" I say, expecting a telemarketer.
Instead, I hear my best friend Mary's voice. "Are you watching the news?" she asked. "No" I replied, wondering if she was nuts- A) I never watch the news, and B) I rarely get up before 10:00, so why would I be watching it at 9?

"You should be" she said, and her voice was shaking.

The rest of the day passed in a state of numbed shock. I didn't cry, I didn't panic, I didn't react. I just sat, glued to the TV, for hours. At some point I brought two of my kids into the living room (they were home sick that day, as was I) and put them in front of the TV, saying "You need to see this, it's important". I watched my daughter, who is 12, reel from the images in front of us- stunned that this was happening. Still, I didn't react.

Around 7:00pm, my own reality shifted. The kids were with their father at his place, there was nothing else I needed to do at the time, so naturally I turned the set back on. After endless hours of seeing the same footage of the towers' collapses, I was now seeing something different. They were showing footage from *other* countries from around the world, who had also been airing it all day- they were showing the leaders of those countries offering their condolances to the President, and the American people.

I broke.

That shell was shattered, the numbness was gone, and all of it hit me at once.
Right then my coven brother called me, to tell me that we were going to be doing a healing ritual (in our own homes) in 15 minutes. He asked me what was wrong. I told him that the events of the day were just catching up to me, that I was just now reacting. I then began to get myself under control. Until he said "Today's the first day of World War III you know".

And I haven't been able to stop crying since.

I cry for all those who died in the planes and buildings, for all the loved ones they left behind, and for all who *will* die as a result of this brutal act.

And I, who haven't watched the news in 10 years, now watch it on 4 different channels almost 24 hours a day- and I'm taping much of it as well. I once considered myself just about the most un-patriotic person in the US, and now I'm out shopping for flags.

September 11th changed more than our landscape and population. It changed our hearts, and reminded us of our humanity. UNITED WE STAND.

The Tragity That I Saw Is Unsettling. I Am Bushido; A Warrior... Sep 14th. at 7:46:03 pm EDT

NeoBushido (Hector D.) (Weslaco, Texas US) Age: 35 - Email

The tragity that I saw is unsettling. I am Bushido; a warrior in my heart and my soul. With that title comes a code of conduct that Samuri have to abide by. I cannot strike in anger for it would poison my soul. The time to strike will come soon. With a peaceful heart, calm mind, and with honor. If these animals wanted a fight they got one. I have no blessings for these people. These people(the ones that blindly follow that fool Bin Laden and others like him) have put the ones that follow a peaceful life with all of us here in America in danger. My hopes, best wishes, and brightest blessings for all the victims, their families, and to all of you reading this message for are also victims

This Has Been A Week Of Shock, Pain, Sorrow, Anger, And Confusion... Sep 14th. at 7:29:07 pm EDT

Rhiannon (watchfire coven) (Portland, Oregon US) Age: 35 - Email

This has been a week of shock, pain, sorrow, anger, and confusion. I suppose I am one of the pacifist fluff bunnies that have been reviled by some of the postings here. In a way, these words of anger and disgust directed at fellow pagans are more hurtful than the actions of the extremist terrorists that attacked out nation. Now is not the time to attack each other, now is not the time to jump on the nearest soap box and spout rhetoric. Now is a time to mourn, to help, to think. to reach beyond differences and listen. The terrorists that attacked our nation took lives, they took buildings, they took security - we can not let them take our civility. If we react barbarically, we are as hateful and as hurtful and as evil as they are. I do think that they must be found, they must be punished. I do not think that justice will be accomplished if we do this by being ruled emotionally. We must maintain our civility, and seek out justice. We must at the same time look critically at what message we are sending to the world that allows individuals to cheer when Americans die. We must at the very least seek to understand each other and our differences and not toss hatered and accusations at one another.

Some time in the next month I will be bringing a child into this world (he is actually due on Samhain) - it is not the same world that I thought would be meeting my son. But I hope and pray that it is not a world where fellow pagans lash out at each other because of the hurt and pain that we are now experiencing. I hope that he grows in the community that has openly accepted so many despite differences in beliefs and lifestyles. I hope that he will learn to treat others with respect and kindness even if he disagrees with their opinions. As this new life stirs (and kicks and wiggles and pushes) in my womb I look to the future with an odd combination of hope and fear - I can only pray and work to make the hope outweigh the fear.

In This Time Of Turmoil, I'm Trying To Keep In Mind That... Sep 14th. at 7:12:40 pm EDT

Embla (Pipe Creek, Texas US) Age: 45 - Email

In this time of turmoil, I'm trying to keep in mind that the perpetrators of these attrocities have acted out of envy. Although I haven't the discipline to forgive the deeds, I've discovered that I do have it in my heart to forgive them their envy. This may not be a terribly popular viewpoint, but it's helping me to cope with the grief that I feel coming from around the world and pouring out of myself.

Pure Evil. How Can I Not Wish Harm On Someone Who Has... Sep 14th. at 7:07:08 pm EDT

Aleicia Boomer (Gautier, Mississippi US) Age: 24 - Email

Pure evil. How can I not wish harm on someone who has done so much evil?

It Is Sad What Happened; We Did A Healing Ceremony For Those... Sep 14th. at 6:37:03 pm EDT

Samantha (Bellingham, WA, Washington US) Age: 31

It is sad what happened; we did a healing ceremony for those who may need the energy. What I want to know is why, when hundreds of homeless people die every month from freezing and starvation, or hundreds of people are killed by drunk drivers, why does George Bush not schedual a national holiday? Why does it not make the front page of the paper.
America has bombed the middle east several times leaving them without food, schools or hospitals, not to mention the thousands of civilians and children that were killed. Maybe America should look at themselves instead of the enemy.

Dearest Brothers And Sisters In The Craft,today Is A Day Of... Sep 14th. at 6:26:57 pm EDT

Ariel (Tustin, California US) Age: 37 - Email

Dearest Brothers and Sisters in the Craft,

Today is a day of prayer by all faiths. The Craft exists as smaller units and solitary individuals united as a diverse whole. Please be in contact with your fellow friends, students and leaders today whether in person, by phone, or by email to lend a few moments of silence and prayer which will invoke the light and encourage the healing process to move through our country and our planet. Prayer is our greatest power.

Dear Father and Mother,

We recognize that you are the Creator of all that lives; out of your love we receive life. We call upon that love in this moment. We understand that you alone have the power to lift us out of this our darkness. We now relinquish all of our thoughts, desires, fears, anger, expectaions, hopes, despair, terror and sorrow to you. We ask that you now take over completely. We ask that the way be made clear to us. We realize that each of us can be used as a potent force for healing and peace now, and we are willing to do your bidding. We understand that the power that created flowers, babies, trees, mountains, air, fire, oceans and all that is miraculous in this universe is the very same power that will heal us miraculously in this moment, if we but allow it. We step aside, and let your power rush through us, and we will follow your lead. Please let our way be shown to us now. We ask for miracles in this moment. We loosen from our minds all hardened thinking which steals our faith in miracles. We ask that our magic be used by you as we light our candles today, and that you take our magic and transform it into that which is miraculous and beyond all our understanding of what is possible. We are open and receptive to that which is love and goodness; we are open and receptive to radical healing and transformation today.

Thank you very much.

Together we say blessed be.


What An Amazing Sight! I Kept Expecting To See Godzilla Come Tramping... Sep 14th. at 6:08:16 pm EDT

Tish Haymer (Tucson, Arizona US) Age: 43 - Email

What an amazing sight! I kept expecting to see Godzilla come tramping through the smoke & fire- except that this was REAL, & horrific. And sadly, I'm not entirely surprised that it happened, due to our being so nonchalant in assuming that it "could never happen here". I'm split between hoping that we'll learn from this & not let our hurt & anger lead us to do the same thing in retaliation, claiming that "this is DIFFERENT, because THEY (whomever "they" are) deserve it!", & knowing that human nature may well cause us to do just that. I'm planning on doing a ritual this weekend with my lover to mourn this tragedy, send healing to all of us planet-wide (including whomever did it, as they truly don't know what they're doing), & believe it or not, thank the gods for the opportunity to somehow pull some good from this. (On a personal level, any anger I had towards anyone before I heard about it Tuesday morning has completely disappeared- funny how one's priorities change during a crisis!) I'd also like to thank everyone worldwide who has been kind in sending prayers, energy, healing words, etc. to us & our country. May we all grow wiser & closer as a result.

I Already Posted, But I Just Wanted To Add Something. I Am... Sep 14th. at 6:03:07 pm EDT

karrie9 (Kenosha, Wisconsin US) Age: 40

I already posted, but I just wanted to add something. I am sad to hear of Jerry Falwell's blaming and accusations that could contribute to hate crimes, and which could to divide us as we try to unite. His words would contribute to perpetuation of the hate bomb's ripping our country apart.

Gays, Pagans, and other groups did not create the terrorists or cause them to do what they did.

Blaming, shaming, rationalization and denial are all part of "errors in thinking" and lead to very negative, destructive, deviding, resource-theiving ramifications that can ripple through out the nations and the centuries.

How much do you wanna bet, with Jerry Falwell's political connections, that he was told to retract what he said -- from a very high source.

He means to wound, devide, and stir up blame and hate shenanigans.

CNN covered Falwell's Folley, as I call it.

Errors in Thinking: (it's in there, do a word search)

"Glossary of Errors in Thinking" (from a 1960's guide "The Plain Rhetoric"). It lists:

- Fact and opinion

- Hasty generalization -- true for a part ! => true for the whole

- Post hoc reasoning -- preceeding != causes

- False analogy

- Fallacies of composition and division -- specific != general, general
!= specific.

- Fallacy of simple extremes (false dilemma)

- Faulty classification -- non-exaustive, non-exclusive categories

- Vagueness

- Over-precision

- Misusing authority -- expertise in A ! => expertise in B

- The "bandwagon" fallacy -- "can 1.1 billion Chinese be wrong?"

- Ad populum appeals -- "If this bill becomes law, radicals

and long-haried professors will be telling us how to run

our business"

- Ad hominem attacks -- "Only a subversive would ask such a


- Non sequitur

- Begging the question

What about the "errors" (logical or
procedural) of:

- Insistance on being wrong -- in the face of overwhelming evidence, a
debator claims censorship, conspiracy, weak-mindedness, whatever, of his
adversaries, or just plain insists on falsehoods.

- Avalanch tactics/equal time -- in moderated debate, each side has a
fixed time to argue a point. In an unmoderated newsgroup or forum, a
small number of people can post an inordiante number of messages,
effectively flooding the discussion. The opposition's thunder is stolen
by virtue that *some* participants will respond to *most* of the
replies, extending the avalanch.

- Ignoring substance -- exacerbates the above in that the noxious party
will often ignore replies of substance, instead....

- Rising to provocation -- answering posts of a provocative, insulting,
or slandering nature.

- Arguing opinions or values -- I don't think it's possible to debate
fundamental beliefs (call that a fundamental belief). If I think racism
is good or alchohol is evil, you're not likely to change my mind. If
the topic is "racism causes social strife" or "alchohol is a net social
and medical good", then some measure of costs and/or benefits may be
mustered. I'll generally drop an argument when one side or the other
has argued a circle and restates a prior argument.

- Unsubstatiated argument -- might fall under arguing opinion. Failing
to substantiate a claim with evidence, cites, etc. If I'm asked for a
patent number, I'll try to dig it up.

- Repeated assertion -- this shares ground with arguing opinions,
unsubstatiation, and avalanch, but if the opposing side insists on
simply restating a question or assertion, the argument tends to fall.

Having The Internet Really Brings Home How Terrible A Tragedy This Is... Sep 14th. at 5:58:05 pm EDT

Sabrina (galway, Ireland) Age: 15 - Email

Having the internet really brings home how terrible a tragedy this is,
You know, you've got people on messenger, and sending emails, all looking for
some lost relative or friend and it's scary.

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