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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 6,043,397  

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Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 122

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Question of the Week: 3 - 8/20/2000

Church and State, Religion in School... What is YOUR View?

Church and State, Religion in School... What is YOUR View?

 Reponses:   There are 122 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Lets Start With The First Part Of The Question And Work Our... Aug 25th. at 3:13:26 pm UTC

Jesse D Sadowski (Jacksonville, North Carolina US) Age: 24 - Email


Lets start with the first part of the question and work our way from there.

(church and state) By keeping the church and state seperate the religious rights of every american is assured, as long as they follow federal regulations a.e the contitution/bill of rights/amendments. The problem with a unified church/state is that now a wall is placed between the people and their federal rights. State laws would begin to reflect a church attitude. For example, as far as I am aware there is no law saying a person/persons cannot hold a ritual on state land as long as the land is not damaged. But if the state and the church were one then state land would in effect belong to the church thus under their athority. You can imagine what would happen to anyone caught holding a wiccan ritual there. My second example has already happened; North Carolina is a part of the Bible Belt, a large area considered the most religious in the country. Under state law no person may purchase alcohol before 12:00pm on Sundays because it is considered a holy day. A holy day for whom might I ask, you don't need to answer that.

(religion in school) When I first heard the proposal the place the Ten Commandments in public schools I just shook my head and said "here we go again".

It has been common knowledge for some time now that there is no room for religion in school. I wish this rule applied to all schools not just public but one cannot have everything. Putting the commandments in a public school is a good idea from a moral point of view as long as the commandments posted reflect only morals not religious guidlines, so remove that "no other god before me" for a start. After that how about adding a few more like "thou shall not commit rape, abuse, fraud, larceny, oppress and most importantly thou shall not condemn those different from yourself" Isn't it funny that the church is guilty of all of these or has been at one point in time. As for allowing religious practice in school there is one small problem that seems to jump out at me. A vast majority of X-tians are already dead set against Witchcraft and of course they get this attitude from teachings at home and/or church. Imagine what would happen if they also recieved the same teachings at school, just how much worse do you think it would get?

Shade and Sweet Water


I Personally Believe There Should Be No Debate. The Constitution Is Crystal... Aug 25th. at 12:11:46 pm UTC

Adam Butler (Jacksonville, Florida US) Age: 24 - Email


I personally believe there should be no debate. The constitution is crystal clear, separation of church and state. There is no room for interpretation in these words no matter how much certain politicians try. Since public schools are funded with government money, your and my tax dollars, they should be neutral on the subject of religion. You also have to ask yourself, where does it end? What next, the Bible as a textbook? This is totally unacceptable. Proper education about different religions is alright as long as no religion is advocated. Children should be educated about Muslims, Hindus Wiccans, and Christians as long as the information is factual and/or historical. Prayer in school is totally out of the question. Which prayer, Jewish, Muslim, or what? Our money funds these institutions too, and we have a right to protest this legislation.


To Begin With, A School Posting The Ten Commandments Is Odious At... Aug 25th. at 11:50:40 am UTC

Phil Hoffman (Traverse City, Michigan US) Age: 40 - Email


To begin with, a school posting the ten commandments is odious at best.

I have a "Darwin Fish" on my car in response to the "other" fish we see so often. And, I have a saying: "Don't try to shove your fish down my throat and I won't try to shove my fish down your throat."

No, students cannot leave their religion at the door, but by the same token, they must refrain from proselytizing. That means Christians, Jews, followers of Islam and Budda, as well as Wiccans.

I wish that a "Survey of World Religions" class was mandatory for all people. It could go a long way toward promoting peace and understanding throughout the world.


Organized Prayer At The Begining Of The Day Is Wrong. It Never... Aug 25th. at 11:33:39 am UTC

Chad M. Snyder (Reading, Pennsylvania US) Age: 22 - Email


Organized prayer at the begining of the day is wrong. It never was nondemoninational and was geared to a certain belief system. If students wish to organize prayer groups that is ok. As long as they allow other religions to do the same. What is fair to one is fair for the other.


At My School, We Have A Class Called Biblical Literature Which Teaches... Aug 25th. at 10:01:14 am UTC

Ashley Wagner (Carmel, Indiana US) Age: 17 - Email


at my school, we have a class called Biblical Literature which teaches the literature of the Bible, but does not preach the religion of it. I think maybe if they offer this class, they should offer other classes about different religions as well, such as Wiccan, Buddist, or Muslim religions. Public school is for everyone, that's why it's called public. if they make us take off our pentacles, then they must make a christian take off their cross. i've seen more gangs use a decorated cross more than i have seen them use a pentical. if you put prayer back into public schools, which prayer would you use? you can't write a prayer that is general enough for everyone, no matter how hard you try. the people writing it will have been of a christian background and will still put things in the prayer that are christian in origin, no matter how hard they try. they may do it subconsciously and not even think about it becasue that was the way they were raised, so it seems normal to them. students are going to carry their religion to school with them, no matter what you try to do about it. Teach tolerance and understanding and you will teach them love.


There Is Certainly No Lack Of Churches,synogogues(sp?),or Even Religous... Aug 25th. at 5:11:37 am UTC

Arinna (Moyock, North Carolina US) Age: 32 - Email


There is certainly no lack of churches, synogogues(sp?), or even religous broadcasts on Sunday morning to spread the message of the Ten Commandments. In fact, I would like to know why no one in the course of this debate has bothered to ask if American children are even unaware of what the Ten Commandments are.

My daughter knows them even though she is not a Christian and I would hazard a guess that most of her classmates are familiar with them as well. It kind of makes you wonder what the real purpose of the push to put the ten commandments on the walls of our schools is. Supposedly it is to combat the "moral decay" of our teenagers but if that were really so, wouldn't you first have a responsiblity to prove that:

1. The majority of kids are not aware of the Ten Commandments;

2. Their unawareness is the sole cause of their misbehavior (i.e. they had no other way to know that the mass murder of classmates was wrong and only killed because they hadn't read the Ten Commandments); 3. There is no other way to make them aware of the Ten Commandments than to display them in schools, churches simply can't be bothered to do it;

3. There is no other way to teach kids not to steal, lie, murder, etc. without including the Biblical Ten Commandments (you couldn't for instance just tell them why these things are considered wrong by every major civilization on earth) And what about the no-no's that the Ten Commandments are missing like: Thou shalt not commit rape or Though shalt not beat thy spouse or children (among others).

It is clear to me that the real purpose is to get that first commandment across to all of the non-judeo-christian children-- "Though shall have no other gods before me". And clearly the only thing that commandment could teach our children is that our schools and our government only approves of the judeo-christian God and that all that other crap the history teacher said about freedom of religion is only hypocrisy and shouldn't be taken too seriously.


I Don't Know If What Follows Is Necessarily A Unique Perspective, But... Aug 25th. at 3:18:52 am UTC

Michael Burger (Denver, Colorado US) Age: 23 - Email


I don't know if what follows is necessarily a unique perspective, but here goes:

Just yesterday, I began my three year graduate program at the University of Colorado at Denver. My intended field of specialty? Public School Counseling (insert "oh, man!", "wow", "jeez" etc. at your discretion). I have followed the developments surrounding the hot topic of education of late, and I have wondered just how long I will have a job when I graduate. At this point in my life, I do not endorse any particular religious system in favor of another, essentially making me a "cafeteria spiritualist", I suppose. However, I understand that, just as a metropolis like Denver and a farming town like Farnsworth, Texas have several roads that will take you there, so too are there many roads to take you to the Source, whatever you hold that to be. Therefore, I seem to have found myself in a kind of defender role for the minority and less-than-popular viewpoints of spirituality.

My point is this: If I were expected to take a side on this issue, I would have to go with accommodation. It's the least palatable of them all. Why? Because for every credo, motto, rule, rede, and commandment a school endorses (by hanging on a wall), the school must also accommodate all other said beliefs represented by the students. Given that enrollment figures are climbing with each incoming class, it would seem that such attempts would eventually prove to be impractical. However, without such accommodation, a public school would have to become just that: a public school, devoid of any religious affiliation or endorsement, which private schools can avoid.

Why is this? Well, for every block of time set aside for prayer, the Administrators That Be have to take into consideration the requirements imposed on the faithful. Christians can pray silently or aloud, as their religion allows. Muslims, however, are required to face the Kaaba (east, for North America) and bow and prostrate themselves in a space set aside by a curtain or screen or some sort of boundary. Buddhists have their beads and chants, and, well, honestly, I'm not sure there's a general, standardized way Witches pray. Nevertheless, the point is that, in a short span of time, the school day is eaten up by prayer time. At least, time set aside after the first bell.

When I went to high school five years ago in Oklahoma City, the students could do as they liked BEFORE classes started. Any gathering with even the remotest connotation of religious worship (read: Christian student groups) was never officially endorsed, yet no other gathering was given air time on the PA system (like See You At The Pole). After the announcements, we had a "moment of silence", lasting about thirty seconds or so. That was probably the closest we got to prayer in school.

A long time ago (man, I can get wordy sometimes!), I had mentioned that I have been concerned about how long I will have a job. Why, you may ask? Because I see my office in my mind's eye. I see a crucifix perhaps, and a pertinent, inspirational verse taken from Mark, Matthew, Luke, maybe Thomas. I see a six-pointed star, with an appropriate scriptural quote from the Torah or the Talmud (in Hebrew and English). I see a crescent and a star, with a surah from the Qur'an (in Arabic and English, of course). I see a nine-pointed star, with a quote from the Baha'i Faith's Kitab-i-Aqdas. (Persian and English). Perhaps an "authentic" Indian dreamcatcher or rattle, with some words of wisdom from Chief Joseph. (I don't know if I could find it in Nez Perce). But then, the kicker, the source of consternation for my superiors, the "Well-I'm-all-for-eclectic-interests-but..." ringed five-pointed star (one point up, of course). Despite the display of the rede along with it, I will be the maverick, I fear, to the administration. The loose cannon, the One To Be Watched. And likely as not, I'll give them reason to think so. Because I'll be called a lot of things because of how I choose to decorate my office, but I'll be damned before I'm called an enemy of the students. The administration is going to dislike me if they think I'll roll over and let any religion take a place of prominence, to the detriment of others, in a public school setting. In this case, I'm afraid, I'm very all-or-nothing. You either share, or go without. Mom taught me that.

And if they fight me on this, I'll push for unisex bathrooms. THEN they'll back down. :)

Be good, be real, behave,

Michael


Personally I Don't Think A Public School Is A Place To Teach... Aug 25th. at 1:16:43 am UTC

Aine Nic Laisre (Coon Rapids, Minnesota US) Age: 27 - Email


Personally I don't think a public school is a place to teach a child religion. They have troubles preparing a child for college life and if we left our spiritual wellbeing to them, I am sure they would mess that up too. It is my job to teach my child about spirituality.

I have no problems with the schools posting a moral code or something of the like as long as it is not quoted from a religion. If they are going to post the ten commandments, they should post every other religions teachings up also. But to post something on the wall such as "Respect others if you wish to be respected" or something to that extent or start teaching children in elementary that they should do a good deed a day...I would wholeheartedly support that as it would back up any religious teachings that my child is getting at home, without saying that one religion is more important than another.


When I Was In The Sixth Grade In Public School In California... Aug 25th. at 12:19:01 am UTC

evergreen (Baltimore, Maryland US) Age: 59


When I was in the sixth grade in public school in California we had a neat setup where kids were excused from class for an hour each Tuesday for "religion class" which was voluntary and all the major religions had some nice little old lady who fed us cookies or took us out for ice cream sundaes and then (I of course became an instant Catholic at the thought of getting out of class for an hour) took us to the church which smelled great with exotic incenses and holy water and free Holy Cards each week. I loved it. But the point is that all of us kids had a choice (with the note from our parents of course) and nothing was forced. I think it is a good idea myself and would like to see Pagan ideas put forward in such a pleasant atmosphere.


Religion Should Be Forbidden In Schools. Here In Central Pa A Group... Aug 24th. at 7:43:48 pm UTC

Andrea McCormick (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania US) Age: 34 - Email


Religion should be forbidden in schools. Here in Central PA a group of Christians tried to have their teens allowed to evangelize in public high schools. School should be a place of learning. It is a restricted environment in which students can't just leave without being punished. If the students were allowed to evangelize, any student who was targeted could not do anything but asked to be left alone. Of course, since Christians are "good" and anyone who doesn't want to be one is "bad" in the minds of most, this would make that student who didn't want to hear the Christians "bad". It devolves quickly into an us and them mentality. There are enough divisive things that teens have to deal with in high school, religion shouldn't be one of the. Most teens don't even really know what they believe, it is easy to preach Christian beliefs to be with the "good" crowd. If it were possible to teach a class in high school honestly detailing all religions so that teen could make an informed decision, that 'd be great but we all know just how far that would get.

Incidentally, as a matter of great personal joy, I wrote a letter like this to the editor of the local paper stating why I thought evangelical students was wrong and declaring myself as a pagan. After my letter was printed, I received a call from a elderly Jewish man who had been in the concentration camps. He wanted to thank me for pointing out the dangers of school/state approved religion and being willing to talk publicly about it.


Already Several Comments From Canada, But None From Quebec, Where The Situation... Aug 24th. at 7:00:37 pm UTC

Isabelle (Hull, Quebec CA) Age: 26


Already several comments from Canada, but none from Quebec, where the situation is a bit different. Until one or two years ago, all public schools where religious, belonging to the catholic school board or the protestant school board. Not long ago, it was changed to French school board and English school board. The change is only in the name though. The students (or rather their parents) still have to choose between sending them to "religion" class or "moral" class. Of course, religion means catholic in French and protestant in English. At least parents have the choice to send their kids to the "moral" course instead (and have had that choice for more than 20 years). And study of all major religions is mandatory for all students in the last year of high school. Wicca is not one of these major religions of course, but it's a start toward diversity.

It might get even better soon. Lots of people in the government are pushing to remove religion totally from school, or offer it as optional weekend courses. The very powerful "Commission des droits de la personne" has ruled that, if they dont do that, in order to legally keep religion in school, they have to offer courses in all the religions followed by their students. This is quite impossible with so many religions, especially in Montreal (you'd need 50 religion teachers in each school)

I think our situation is overall much better than in the rest of North America. The catholic church has lost almost all it's influence except with senior citizens. And, of course, being a minority themselves, the people of Quebec tend to be very willing to protect the rights of minorities.


Although I Have Watched My Children Be Teased About Their Beliefs, I... Aug 24th. at 6:49:31 pm UTC

Rianna Gwen (Sparks, Nevada US) Age: 28


Although I have watched my children be teased about their beliefs, I still think that it is important that they be able to express themselves at appropriate times through their homework, music, talking to people on their free time, and through art.

Religion is a part of who we are. It is something that rules the morals and values of many in their daily lives and assists children in developing their ideals and personal ethics in making decisions on things that effect them on a daily basis.

I will agree to have the 10 Commandments put up as long as the Wiccan Rede can be put up along side it. Now personally as things stand now it will be a cold day in Christian Hell before that happens. So therefore, I cannot agree that it would be "politically correct" to put one religions veiws as apposed to anothers in full view.

Another point I have is that it seems to me that it is a rediculous doctrine. Why would their divine tell them "Thou shalt not covet" then turn around and say, "There shall be no other Gods before me, for I am a jealous God". Um... well ... I guess it just proves the Pagan veiw that our Gods and Goddesses aren't perfect? (please don't throw anything at me on that one... its true i tell ya).

Anyhoo... that's my thoughts on this subject. If I continue I fear I will be rambling for a few days.

Blessed Be all~


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