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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 20,400,740  

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Question of the Week: 59 - 9/11/2001

911 America: Talking Through The Terror...

Talking Through The Terror... And helping each other cope with the tragedies that struck at the very heart of the United States. The Witches Voice has opened up this forum in order that Pagans may express their thoughts on the terrorist attacks that took place in NYC and DC on September 11th. As the full realization of what happened and the toll numbers begin to come in, Americans have many challenges ahead.

What are your thoughts on these incidents? How are you feeling? Feel free to post any magickal workings or other support gatherings planned in your area.

WebNote 9/16/2001: Since we launched this on 911 this forum as become laced with powerful inspiration and critical information, feel free to use the search functions on your left to better define the info you are looking for. Search for your area, famous Pagans, key words etc. Also check Wren's Nest News for the latest news related to our community.

 Reponses:   There are 969 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

First Of All, It Is Completely Ignorant To Concentrate Only On "how... Sep 14th. at 5:50:46 pm EDT

Superproblem (Atlanta, Georgia US) Age: 99 - Email

First of all, it is completely ignorant to concentrate only on "HOW" this tragedy happened and not "WHY" it happened. I'll tell you HOW it happened. With advanced technology. This is modern day war, and of course innocent people were slaughtered, because that's what happens in WAR. War is no longer one team on one side of the field coming at the other team on the other side of the field....all dressed up in coordinating colors to distinguish who is who. Didn't we learn anything from Viet-Nam? This reminds me a lot like the battle between SCIENCE and PHILOSOPHY. Scientists are always trying to figure out HOW we are here, and Philosophers are always trying to figure out WHY we are here. And, BOTH are equally important approaches.

Second of all, how do we as Americans know for sure that we didn't do something to piss off these people to the point where they feel the only way to fix the problem is by getting everyone's attention by causing a major tragic event? DO YOU ALL BELIEVE WHAT CNN AND THE REST OF THE MEDIA TELLS YOU????? Of course our American media is going to make America look as good as possible. Why would we watch anything on the news about us financing these terroists and bombing Iraq and other countries for several years. The point is, as Americans realizing that the Media is CENSORED, we must try to ask questions and take the TIME to dig DEEPER, instead of believing that every single thing you hear on the news is GOSPEL. I'm NOT saying that what these bastard highjakers did was fact, it was WRONG....WRONG as ever WRONG could be........all I'm saying is we need to find out if we did something WRONG to them first. AND this might not be easy.

AND LAST, but certainly not least......what is ROOT of the problem for the Middle East and in every other country around the world? ORGANIZED RELIGIONS.
This event SHOULD be a wakeup call (as if we haven't had many, many other events happen) that people can get so wrapped up in their religious beliefs, that they become fanatical, and are willing to KILL others and KILL themselves....all in the name of GOD. AND since I severely doubt the entire world will ever agree upon one set of beliefs about GOD, I suggest everybody join together to help eradicate, YES, GET RID OF.... organized religions and just call ourselves SPIRITUAL, instead of religious. We can all STILL have our little opinions about GOD, but to turn our opinions into BELIEFS and then turn our beliefs into a powerful money-making, law-infilitrating ORGANIZATION WRONG, VERY WRONG. GOD should not be a BUSINESS or a POLITICAL MOVEMENT.

THIS message was brought to you by the mind behind Freedom Through Fashion.

I Am Shocked And Appalled To See Pagans On This Forum Posting... Sep 14th. at 5:13:48 pm EDT

Pandora (Orlando, Florida US) Age: 16 - Email

I am shocked and appalled to see pagans on this forum posting about how we should forgive bin Laden and his lot. They seem to think that if we send them flowers, teddy bears, and chocolate kisses, all terrorists will rethink their vendetta against our country and become our best friends. All we need is love, right?


Do we not worship gods of war and vengeance? Do They not demand that we not allow evil to exist in our world? Do we not have a duty to protect our country and our brothers and sisters within it?

I am personally sick to death of hearing how the Threefold Law and the Rede oppose retribution. News flash: alot of pagans put no stock in those silly rules. I know I don't. But for those who do, think about this-if you allow evil to exist in your world and harm others, are you not just as bad as those who create that evil?

I have cursed these terrorists, and those who support them, with every curse I know. I have prayed to my matron Isis in Her Warrior Queen aspect to bring retribution to him in the only way you can bring retribution to terrorists-death. I have prayed to all of the Gods, all of my ancestors, all of my patron saints and the patron saints of America, begging each of them to fight for our land and everything we stand for. I do not mind admitting it: I have prayed for the blood of these evil people to be spilt, and soon.

How many more innocent people have do be murdered before the pacifists and the fluff bunnies will agree that, in this case, bloodshed is the only answer?

Creedism Đ A Crime Given A Name.for Centuries, It Was Acceptable To... Sep 14th. at 5:12:31 pm EDT

Harry Lerwill (Fresno, California US) Age: 35 - Email

Creedism Đ a crime given a name.

For centuries, it was acceptable to discriminate against people who came from a different background, a different tribe. People of color sold into slavery by rival tribes and then sold again on an auction block.

In the twentieth century that changed. We, as civilized people began to see that color, tribe and nationality, were not barriers to separate one from another, but diversity to be celebrated and learned from. We have not overcome racism completely, but have taken great strides towards this goal. As humans, we fail occasionally, but we walk together towards a world where all races stand together and stand as equals.

For centuries, it has been acceptable to discriminate against people who come from a different background, a different creed. People of belief slain by rival religions and their culture demonized to justify horrendous crimes.

In the twenty-first century, it is time for that to change. We, as civilized people need to see those religious beliefs, or the embracing of secular ideologies, are part of our rights as human beings. As humans, we need to walk together towards a world where different religious may not agree, but agree to allow each to live in peace.

Creedism Đ the discrimination against another based on their choice of religion, is at the heart of these tragedies. We have remained silent as one religion blames another for the conflict in their region. We have listened as fanatics preach that their religion is the only religion that is right and wage verbal and physical war on others.

It is not the religions of the world that are to blame. The founders of the religions that make the culture of the world so rich and diverse have one thing in common: the desire to make life better for all. They address the need a need for spiritual values; they give us a framework to ask metaphysical questions and to find such answers that edify our lives.

The blame lies in a few human hearts. The hearts of those who believe that to have a different religion is an insult, that to support diversity is to take away something of their beliefs. It lies in the heart of those that see religion as a tool of political and social control, using the human fear of death and apprehension of what lies beyond to manipulate individuals and cultures to nefarious ends.

The true Muslim does not fear western culture, Judaism or Christianity. A true Christian does not fear secularism as a threat to their way of life. Fear is the enemy. Fear that another is different, fear that another may be right and the individual be wrong. A person who is at ease with their creed own can walk with their head held up high, confident in their own Truth, they do not need the ÔotherŐ to embrace their beliefs to validate them.

It is time we made creedism unacceptable in society. We need to make the defaming of other religions and beliefs a hate crime, as equally unacceptable as defaming another race. It is an evil threatens to divide us during this new millennium.

It Is Important To Remember As We Consider A Response To This... Sep 14th. at 5:09:15 pm EDT

Sarah James (Minneapolis, Minnesota US) Age: 33

It is important to remember as we consider a response to this act that the United States commits acts of terrorism, supports extremists financially and with physical and training resources, and lets countless human rights violations occur with not a word.

If you are a citizen of the United States you participate in those activities. WE supported the Taliban, WE trained many of the terrorists who are now suspects in this deadly act. And I am shamed that I did not speak out more.

If we say that we are determined to end terrorism, we must begin with ourselves.

Respectfully, and with tears in her eyes,

For Witchkin In The Tallahassee, Fl Area:a Community Interfaith Forum Will... Sep 14th. at 5:03:33 pm EDT

Diana (Tallahassee, Florida US) Age: 34 - Email

For Witchkin in the Tallahassee, FL area:

A community interfaith forum will be held Thursday, September 20th (a
week from today) 7:30pm at First Presbyterian Church. This is in
response to vandal-like behavior on the part of unknown persons
toward one or both of the Islamic mosques in Tallahassee, and other,
recent events. The content of the forum's discussion will be left to
the participants, but can include prayer and any other appropriate

Also, First Church is making its sanctuary available during the day
for people who need a quiet place to pray, meditate, etc. Volunteers
will be available as well, if needed.

The First Presbyterian Church is located downtown, at the corner of
Adams and Park.

In Response: I Do Not Advocate "revenge". I Advocate Justice. If You... Sep 14th. at 5:00:11 pm EDT

Anne (st. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 40 - Email

In response: I do not advocate "revenge". I advocate justice. If you choose not to act or support those who do, then go as you must. And as I noted, the law of three comes back for inaction as well as action. I hope that you find your way as you see fit, and I pray that there will be no need to persue a military path.


How Dare We Not Stand Up To Oppose Evil In This World... Sep 14th. at 4:52:29 pm EDT

StarShadow (Greater Los Angeles Area, California US) Age: 38 - Email

>>>How dare we not stand up to oppose evil in this world? How dare we think that we are excused from standing between the innocent of all nations and the evil that would with a glad and cheerful smile blow them into tiny bits on their way to instant martyrdom, excused--- lest we inccur "some bad karma".>>>

It's a very simple concept. Either you believe in the law of three or you don't. If it's okay to exact revenge in this situation, that excuses me to hex my boss if she wrongs me, throw mud at my neighbors house because he scratched my car, etc, just all the little unfair, intential wrongs people lay on us every day.

In my tradition I was taught hexing people vengefully ( or that have wronged you as well) is very much not okay, because that will return to you. If you want blood, if you want revenge, okay. But be prepared to pay a high price.

Intead of exacting personal retribution on a day to day basis, I prefer to let the universe (Goddess, God) balance it. Sometimes, it takes a while. But guess what? It always balances. So, are we supposed to trust karma to only the small things in life and abandon our principles when we feel like it?

As a pacifist and Pagan, I cannot simply set aside my values when I or my country is hurt or angry. I have to walk this walk. I cannot embrace a teaching of blood for blood. The shedding of blood is wrong, period, and it will return to the shedder in time.

I'm Alive. Shaken, Dazed, Shocked...but Alive. These Last Couple Of Days... Sep 14th. at 4:50:31 pm EDT

Ariadne ni Cullaigh (New york, New York US) Age: 36

I'm Alive. Shaken, dazed, shocked...but alive. These last couple of days have been more than I have been able to handle and my boyfriend and I have both basically holed-up in the house, glued to the TV, emotionless and unwilling to face life at the moment. We are now both unemployed. Both of our companies are now under a pile of debris. He was in the thick of it and for 6 hours I had no idea if he was alive or not. I guess fate was on my side when I got let go from my job a few weeks ago. The building that I worked in no longer exists. Friends and coworkers are still missing. We can see the skyline from my house and every so often the both of us go out and just stare, unbelieving, at what we don't see. Places where we used to sit and chat when we first started dating are beneath the rubble. The restaurant where we had our first dinner together is gone. The fountain where we had our first kiss is now beneath tons of shrapnel....these are viable memories that I won't be able to share with our children. I've cried more these last few days then I have my whole life and now I'm just numb. I feel like a shell, and as much as I don't want it to be, the hatred is there, like a huge fiery chunk of bile in my throat. I have never been a hateful person and pride mysife as being a non-confrontational, passive Wiccan, but these people, in my eyes, won't suffer enough to make up for what we lost here. We could bomb them into oblivion and I wouldn't be satisfied. Death would be too merciful for them...and torture could never be cruel enough.

I'm not quite myself these days and literally don't know when I will be. I was always so fearless and happy-go-lucky, now I'm paranoid, I jump at loud noises and I'm suddenly afraid of the dark. This has changed us all forever.

Be safe and heartfelt blessings to all you know.

It Is A Sight To Behold,to See The Phoenix Rise And... Sep 14th. at 4:38:44 pm EDT

Andrea White Hawk (North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina US) Age: 36

It is a sight to behold, To see the phoenix rise and the story told from land to land and shore to shore, Silentous of the lambs are knocking , are knocking at your door)0(

Yes, We Need Support, Because Sometimes The Liberal Pagan Fluff Bunnies Forget... Sep 14th. at 4:35:35 pm EDT

Lysander True (San Diego, California US) Age: 27 - Email

Yes, we need support, because sometimes the Liberal Pagan Fluff Bunnies forget that we exist. We are a support group for the Conservative Pagans out there, we will listen to your complaints and your problems and we will help you with defending your beliefs against the Liberal Pagans. Come join so we can become a group of many defending each other and speaking out against unpatriotic, anti-Bush sentiment.

I Am Filled With Shock, Revulsion And Deep Anxiety Over The Events... Sep 14th. at 4:29:54 pm EDT

Bill Evanikoff (EarthTurtle) (Pleasanton, California US) Age: 46 - Email

I am filled with shock, revulsion and deep anxiety over the events of Black Tuesday. I want to strike out and punish... the desire for revenge is deeply embedded within all human beings.

Recently, a fellow employee who is a "visible muslim" in our UK offices asked our company president to send an email to our employees to understand that 99.99% of Muslims are scared. They are scared because they are experiencing verbal and physical assaults by others expressing their outrage at the horror that occurred only days ago. I can't share his original letter without his consent, but I wanted to share my response with my fellow pagans. It is a bit long, but I hope that some will find direction in it.

Dear Rah,

I sympathize wholeheartedly with you, your family and all of the true adherents to the Islamic faith. I am not a Muslim, but I know something of the teachings of your faith and it is a faith of love with fairness and respect for those who are not of the faith. These are not the values of the terrorists and I find it difficult to understand how they can even call themselves Islamic. But then I remember well that this is not the first time that religious faith has been appropriated as a justification by those who truly have no faith. Instead of trusting that salvation of mankind will be found in love, kindness and hopefulness, they trust not. Instead of believing that people are fundamentally good, and given a chance to do good or evil they will do good, they believe not. Instead of loving, helping and devoting themselves to a higher good which does not seek glory, riches, power or pride, they hate, destroy and devote themselves to the most vulgar and barbaric means of indulging in self-importance.

Our greatest risk is becoming just like them by labeling them as 'evil' and something not akin to ourselves. When I overhear a rascist remark, I try to explain to that person that their hate is made of the same cloth as the terrorists' hate. We must embrace the diversity and richness of our multicultural civilization or descend into the pit of unreasoning fear that the terrorists have claimed as their own. Charles Dickens wrote of our danger so poignantly:


They were a boy and a girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling, wolfish; but prostrate, too, in their humility. Where graceful youth should have filled their features out, and touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled hand, like that of age, had pinched, and twisted them, and pulled them into shreds. Where angels might have sat enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has monsters half so horrible and dread.

Scrooge started back, appalled. Having them shown to him in this way, he tried to say they were fine children, but the words choked themselves, rather than be parties to a lie of such enormous magnitude.

`Spirit. are they yours.' Scrooge could say no more.

`They are Man's, ' said the Spirit, looking down upon them. `And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it.' cried the Spirit, stretching out its hand towards the city. `Slander those who tell it ye. Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end.'

`Have they no refuge or resource.' cried Scrooge.

`Are there no prisons.' said the Spirit, turning on him for the last time with his own words. `Are there no workhouses.' ...


I beg you not to become embittered by the few who react with such irrational behavior. Instead, know that there are many more of us who welcome you warmly and with open hearts and open arms as brothers and sisters. I, and many others, try to do our part to stem the rise of hate and brutality. The good news is that there are many more of us who love, than they who hate.


Like So Many Others In The Pagan Community, I Oppose Hate As... Sep 14th. at 4:25:09 pm EDT

Anne (St. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 40 - Email

Like so many others in the Pagan community, I oppose hate as a response. We are a nation of diverse people and beliefs, all of whom deserve the same protections under the law.

I pray that vengence is not the guiding emotion for our people and our leaders. Nonetheless, I pray for justice for those who died in a cowardly terrorist attack.

Lily wrote in a letter to this site that "murder is always wrong". Yes, child --- *Murder* is always wrong. To strip thousands of their lives and livihoods by hijacking airliners and crashing them into office buildings is murder. To defend against that most certainly is not.

Yes, terrible things are going to happen. I devoutly wish that no harm would come to the innocent. However, its far too late. Harm has come already and those who died and those who will die if we do not now stand up against the pure evil that exists in the world will have lost their lives in vain if all we do is sit by idle while evil walks the world.

Those who speak of any action against terrorists and terrorist nations as "retaliation" and say that we cannot lift a finger to fight this evil lest we shed one drop of innocent blood should have to look the innocent victims of last Tuesday's atrocity in the eyes and explain to them why they feel that the right thing to do is to sit back and let it go, leaving our response at the level of letter of rebuke.

Shed along with the innocent blood of America in this mass murder is the blood of those in nations who suffer under the hate and bigotry of terrorist supporting regimes. Thousands have died in nations like Afganistan because they opposed the fundamentalist nature of these regimes and the terrorists that they harbour. They have no compunction about killing anyone who opposes them. Reason and diplomacy are hardly likely to change them. Even so, if they will hand over those responsible, then justice will be served and that is what we must seek, not vengence.

Should we have abandoned the millions of Jews, Gypsies, and gays that Hilter's regime of horror slaughtered to their fate, complacently telling ourselves that we had no right to risk making a mistake, innocents might be harmed and so we dare not try that path lest what we do come back on us three fold? "All that is necessary for evil to win is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke. If nothing is what you wish to do, then do nothing and accept that that too is a choice of consequence, not only for your own karma, but for those that you abandon to the actions and power of evil. Those who sit with folded hands and let this pass, that too shall be visited three times over.

How many of those who pull back in horror at the notion of striking at these regimes are able to find the anger and will within themselves to hate or oppose those who keep women virtual prisoners in their own homes, refuse them the right to walk under the Goddess's sun without a Chador swathing them head to toe, who keep them from schooling and work just because they are women? Should regimes such as the Taliban be tolerated in a just and ethical world? How much more should we strive against a regime that harbors mass murderers who would gladly burn us all for the witches that we are. And how much more than that should we oppose with necessary force those who are willing to murder and harbor murderers?

The attitude that we cannot act in response to this is foolish and selfish. How dare we not stand up to oppose evil in this world? How dare we think that we are excused from standing between the innocent of all nations and the evil that would with a glad and cheerful smile blow them into tiny bits on their way to instant martyrdom, excused--- lest we inccur "some bad karma".

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