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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]



















 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 6,384,089  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 129

Lurker/Post Ratio: 254 to 1

Question of the Week: 12 - 10/23/2000

Pagan Choice for the y2k US Election

This week's Pagan Perspective question is a redux of one that we asked about at the beginning of August... And we apologize in advance to our non-United States readers that we have again brought up an issue that is rather exclusive to just one country, but feel free to comment on the shenanigans of the American political system as you see it.) Which political platform or candidate are you leaning towards? Have you made up your mind or changed your mind? Will you vote and who-if you don't mind telling the world-are you planning to vote for? Why have you made this particular choice?

 Reponses:   There are 129 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


Thank You, Nelli From Carmel, Ca. I Couldn't Agree More. I Want... Oct 25th. at 7:37:18 am UTC

Raven (Johannesburg, South Africa) Age: 52 - Email


Thank you, Nelli from Carmel, CA. I couldn't agree more. I want to reiterate for all of you who are "voting or {NOT} voting your conscience". A VOTE FOR NADER IS A VOTE FOR BUSH. NOT VOTING FOR GORE IS A VOTE FOR BUSH. Are you people prepared to live under the "far-right religious zealot conservatives " for the next four to eight years?

How many of you have 14-year-old sons? How many have sons who may be drafted by a war that the Bush/Cheney ticket will bring?

Go read history and check out just who the President was during the Gulf War (he didn't 'inherit' that war), and what role Mr. Cheney played in it!!!!!!
I like a lot of things the Libertarian Party says, but once again, these are CRITICAL TIMES, and a vote for a Libertarian candidate is a vote for Bush.

Nader has some good ideas BUT the man has stepped over into the realm of ALL CONSUMING HUBRIS!!! He has become consumed with himself, and I am really angry with him for putting this election into jeopardy and being a key element in a possible win for Bush. He will "hear" from me if Bush wins! Just by the very fact that he is willing to
ÔthrowÕ this election, he has lost all credibility for me.

A few weeks ago, another question was posited for us regarding the ethics of magick. I was really happy to see that because I am always curious to see how others view this conundrum. It is interesting to see how the range of answers varies as much as the ages of the participants answering the question. Often times we older Witches have lived long enough to see that what goes around truly does come around.

There have been times in the course of human events when Witches have come together to 'correct' or 'adjust' matters that have gone horribly awry. One such that comes quickly to my mind is when the Witches gathered to repel Hitler from crossing the English Channel. I, myself, felt that Newt Gringrich and Kenneth Starr needed to be 'dealt' with, and I felt justified in doing what needed to be done to keep them from harming others and my country. If Bush gets elected, I will not hesitate to do the same if I see he is going to try to send my son to war or abolish my right to worship as I please, or purports any other nefarious act. It isn't something I would like to do, but I will. BTW, you don't necessarily have to harm someone to get them out of the way or keep them from harming others. How many of you hasnÕt gotten someone 'promoted' just to get them away from you? Hmmm? The gods/goddesses give us life and it is up to us to preserve that life and defend it, period. If the Bush/Cheney ticket wins, Witches, Pagans, et al are going to have their 'cauldrons full' for the next 4-8 years.

Remember: NOT VOTING is a vote for Bush.
VOTING FOR NADER or anyone else is a vote for Bush.
Hope you can "live" with your conscience . . .What goes around, comes aroundÉ


When This Was First Posted Back In August, I Mentioned That I... Oct 25th. at 3:12:17 am UTC

Gwydion Canu Bleidd (Memphis, Tennessee US) Age: 32 - Email


When this was first posted back in August, I mentioned that I was thinking of casting a vote for Nader--Jesus God, what the hell was I thinking?? Since then, it has become abundantly clear to me (and hopefully, to any right-thinking American) that the only choice for President is the always-wooden Al Gore. If Bush gets elected, it'll be "Jesus Day" every day and we will see all sorts of social progress rolled back a full century or more in this country...and I will seriously have to consider moving to Ireland and starting a Pagan commune in Co. Galway. (Note to Bev Richardson, if he sees this: Think you might have room at Castle Pook for an American witch seeking asylum from this country's descent into political stupidity?)
Ralph Nader is not now, nor ever will be, the man for the job of leader of the free world...Pat Buchanan is a menace to sobriety (and his choice of Ezola Foster for VP no more than pandering to women and minorities)...and Bush almost makes Dan Quayle look smart, which is REALLY scary when you sit down and think about it. Seriously, folks: "Is our children learning?" and "It's hard...to put food on your family" among other gaffes... Do we really want this idiot running our country? I think we all know the answer.


I Debated For A Long Time Whether Or Not I Should Make... Oct 25th. at 12:57:37 am UTC

Nelli (Carmel Valley, California US) Age: 23 - Email


I debated for a long time whether or not I should make a second posting to this board this week - normally I feel that one posting is enough, and any more is just hogging space. But right now I feel desparate. I am *deeply* grateful to the number of people who have decided to vote for gore, or to vote against bush by marking the little white box next to gore's name. But nader is still poised to destroy any chance we might have of religious freedom, the right to choose, and some semblance of a healthy environment. there has been a lot of talk about a vote for nader being the only contientious way to vote. I have a *very* hard time reconciling my conscience with a man who is TOTALLY WILLING AND EVEN EAGER TO SACRIFICE THE ENVIRONMENT AND WOMENS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS just so that he can say, nyah, nyah, I messed you up, I get to be in the debates in 4 years. Yeah, if there's still a constitutional democracy in four years. If that thoroughly incompetent idiot bush, who will be so generously put on his throne with abundant help from those who vote for nader, doesn't manage to destroy everything that we've worked for domestically and internationally for the last 200-odd years. And then, in 4 years, nader can get up on stage just like perot did, and talk his small mind out, and MAYBE get 1% of the vote. Oh, goody. Maybe in a hundred years or so, nader will be president, and he can have the last laugh amongst the ruins of the environment that was ravaged long ago because SOMEONE had an ego too big to concede that maybe stealing gore's votes isn't the best way to acheive the noble goals of environmental protection, social justice, and corporate accountability. For the record, the people who worked with nader on his first projects (the original Nader's Raiders) are saying that he is making a HUGE mistake by taking gore's votes, and that he is screwing up in a major way. I've got news for you, folke - nader is a politician. He lies, he manipulates, and he says what he needs to say to reach his goal. He's just as sanctimonious (if not more so) as the other two, but he has absolutely no real political experience - he's been to busy making futile charges at the presidency for the last 12 years to focus on any smaller scale, like maybe assemblyman, or senator, or something. So I hope all of you who feel righteous and pure by voting for nader have a chance to visit alaska in a year or two, after it's been turned into a giant oil field; and, oh, you'd better go check out the grand canyon, and headwaters forest in humboldt co, and the everglades, becuase those will be liquidated along with the rest of our natural resources as soon as *your* vote puts bush in the president's chair. I hope you're all using REALLY good birth control, and that you never get raped by someone ungentlemanly enough to neglect using a condom, because legal abortion is on its way out. And I hope you're comfortable in small spaces, because we may all be back in the closet very soon.
Sleep well.
To recap:
1) Nader is not going to win this election - the odds are better that he'll win the lottery.
2) A vote for nader is a vote for bush, and if you vote for nader bush WILL win.
3) Nader is in no way pure, principled or genuine, any more than any of the other candidates.
4) And this is a VERY important point: there is more than one way to skin a ... politician. Giving nader 5% of a state's vote is not the only, or the best, way to change our government. ACT LOCALLY!!! Vote for greens on city councils, for assembly, for the senate, for the school board, for congress.
5) Another important point: if bush is elected, he will be appointing supreme court justices, and it is also very possible that he will have at least two years with a conservative House. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!!

Now it is time for me to beg. Please, please, please, vote for al gore. Am I afraid? No. I AM BLOODY TERRIFIED!!!!! I do not want to live, even for a while, in a world where GWB comes within 10 feet of the oval office. I am a woman, I am a witch, and I love my mother earth. Bush promises to take as many of my rights as he can. Nader promises to let him. Gore, on the other hand, hopes to preserve those rights. We are in the midst of a swing to the right, in social, religious and political terms. Sure, the world at large will survive that, but I might not, and I'd rather not try. If bush wins this race, the swing will pick up momentum. THere are only 2 candidates for this race. Nader=Bush, and I suppose Buchanan=Gore, although he's not giving anyone much to worry about. If we manage to hold on to sanity and put gore into the president's chair, *then* it will be time to plan and devise ways to change the system.
Or, call me a chicken shit. See you in alaska.


Even Thought I Am Canadian, I Am Very Frightened With The Situation... Oct 24th. at 11:23:15 pm UTC

Porphyry (Montreal, Quebec CA) Age: 25 - Email


Even thought I am Canadian, I am very frightened with the situation down there. The leader of the most powerful and influencial country in the world has the power to influence social and environmental policy all over the planet whether by direct veto or simply by example.

I am scared not by Bush's apparent lack of concern for the environment and religious freedom. I mean, he quite obviously will make sure that my religion is repressed as much as possible (because he, in all his theological wisdom, personally doesn't believe its a religion). And as for the latter, its not only YOUR problem, it's MY problem too when my forests and lakes get polluted by American factories and I have My Bush at the border demanding that I ship more natural resources down to make up for squandered water supplies and guzzled gas reserves.

I'm not 100% sure what Nader is all about, but he looks good. However, I *KNOW* what Bush is like and the *planet* simply cannot afford letting him into office.


Gore=pro-choice=my Vote!!!!!!!!!!!! This Is A Crucial Election For Women's Rights... Oct 24th. at 11:15:21 pm UTC

Heidi (Boston, Massachusetts US) Age: 30


GORE=PRO-CHOICE=MY VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a crucial election for women's rights. The next President will elect 3 new supreme justices...these people will ultimately decided to uphold a womans right to choose or not. Besides, Bush rarely even says the word "Women", when asked about a womans right to choose during the debates, Bush started to answer the question by saying, "PEOPLE who have abortions..." PEOPLE don't have abortions George - WOMEN do! Come on..you can say it George... W-O-M-E-N!!!!!!

Please women vote for a President who respects you enough to let you govern your own body!

GORE 2000


I Am A Registered Libertarian, And That Is The Only Political Party... Oct 24th. at 10:31:06 pm UTC

Jasper (Orono, Maine US) Age: 22 - Email


I am a registered libertarian, and that is the only political party that makes any sense to me. I have no faith in th the governemt, or our corrupted system, but I will do what I can to have my voice heard. I only wish that Harry Browne and the libertarian party got more attention. The primary focus of the libertarian platform is to decrease government (insted of increasing it as all of the other candidates wish to do) and expand personal freedoms. (www.Lp.org or www.harrybrowne.com have more info.) So, in good conscience, the only choice that I see, is to vote libertarian. When you vote, the idea is to vote for who you want, not to vote against someone you don't want. Again, I have no faith in our political system, but if there's a chance that I can make a difference (however slim) then I intend to take advantage of it.


I Personaly Am Leaning Toward The Green Party. Ralph Nader Has Always... Oct 24th. at 8:52:03 pm UTC

Trish Franklin (Largo, Florida US) Age: 27 - Email


I personaly am leaning toward the Green Party. Ralph Nader has always been on the "everyday citizen" side. This is an easy choice for me. I have no intrest yet in the social security issues nor am I a senior citizen. I am in that age range that the other two ding dongs are NOT talking to. I am a Pagen mother of two beautiful children and I will fight for my right and theirs to be who we are. My heratage is of Native American and Irish decent. I have no choice but to be who I am and I am very proud of it!! Bush must have an IQ of ..... nevermind I would never insult any of the goddess creatures in that maner... He has no clue what the word "witchcraft" even means, much less he has no reason to be opposed to it in the military or any where else for that matter. I am refering to the "web, white, and blue" question of the day. Freedom for ALL the faiths of the world not just a few. Gore and Bush are just to much. Both come from political familes and I would love someone in there that is not a carrer polition. Besides living in Florida I already have to deal with one Bush, I do not want to deal with two. I see a very blek furture if that man wins. I can see women being killed by back alley doctors and inocent people dying in a chair. I see Pagens hiding again. Sorry I will not let that happen if I can help it. Bush and Gore may be great family men and have beautiful marriages with well educated and balenced childern. Thats great! I am truly happy for them. But nither know what is best for me and my childern. They have NEVER steped in my shoes or walked a mile without a guard standing over them and never said an unprompted word. They are puppets that breath on there own. Personly that just scares me. Go to www.votenader.com and see for yourself.


Definitely Gore! I Live In Texas And Have Had To Put Up... Oct 24th. at 6:38:47 pm UTC

Michal (San Antonio, Texas US) Age: 22 - Email


Definitely Gore!
I live in Texas and have had to put up with Bush's crap for way too long. Unfortunately the majority of Texans are Republican, and I am Democrat.I am shocked to see that this is a close race. If you listen to Bush, what he says sounds good, just like it did when he was campaigning for Governor of Texas, but when you look at he has actually done, COME ON....!!!! Everything he has said he would do, he has turned it away from helping the majority, and only helping the few, richer, friends and buddies of his. His entire standing on the school system - Oh Please ... - Texas ranks as one of the lowest in this entire nation, hum I wonder why George? And yes I am tired of Christianity being crammed down our throats, because Paganism isn't a "real" religion. Such crap. They want freedom of their religion, but not of ours. It is extremely evedent when in the middle of Republican Texas. At least with Gore we have a chance.
If Bush gets into the White House, not just us, but all Americans will suffer.

Oh, and no I am not going to vote. I have never voted, and I will never vote as long as our government considers bullshit a method of conversation.
The US government is joke, in my mind. Our fore fathers had an entirely different idea in mind when they created this country. Since then I think we have turned it to shit, and the only way we will learn is the hard way.


A Reminder Of How The American Electoral System Works -- The Presidency Is... Oct 24th. at 6:12:36 pm UTC

Tony (Tampa, Florida US) Age: 28 - Email


A reminder of how the American electoral system works -- the presidency is not determined by the overall popular vote, but by the final vote of the electoral college. Each state gets as many electoral votes as it has members of Congress (House and Senate). The candidate who gets the majority of these votes is elected president. MSNBC has an online map indicating which way the states seem to be leaning. Of the 538 electoral votes (of which 270 make a majority), Bush has 209 and Gore has 175. The following states appear undecided: NH, PA, WV, FL, TN, MI, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, NM, WA, & OR.

While I have heard that federal funding is predicated on general election percentages, I would strongly recommend that third-party voters in these states assess whether they are undermining their preferred major-party candidate by voting for the third party candidate.

For example, if a state was in the balance and in the general election gets a final count of R-48%, D-47%, and Green-5%, the Republican candidate (Bush) would get the electoral votes. If even 40% of the Green voters (2% of the total vote) had voted for the Democratic candidate (Gore), the swing would have gone the other way. By voting Green, these voters have undermined their objective -- which is ostensibly a more environmentally friendly President.

Please keep your state's race in mind as you prepare to vote -- and check the opinion polls frequently between now and election date.


There Is A Lot Of Talk About "voting One's Conscience" For Nader... Oct 24th. at 5:57:32 pm UTC

Raven (Johannesburg, Saudi Arabia) Age: 52 - Email


There is a lot of talk about "voting one's conscience" for Nader. If you do this, and of course, it is your free will and right to do so, don't confuse it with 'goodness' and 'clean conscience'. Everyone is correct who has stated that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. Gee, maybe Nader and Bush are in cohoots? Who knows, really? It is obvious, however that ANY vote for Nader is one taken from Gore. Getting back to "doing the right thing for a clean conscience", just remember that perhaps those of you who are voting for Nader for this reason may not feel so well when the "jack-booted troops" are breaking up your 'circles' and preventing you from worshiping the way you would like. If Bush is elected, a hush will fall over American caused by the eradication of religious freedoms that will percolate from the Supreme Court down to the town hall politics, and of course, then transfer over to the secular. I don't believe one should be feeling to 'high and mighty' for voting for Nader when those votes were needed by Gore to prevent that rapscallion Bush from becoming President. Some of you have stated that if Bush gets elected you would want to move to another country. I can certainly commiserate with you. I am lucky. I have been living in South Africa for almost two years. It certainly has its problems, but if Bush gets elected, I told my husband that I don't want to go back to the USA until he is out of office. I'm serious! I think those chemtrails are making everyone loopy. Bush is so wrong for the Presidency that there shouldn't even be a contest. Having Bush for President is like having elected the Village Idiot to the Presidency. So all of you who are voting your conscience for Nader instead of Gore should ask yourselves if being governed by the Village Idiot is a good thing and are you proud of yourselves for helping to contribute to that idiocy?


I Am Glad Many See The Problems With Bush. I Just Wish... Oct 24th. at 5:32:44 pm UTC

greengoddess (Howell, Michigan US) Age: 18 - Email


I am glad many see the problems with Bush. I just wish some could understand the importance of keeping him out of office. For our reproductive rights and our religious freedoms. Many seem quick to vote for Nader because of his views, but fail to realize this, as bad as it sounds, Nader doesn't stand a chance in this election. Yes, a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, sorry but it is the truth. I must imagine that many Green Party supporters, will go home after they vote and "pray" Gore wins. I just wish more people would realize what's at stake. If Bush wins there will be problems.

Blessed Be


This Is Going To Be My First Presidential Electionand I Think The... Oct 24th. at 5:22:15 pm UTC

Amanda Hill (Allen, Texas US) Age: 19 - Email


This is going to be my first presidential electionand I think the obvious choice is Gore. In fact, I am terribly surprised that the race is so close! Okay, so Gore isn't perfect, and Nader would be better, but I don't think Gore is that bad a guy at all, and he's WAY better than Bush. Bush is inexperienced and just plain dumb. I'm a Texan, and he hasn't done anything good for Texas these last eight years. Have you seen the air over Texas lately? Awful! Air pollution warnings every day in August. If I stay outside too long it gets hard to breathe. Then there's that abortion thing. If Bush is elected, he has the opportunity to turn the Supreme Court around and make it pro-life, which means the right to choose will be in danger. Then there's his ties with the NRA, and that stupid thing he said about witchcraft not being a religion. I mean, I'm a democrat, but I've seen Republicans before that I've respected. I have NO respect for Bush.

And I am NOT choosing the lesser of two evils. I think Al Gore is a highly intelligent and decent human being and will make a fine president.

Too bad I live in Texas, which means my vote won't count. Ah well, at least my concience will be clear when I go vote for Al. I just can't bear the thought of ANOTHER four or eight years with George W.


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