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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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112. Elders: Who Are They and Do We Really Need Them? - [74]

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1. Who are you going to vote for and why? - [233]



















 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 4,696,312  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 129

Lurker/Post Ratio: 254 to 1

Question of the Week: 12 - 10/23/2000

Pagan Choice for the y2k US Election

This week's Pagan Perspective question is a redux of one that we asked about at the beginning of August... And we apologize in advance to our non-United States readers that we have again brought up an issue that is rather exclusive to just one country, but feel free to comment on the shenanigans of the American political system as you see it.) Which political platform or candidate are you leaning towards? Have you made up your mind or changed your mind? Will you vote and who-if you don't mind telling the world-are you planning to vote for? Why have you made this particular choice?

 Reponses:   There are 129 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


I Am A Registered Libertarian, And That Is The Only Political Party... Oct 24th. at 10:31:06 pm EDT

Jasper (Orono, Maine US) Age: 22 - Email


I am a registered libertarian, and that is the only political party that makes any sense to me. I have no faith in th the governemt, or our corrupted system, but I will do what I can to have my voice heard. I only wish that Harry Browne and the libertarian party got more attention. The primary focus of the libertarian platform is to decrease government (insted of increasing it as all of the other candidates wish to do) and expand personal freedoms. (www.Lp.org or www.harrybrowne.com have more info.) So, in good conscience, the only choice that I see, is to vote libertarian. When you vote, the idea is to vote for who you want, not to vote against someone you don't want. Again, I have no faith in our political system, but if there's a chance that I can make a difference (however slim) then I intend to take advantage of it.


I Personaly Am Leaning Toward The Green Party. Ralph Nader Has Always... Oct 24th. at 8:52:03 pm EDT

Trish Franklin (Largo, Florida US) Age: 27 - Email


I personaly am leaning toward the Green Party. Ralph Nader has always been on the "everyday citizen" side. This is an easy choice for me. I have no intrest yet in the social security issues nor am I a senior citizen. I am in that age range that the other two ding dongs are NOT talking to. I am a Pagen mother of two beautiful children and I will fight for my right and theirs to be who we are. My heratage is of Native American and Irish decent. I have no choice but to be who I am and I am very proud of it!! Bush must have an IQ of ..... nevermind I would never insult any of the goddess creatures in that maner... He has no clue what the word "witchcraft" even means, much less he has no reason to be opposed to it in the military or any where else for that matter. I am refering to the "web, white, and blue" question of the day. Freedom for ALL the faiths of the world not just a few. Gore and Bush are just to much. Both come from political familes and I would love someone in there that is not a carrer polition. Besides living in Florida I already have to deal with one Bush, I do not want to deal with two. I see a very blek furture if that man wins. I can see women being killed by back alley doctors and inocent people dying in a chair. I see Pagens hiding again. Sorry I will not let that happen if I can help it. Bush and Gore may be great family men and have beautiful marriages with well educated and balenced childern. Thats great! I am truly happy for them. But nither know what is best for me and my childern. They have NEVER steped in my shoes or walked a mile without a guard standing over them and never said an unprompted word. They are puppets that breath on there own. Personly that just scares me. Go to www.votenader.com and see for yourself.


Definitely Gore! I Live In Texas And Have Had To Put Up... Oct 24th. at 6:38:47 pm EDT

Michal (San Antonio, Texas US) Age: 22 - Email


Definitely Gore!
I live in Texas and have had to put up with Bush's crap for way too long. Unfortunately the majority of Texans are Republican, and I am Democrat.I am shocked to see that this is a close race. If you listen to Bush, what he says sounds good, just like it did when he was campaigning for Governor of Texas, but when you look at he has actually done, COME ON....!!!! Everything he has said he would do, he has turned it away from helping the majority, and only helping the few, richer, friends and buddies of his. His entire standing on the school system - Oh Please ... - Texas ranks as one of the lowest in this entire nation, hum I wonder why George? And yes I am tired of Christianity being crammed down our throats, because Paganism isn't a "real" religion. Such crap. They want freedom of their religion, but not of ours. It is extremely evedent when in the middle of Republican Texas. At least with Gore we have a chance.
If Bush gets into the White House, not just us, but all Americans will suffer.

Oh, and no I am not going to vote. I have never voted, and I will never vote as long as our government considers bullshit a method of conversation.
The US government is joke, in my mind. Our fore fathers had an entirely different idea in mind when they created this country. Since then I think we have turned it to shit, and the only way we will learn is the hard way.


A Reminder Of How The American Electoral System Works -- The Presidency Is... Oct 24th. at 6:12:36 pm EDT

Tony (Tampa, Florida US) Age: 28 - Email


A reminder of how the American electoral system works -- the presidency is not determined by the overall popular vote, but by the final vote of the electoral college. Each state gets as many electoral votes as it has members of Congress (House and Senate). The candidate who gets the majority of these votes is elected president. MSNBC has an online map indicating which way the states seem to be leaning. Of the 538 electoral votes (of which 270 make a majority), Bush has 209 and Gore has 175. The following states appear undecided: NH, PA, WV, FL, TN, MI, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, NM, WA, & OR.

While I have heard that federal funding is predicated on general election percentages, I would strongly recommend that third-party voters in these states assess whether they are undermining their preferred major-party candidate by voting for the third party candidate.

For example, if a state was in the balance and in the general election gets a final count of R-48%, D-47%, and Green-5%, the Republican candidate (Bush) would get the electoral votes. If even 40% of the Green voters (2% of the total vote) had voted for the Democratic candidate (Gore), the swing would have gone the other way. By voting Green, these voters have undermined their objective -- which is ostensibly a more environmentally friendly President.

Please keep your state's race in mind as you prepare to vote -- and check the opinion polls frequently between now and election date.


There Is A Lot Of Talk About "voting One's Conscience" For Nader... Oct 24th. at 5:57:32 pm EDT

Raven (Johannesburg, Saudi Arabia) Age: 52 - Email


There is a lot of talk about "voting one's conscience" for Nader. If you do this, and of course, it is your free will and right to do so, don't confuse it with 'goodness' and 'clean conscience'. Everyone is correct who has stated that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. Gee, maybe Nader and Bush are in cohoots? Who knows, really? It is obvious, however that ANY vote for Nader is one taken from Gore. Getting back to "doing the right thing for a clean conscience", just remember that perhaps those of you who are voting for Nader for this reason may not feel so well when the "jack-booted troops" are breaking up your 'circles' and preventing you from worshiping the way you would like. If Bush is elected, a hush will fall over American caused by the eradication of religious freedoms that will percolate from the Supreme Court down to the town hall politics, and of course, then transfer over to the secular. I don't believe one should be feeling to 'high and mighty' for voting for Nader when those votes were needed by Gore to prevent that rapscallion Bush from becoming President. Some of you have stated that if Bush gets elected you would want to move to another country. I can certainly commiserate with you. I am lucky. I have been living in South Africa for almost two years. It certainly has its problems, but if Bush gets elected, I told my husband that I don't want to go back to the USA until he is out of office. I'm serious! I think those chemtrails are making everyone loopy. Bush is so wrong for the Presidency that there shouldn't even be a contest. Having Bush for President is like having elected the Village Idiot to the Presidency. So all of you who are voting your conscience for Nader instead of Gore should ask yourselves if being governed by the Village Idiot is a good thing and are you proud of yourselves for helping to contribute to that idiocy?


I Am Glad Many See The Problems With Bush. I Just Wish... Oct 24th. at 5:32:44 pm EDT

greengoddess (Howell, Michigan US) Age: 18 - Email


I am glad many see the problems with Bush. I just wish some could understand the importance of keeping him out of office. For our reproductive rights and our religious freedoms. Many seem quick to vote for Nader because of his views, but fail to realize this, as bad as it sounds, Nader doesn't stand a chance in this election. Yes, a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, sorry but it is the truth. I must imagine that many Green Party supporters, will go home after they vote and "pray" Gore wins. I just wish more people would realize what's at stake. If Bush wins there will be problems.

Blessed Be


This Is Going To Be My First Presidential Electionand I Think The... Oct 24th. at 5:22:15 pm EDT

Amanda Hill (Allen, Texas US) Age: 19 - Email


This is going to be my first presidential electionand I think the obvious choice is Gore. In fact, I am terribly surprised that the race is so close! Okay, so Gore isn't perfect, and Nader would be better, but I don't think Gore is that bad a guy at all, and he's WAY better than Bush. Bush is inexperienced and just plain dumb. I'm a Texan, and he hasn't done anything good for Texas these last eight years. Have you seen the air over Texas lately? Awful! Air pollution warnings every day in August. If I stay outside too long it gets hard to breathe. Then there's that abortion thing. If Bush is elected, he has the opportunity to turn the Supreme Court around and make it pro-life, which means the right to choose will be in danger. Then there's his ties with the NRA, and that stupid thing he said about witchcraft not being a religion. I mean, I'm a democrat, but I've seen Republicans before that I've respected. I have NO respect for Bush.

And I am NOT choosing the lesser of two evils. I think Al Gore is a highly intelligent and decent human being and will make a fine president.

Too bad I live in Texas, which means my vote won't count. Ah well, at least my concience will be clear when I go vote for Al. I just can't bear the thought of ANOTHER four or eight years with George W.


Simple - Al Gore Gets My Vote, If For No Other Reason Than... Oct 24th. at 4:25:15 pm EDT

Scott (Bronx, New York US) Age: 38


Simple - Al Gore gets my vote, if for no other reason than the fact that there are upcoming openings in the High Court, and I certainly do not want that bozo, the Shrub, to be able to select candidates.


At Least George W. Bush Was Honest When He Said "i Don't... Oct 24th. at 3:57:38 pm EDT

blackthorne (Walnut Creek, California US) Age: 35 - Email


At least George W. Bush was honest when he said "I don't think Witchcraft is a religion." This shows his true colors as a complete idiot. However, Our esteemed
Al Gore is hiding his views when he claims "I don't think freedom of religion means freedom from religion." this basically tells us he is for school prayer and anything else christian they want to ram down our throats. I am sick of
the having to choose between the lesser of two evils. It's like choosing between
Hitler and Darth Vader, who do you go with when you know each one is going
to screw you over. I am voting for Ralph Nader, I know he won't win, but my
conscience will be clean. I think a vote for Gore or (shudder)Bush is a vote
for the wrong Party. Gore is a conservative christian in sheeps clothing.
If Bush get's elected, Pagans are going to be in serious trouble. I forsee
a bad future with him in office.
Unfortunately the polls show him winning.
What me worry?


IÕm Changing My Support, And I Shall Vote For Gore, Instead Of... Oct 24th. at 3:54:47 pm EDT

John (Colorado Springs, Colorado US) Age: 33 - Email


IÕm changing my support, and I shall vote for Gore,

instead of voting for Bush as I had planned. About two months ago, I posted an essay here saying I would vote for Bush because I generally supported his positions and because I didnÕt fear him attempting to erode religious freedom for pagans.

Well, after following the link on this weekÕs WitchesÕ Voice to the Òwebwhiteblue.orgÓ website and after I read what Bush said on 15 October 2000 (that he doesnÕt think Witchcraft is a religion and implying he would not let pagans in the U.S. military practice their religion), I have to conclude otherwise about Bush.

I donÕt like doing this; I like BushÕs positions in general. And IÕm **really** tired of voting against someone rather than for someone; IÕm really tired of choosing the lesser of two evils. But if Bush cannot grasp that freedom of religion applies to **all** religions, he just isnÕt fit to be president of the U.S.

Gore **does** support the freedom of religion. And, Gore is the only viable opponent to Bush.

Therefore, I have to vote for Gore to stop Bush from using politics, his authority as commander in chief, and Supreme Court nominations to erode the freedom of religion in the United StatesÉ first against Witches and then against ???

AND TO ALL YOU NADER SUPPORTERS: if I can hold my nose and vote for Gore, so can youÉ if nothing else, to stop Bush. Otherwise, your vote for Nader **shall** translate into a vote for Bush. And with this election being a statistical dead-heat, EVERY vote matters to stop Bush and to therefore preserve the freedom of religionÉ for Witchcraft and for **all** religions.

HOLD YOUR NOSE AND VOTE FOR GORE.

Blessed Samhain !

--John
23 October 2000
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
john_littlew@angelfire.com


IÕve Read So Many Of The Arguments Here In This Forum, And... Oct 24th. at 2:41:47 pm EDT

RAiner J. Weber (Berkeley, California US) Age: 43 - Email


IÕve read so many of the arguments here in this forum, and what strikes me is that they come right out of the fear based campaign trail cut through American politics by the Democrats this season.

Wasting your vote on NaderÉ
The place you waste your vote is on either Gore or Bush. The Democrats have gone so far right that their almost the Republicans. LetÕs say Gore becomes president. He may even do a fair job. He may even pass off some of his deeds as not being sponsored by corporate interest. If that happens the Democrats will run him again against another Republican, and once again we will be asked to Òchoose the lesser evilÓ.

My daughter will be able to vote in two election cycles, and I donÕt want her to choose any evil, not even the smaller of two.

Nader is the only choice that doesnÕt stain your conscience.

Oh, but what about the supreme court? Oh, but what about the ACLU, American Atheists, Americans United for separation of church and state, not to mention our own AREN and WARD?.
I donÕt think that these organizations will let our rights get trampled.

Helping the environment? How about taking the 60% that goes into oil and coal research and putting it into renewable research.

Helping society? Why not stop corporate bail-outs and reinvest in education? Why not treat the drug problem as a health issue and not a criminal one?

Gore and Bush wonÕt even come close to touching those solutions. Because they are beholden to so many different corporations and special interests, and that is who fills their war chest for the never ending battle for control of the power (money) in this country.

So many here have mentioned womenÕs rights. Has Gore or Bush selected a woman to run with?
No, only Nader has. Not only is she a woman, but a card carrying Pagan.

Sure Ralph wonÕt win, but with a good showing there will be a third party that can call the Republicans and Democrats to the task of working for the people and not the corporations. Considering the fact that over half the population will not be voting, a 5% turnout sends a big statement. With 5% comes funding in the next election, and with funding the word can go out to all Americans who donÕt know about Ralph Nader and the Green party.

IÕm willing to guess that many here have heard or read almost nothing about Nader. IÕm also willing to bet that it something to do with the corporate mediaÕs finger in politics.

The Green party web site has the SuperRallies available in streaming audio at their web site.

My favorite among many is
http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/nader/boston1.rm
From Boston.

If you want your kids to get a more insidiously, self perpetuating, refined version of politics today, than fall into place and vote from the fear that Bush would be a worse choice than Gore. If you would have your kids living in a progressive/participatory Democracy that could be a model for the world, then vote from your heart.

ÒWe must always be prepared to suffer the consequences of doing the right thingÓ
-Granny D, campaign finance reformer-

Her words put to rest the Òtake a vote from GoreÓ strategy.
http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/odrive/c2k092200_nader.rm
Listen to Crone ÒGranny DÓ speak. Listen to Winnona LaDuke (VP candidate) speak, listen to Phil Donahue as MC and film maker Mike Moore, and listen to Ralph.

For me voting for Gore has the same feel as worshiping hidden in the woods at night. The Ònot BushÓ hysteria sounds a bit like our own self imposed inquisition avoidance tactic.

ÒIf not us, then who? If not now, then whenÓ-Unknown (rather I canÕt recall)

IÕm out as a Pagan, and IÕm out as a Green.
Let the chips fall as the may.

NightHeron
Berkeley, CA


Since The Ars Politica Arena Seems To Only Be Populated By Only... Oct 24th. at 2:22:24 pm EDT

Alumenios (Salem, Massachusetts US) Age: 25 - Email


Since the ars politica arena seems to only be populated by only 2 contenders anymore, (I don't want to think about Nader or Buchanan in office) we have to either vote the lesser of two evils or start a revolution. Since a revolution would have other potentially unfortunate consequences (think Bush and Gore suck? Imagine if some radical revolutionary took up the reins from some sort of coup) we have to stick with what we've got. When you only have chicken and fish on the menu you can't order beef. Maybe if we took the hint from the other constitutional democracies in the world (who have had the benefit of our country's experience and mistakes in writing their more recent constitutions) and incorporate more than two parties. Maybe we should even go whole hog and make potential candidates form coalitions of multiple parties, so that they are endorsing no one single platform or demographic, but choosing the best option available. Isn't that the essence of leadership?
And choosing the best remaining viable option is all we have left, and hope for something better in the future.


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