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Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 5,336,500  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 87

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Question of the Week: 26 - 1/29/2001

What Do You Think About Bush's 'Faith-Based' Initiative Plan?

Pres. George Bush says that he will push a 'faith-based' social program this coming week that he hopes will grant federal money (taxpayer dollars) to fund religious groups doing social work. Does this plan violate the separation of church and state? If those federal bucks become available should Pagan religious groups make a grab for them, too? Or is this proposed religious feeding frenzy for secular federal money really a subtle plot to further bolster the Christian Radical Right's power to proselytize to the masses and, as Americans United believes, further erode the church-state wall?

 Reponses:   There are 87 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 


This Is Another Grey Area For Me... On The One Hand, If... Jan 29th. at 1:27:24 pm UTC

Rhiannon (Seattle, Washington US) Age: 34


This is another grey area for me...
on the one hand, if this was actually going to be a fair thing, open to ALL groups who are doing something to support and help the community, it could be a good thing. However, I don't see that happening with this administration. What will be the guidelines on who is chosen to receive monies? I echo the sentiment that many groups will be left out, we know where Bush stands in accords to religion.
I'm afraid I feel he is not really doing this for the good of all, but more to further himself, with his many relgious campaign backers. I could be wrong...

But I don't think so.
The question on separation of church and state, well that's obvious to me, it does go against that. This worries me as well. There was a reason it was separated in the first place, after all. It doesn't work the "other" way.

Another personal problem I have with this is I see so many large, expensive churches and I think to myself, they already have plenty of money, what are they doing with it besides building more elaborate places of worship? Do I want my tax dollars to go to such places, denominations aside, NO! I don't. While I still respect anyone's faith, one of the reasons I left the Christian path was the hypocrisy of such things. Preaching giving yet I saw so much taking, excess and...
oops, I'll stop that rant right there. You get the point.
I oppose this bill, I do not believe it will be all inclusive, just or fair, and I don't wish to see religion become one with the goverment, we've been there, done that.
If private citizens wish to contribute to programs of THEIR choice, that's wonderful, I don't think the President should be basically telling us which ones are worthy.


I Highly Oppose This Move By Bush For Very Personal Reasons. My... Jan 29th. at 1:21:35 pm UTC

Morganlillith (Wixom, Michigan US) Age: 35 - Email


I highly oppose this move by Bush for very personal reasons. My husband died 4years ago, leaving my daughter and I with very little resource. We had no insurance, and I had not been working, for I was home taking care of my sick husband. After his death, I had no recourse but to take help from Christian charities. My problem was that I had to denounce my own religious beliefs to accept this help. It left my daughter and I feeling helpless and ashamed. There were no pagen groups to help us through this tragedy which left us feeling abandoned and destitute. I have worked hard for the last 4 years to recover what life I had left, and the Christian "help" we recieved was little to nothing and for this I was to feel ashamed and hide my own religious beliefs. I see nothing but tragedy for all pagens who need help in the future. Bush has already denounced our religious faith, so to think that we would get any of this money to help our needy, is a pipe dream. It leaves the Christian radicals to spread thier idiology across this country, taking advantage of the sick and the poor. My prayers have been to see pagen schools and groves to open up in this country as visable as the Christian churches have been allowed to grow, to give people a place to go to get such help as they need and give our children a place to be educated without the harrassment that my family has been put through. Because of my religious beliefs, I have had to pull my child from 2 schools and endure death threats against her with no help from the school officials who were to protect her. Being a pagen in this country right now is dangerous enough without Bush pushing another nail in our coffins with this proposed bill. Personally, if this retoric continues, I have considered giving up my citizenship to become Canadian. At least I could find a home in which I am not afraid for my life or that of my children, and I could rear my children with religious beliefs without fear. I thought america was suppose to be based on religious freedom. Somehow, I feel I was wrong. It is religious freedom if you are Christian. Bush is just telling us all that if you are not Christian then get out of the country, and pretty soon, I will oblige. I would rather be canadian than live in fear and denounce my religious beliefs for the minority.


Gwb's "faith-based" Program Is Plainly Unconstitutional And Illegal. Bush, And Those Who... Jan 29th. at 12:47:55 pm UTC

SGIWizard (St. Louis, Missouri US) Age: 34 - Email


GWB's "faith-based" program is plainly unconstitutional and illegal. Bush, and those who are running the country through him, must have contempt
for the intelligence of the American public to try to push this through. People are bound to ask themselves why the new administration considers it "wasteful spending" to allocate federal funds for social programs, yet wishes to funnel the same $$ to churches for an ostensibly similar purpose. The answer is that the objectives aren't the same at all. Christian churches, which are bound to get the lion's share of the money should this program be
established, will use the funds to proselytize and push regressive social behavior on vulnerable people, often in desperate situations, who will listen to
just about anything to get warm food to eat and a roof over their heads.

I don't think we Pagans should try to make a grab for the funds, if they become
available. It's much more in our interest to promote a strict separation of church and state, as put forth in our Constitution, and to stress that the federal government is not allowed to promote ANY religious institution, financially or otherwise. If the public doesn't see the illegality of this program, after-the-fact complaints by left-out Pagans won't cause a light to dawn. Given GWB's refusal to recognize our religion, we have the proverbial snowball's chance of receiving any funds -- but if by some fluke we did get some, would we feel comfortable accepting it knowing that the vast majority of the remainder is going towards preaching fundamentalist dogma?


As A Political Science Major, Bush's New Social Policies Interest Me A... Jan 29th. at 12:31:29 pm UTC

Hunter (Peterborough, Ontario CA) Age: 23 - Email


As a political science major, Bush's new social policies interest me a great deal, although I am Canadian, and do not have to worry about the effects that these policies will have on me personally, they still trouble me a great deal. It is one thing to lead a country and quite another to willfully shape it's ideologies. Public policy is designed to reflect the needs concerns and moral perspectuives of the political society, however in a country that is so diverse, much like my own, the decision over who's perspectives have more weight unfortunatly lies in the hands of the few elite, who proudly wave their banners of democracy! North America as a whole has far greater concerns other then who beliveves what, what sexual preferances they have, and if they are pro choice or pro life. Recentally here in Canada two gay couples married in Toronto Ontario, and were sent letters of Congradulations from our Governor Gernal, (a status position left over from our British heritage), this letter sparked a great debate amoung the Christian fundamentalists here in Canada who were actually trying to make the Governor retract her original letter, which she did not. In the mean time here, we have people living in tent cities on contaminated land, Native peoples who live in subhuman conditions, childern who live far benieth the poverty line and giant Corporations that sue governments because they pass laws prohibiting the sale of toxic chemicals on our public markets. These are Canadain examples, however for ever one of ours Americans have mirror ones. My point is that our governing bodies today need to take a good look at their coutries as a whole and narrow in on the issues that effect everyone no matter what their religion, ethnicity or economic status is, and it is up to us as rational thinking individuals and members of the political society to exercise our rights to approach our governments though State Governers, and Members of Parlimant (Canadain) to see to it that these people that we sent to office to repersent our concerns actually do the job that they were sent to do. Bush's new social policies do little more then apease those fundamental groups that filled his coffers during his champaign, these policies are not designed with the well being of a strong American domestic sphear, if they were then policies that pit individual interests against one another would be left on the cutting room floor.


Any Time That The Government Gets Mixed Up In Religion, We Are... Jan 29th. at 12:16:39 pm UTC

Yasmine Galenorn (Seattle, Washington US) Age: 40 - Email


Any time that the government gets mixed up in religion, we are in for trouble. First it will start with supporting faith-based social programs, then it will extend into the conservative right creeping into the educational system, then our homes. We have to be very cautious not to get caught up in supporting an edict that goes against freedom from religion for those who choose to refrain from faith of *any* kind. Our country works best when we separate church from state, that is one of the primary tenets the U.S. is based on and we'd best not forget that--Christian, Pagan or otherwise. It's time we put a stop to these official 'religion-pushing' tactics. Call your senators, your representatives. Let them know we are here and we won't accept this (not-so-slow now) disintegration of our basic and agreed upon freedoms.


This Is A Test Of Our Faith. My Initial Reaction Is To... Jan 29th. at 11:12:10 am UTC

Sphinxring (Snoqualmie, Washington US) Age: 48 - Email


This is a test of our faith. My initial reaction is to want "someone" to make proposals for a social program run by pagans. From a political viewpoint, this would force the issue. However, there is likely to be all kinds of technical rules to winnow out anyone who is not sincere in their plans to institute a social program. Christian organizations can easily point at a history of social action, even if we might find the results repugnant. Can we say the same? I would hope so, but can't think of any. I really hope I'm wrong, but to don't think there are any. This points to the question "Why not?". The easy answer is that we are so ingrained with secrecy, that we avoid any hig profile activity that would expose our beliefs to public examination. Are we ready for this? Of course there is risk involved but what exactly is the risk? Likely not a new wave of burnings. Public ridicule? Opening our hearts to strangers? This issue asks if we are self-indulgent (I'm guilty!) or can sincerely reach out to the unfortunate. Merely mimicing Christian actions is playing their game by their rules. No, creative action must be evolved. I'd advise to oppose the erosion of the separation and church and state and simply oppose this initiative. Our actions need to be free of the greed and power seeking inherent with a rush to apply to play in this game.


Of Course This Is A Violation Of Church And State. Of Course... Jan 29th. at 10:51:48 am UTC

Iko (Chicago, Illinois US) Age: 36 - Email


Of course this is a violation of church and state. Of course there are going to be court battles over the very notion of your and my tax dollars going to support the likes of any number of fundy bible thumpers. But in the mean time, when in Rome do as the Romans do! (Even if this strange Rome is your own country.) By this I mean every eligible Pagan group should apply for money as soon as they possibly can. (Now it should be interesting what kind of 'requirements' come with getting the money, what will you have to do to be eligible - and if it is much easier say for born again Southern Baptists to get funding than it is for any Pagan group.) We have already heard from the Bush camp in pre-election quotes that "the Witches" would not be getting any funding... lets see if he really wants a court battle regarding the legitimacy of any of the religions that fall under the Pagan umbrella of religions. Personally, I was hoping that I might just be able to ignore politics for the next four years. However, I knew and know more now than ever that we must not let the current conservative Christian regime that is running the country force us back into our broom closets. So, I say apply for the money and then be as loudly vocal as you can be when your group is turned down. Fight them all the way to the Supreme Court. It is up to us, every single one of us, to show that we are as religiously legitimate as our born again Christian next door neighbors.


I Think That President Bush Is On A Very Strong Hallucinogenic Drug... Jan 29th. at 10:32:55 am UTC

MoonRider (Chickasha, Oklahoma US) Age: 23 - Email


I think that President Bush is on a very strong hallucinogenic drug to try and pull that out of his hat. This violates church and state to a great extent. For him to want to do this means that he alienates those who may not believe in God or if they do, subscribe to a specific religion. He feels that if faith-based social programs are promoted that all of societies ills will be cured, but it will take more than that to cure societies ills. This IS a move to bolster the Christian Radical Right.


Greetings Pagans, We Feel That It Is To Break Down The Walls... Jan 29th. at 10:16:56 am UTC

Nightstar (Joplin, Missouri US) Age: 50 - Email


Greetings Pagans,
We feel that it is to break down the walls of separation of church and state....that is the main idea, of course. Dubya is a Christian for his God's sake! What do we expect? However, there are areas of need and some religious charities have done some good work, so its a mixed bag.
A simple solution would be one where groups of religious entities work together for common good of their community. However, in our "let someone else do it' mentality that idea is lost. We are so accustomed to hand a dollar over to the government in order to get back a nickle and that is mostly lost in "administrative costs". Man is a very complicated lot!


Well, I Have To Admit It _sounds_ Good. Then Again, So Did... Jan 29th. at 10:04:13 am UTC

Alexandra R. Bush (Hackensack, New Jersey US) Age: 21 - Email


Well, I have to admit it _sounds_ good.

Then again, so did communism, and look how all the attempts to put that into action did.

I think this plan would open the door to a great deal of exclusionism. Since Bush's admittedly born-again Christian goverment would be deciding which groups would get the funds, there's quite a chance that followers of religions not supported or liked by these bigots (namely, any other than their own) would suffer... and what about atheists, agnostics, and solitares?

H'm. Wasn't there something in the Constitution about a separation of church & state?


Freedom Of Religion Or Freedom From Religion? This Is A Very Hard... Jan 29th. at 8:11:38 am UTC

Trish Telesco (western, New York US) Age: 40 - Email


Freedom of religion or freedom FROM religion?

This is a very hard call. My basic feeling is that Bush does not intend to make these monies easy to come by except for groups whose policies follow his own (yes, that's a judgemental statement but we've already seen an example of how non-inclusive he is by the terrible benediction at the inauguration). So unless this program is open to ALL faiths, and does not have hidden requirements that would allow certain religions more access than others, then I don't want it. The line of church and state is already being stomped all over - and if we're not very careful it could be erased alltogether.


Although I Would Rather Optomisticaly Belive That This Program Could Be Benificial... Jan 29th. at 6:12:42 am UTC

KJ Burrier (fostoria, Ohio US) Age: 33 - Email


Although I would rather optomisticaly belive that this program could be benificial to many people, I know our government has or would eventually have a political agenda behind such a program. As a pagan I have no quarells for the perpetuation of anyones beliefs', but in the same respect I have a huge argument for the enforcement of some other group's beliefs over mine. Which would be done by the taking and spending of my money on such, in the form of tax dollars. As a libertarian I have no quarells for the great work of a community to come together and provide social assistance to those in need, but in the same respect it is no place of the government to decide if your religion is worthy enough to be granted to do so. Its for these reasons the issue of seperation between church and state was put into the constitution. The founding fathers went through the trials and tribulations of a state organised/funded religion and saw how no good could come from it. So I belive it is best to nip it in the bud and refuse and reject the notion of this no matter how well meaning it may seem to start as. I do like John's suggestion of a central pagan organisation (CPO) to accept and distribute funds for social or pagan interest. I also believe how ever any group or groups wishing to do so does not need the governments money to do this. This just encourages the law makers to take more taxes.


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