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Question of the Week: 113

Pagan Problem Children: What Can We Do About Them?

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Responses: [2,666]

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 Author:    Posted: Nov. 17, 2002   This Page Viewed: 16,516,690  

Vox Q Stats

Times Viewed: 32,767

Reponses: 153

Lurker/Post Ratio: 214 to 1

Question of the Week: 95 - 1/19/2003

How Do You Feel About War?

‘Yes I'm talking about this war dance/ A patriotic romance./And I know all you poets/Have seen it all before…’ – Colin Moulding, XTC

Colin: ‘The words were originally prompted by the Falklands War in 1982. But it was too much on one piece of history. Then along came the Persian Gulf War and I put the revised lyrics to a new piece of music. It was time to bring war out of the closet again.’

And again, it would seem. How do you, from your own spiritual perspective or tradition, view and/or cope with the ideals and realities of war and armed conflict?

Do your political leanings influence how you feel?

Do you have a difficult time explaining/defending/advocating your position to other Pagans or Heathens? Non-Pagans?

 Reponses:   There are 153 responses posted to this question. Reverse Sort 

Let Us Think About This ... Jan 22nd. at 9:06:57 pm EST

American Pagan (Missouri) Age: 26 - Email

There are many questions that need to be answered. Why did the US government give weapons to Saddam durring the Iraq war with Iran? Why did US government help install a dictator in Iran and fuel this conflict further? Why did the US give Saddam permission to obtain a Kuwait oilfield and once he entered Iraq we went screaming into the gulf in the name of peace. Why did the US govt get involved with Kuwait and not Rowanda where thousands were murdered durring genecide? Why did the US government fabricate stories about Kuwait babies being thrown out of incubators by Iraq soldiers?

The reasoning that we should attack Iraq to boilster the economy is one of the sickest excuses I have ever heard. It is a disgrace to have brave American's forfeit their lives for money. As a Pagan I hold to harm none unless self defense is necessary. The UN inspectors are not done. Bush is'nt even waiting until they are done. There is no proof that Saddam poses a threat. And how do we expect the Iraq people to overthrow a dicatator if they have no food, clean water, or medical care?

Before Pagans bang the war drum, they need to remember our religion is one that teaches responsibility above all else. Take the time to listen to those who are in Iraq working with its people. Listen to their stories of starvation and disease caused by the sanctions. No one deserves that. Just because Pagans strive to observe the laws of nature by no means give us the right to prey on the weak of another nation. Harm None.

This has ceased to be a war on terrorism. A war to end events like 9/11. It has become a case of global greed and I will follow the idea of "The Truth Against the World" because what is popular isn't always right.

My Thoughts Jan 22nd. at 8:28:11 pm EST

Rhaspody Cleaver (Here where ever that is) Age: 16 - Email

My Thoughts on war. Ever sence before the Spartans, the human race has had wars. Its nothing new. many would argue that the animal kingdom has no war, but that as well is false. Watch the ants one day and you might just see one such war. Now, I am not saying war is correct. I abhore war. But it is sadly in the nature of many things, including the human race. Everyone I have encountered have each delt with war in diffrent ways, but one thing remains the same. They deal.
This too is human nature. To adapt. War is a horrible thing. It kills many, but the death toll is nothing compared to the amount of lives it touches. War can be prevented, but not for long.

Those are my thoughts. sorry they are bemuttled a bit.
Best wishes for peace,
Rhaspody Cleaver

All The More Reason Jan 22nd. at 3:37:09 pm EST

Wade Shell (Fort Benning, Ga) Age: 40 - Email

The fact is that the United States government has chosen to send 150,000 some soldiers, sailors and airmen to the region. In the near future we will probably be experiencing another war in the gulf. So, the question is not "if" war, but "why" war. One cannot ask the young men and women being sent over there, because there would be 150,000 different answers to that question.

However, I think that there can be some generalities made of the various players in our great country. The national leaders are probably wanting the war to expand control of our influence in the region. If you think it's oil...think again. A war with Iraq will make oil prices higher by temporarily limiting production and distrobution throughout the region. Many of the pro-war factions, usually refered to as "right wingers", are in favor because it will boost the overall economy for a time. Those clear thinking humanitarians will, no doubt, remember the suffering of the Iraqi people, and realize that removing the dictator will only make life better. The left wing factions are benefitting as well. Many small socialist groups are experiencing noteriety by staging demonstrations with the gullible people, including some silly celebrities. So, the overall take is that there can be no clear cut reason to abstain, or engage on conflict.

We all must decide for ourselves if the price will match the benefits. As a soldier in the Army with nineteen years of service in the infantry, I do not believe any stretch of sand is worth a single soldier. But, for all the "right" reasons; expanded influence, boosted economy, easing suffering, I will lead my soldiers into the combat zone knowing that it is the "right" thing to do.

It's Coming Soon! Jan 22nd. at 3:17:42 pm EST

Odin (Anacortes, WA) Age: 47 - Email

Greetings all,

This is not a response or opinion per se. It is a fact that I live just 20 miles from Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, HOME OF THE INTRUDERS (military aircraft that takes ourt SANDS, that's enemy ground missles that kill our U.S. Aircraft to those of you that do not know.) About every other day, the Intruders fly their training paths, and we that live nearby have grown very use to the sounds of their engines. We live with it almost everyday, and they have become just a natural part of our surroundings as the wind, or the trees, UNTIL TODAY.

The sounds of the engines which started about an hour ago 11:am PST on January 22, 2003 have changed, they are now practicing with full trottles very low, and very close to the City, and one just buzzed over my house making the windows shake. Saddam, you are about to get your ass kicked, and may our proud armed forces put you in the ground this time.


Re: Unless You Have Lived It SHUT UP Jan 22nd. at 2:30:12 pm EST

Tina Horn (Washington, DC/Columbia, MD) Age: 35 - Email

Sean, I have to disagree with you. You're right, at the absolute moment of a firefight, there's no room for thinking. I can't imagine what that must be like and will take your word for it.

However, to imply that those who do not have experience of war do not have rights to have opinions about it is disrespectful. That would be like women opining that men, who will never get pregnant, have no right to have opinions about the abortion debate.

With respect,


War Is Hell...But... Jan 22nd. at 1:17:19 pm EST

Belfire (Pennsylvania) Age: 40 - Email

As long as there are people in the world that feel they are of a higher importance and power than the rest..Our planet will be at war. This is proven through-out history. But..if you look at nature, only the strong survive.. unfortunately our idea of "strong" is not the same as Mother Earth
Back in the 80's I had the "privledge?" of being directly involved in the "gadhafi Raid" (wasn't even called a war) After our bombing mission (in which his child was killed) we came back to the United States to hear "Baby Killers!" Yes, it hurt tremendously as no one ever wants to hear of a child's death/murder..But...The populace in "those" countries are taught from very young to Hate the United States.
Next time you see an innocent childrens' movie, Barney (that silly purple dinno) or Mickey Mouse..Stop and think for a minute..sadam (will not capitalize) brainwashed his own children (from a very yound age) with videos of severe torture, graphic, bloody, painful slow violence, which he inflicted on his own people..and was proud of it.
We have been very successful, throughout the years, in keeping our country free. Since 9-11 (I still have the message on my answering machine, from my Fiance..He was 1/2 block away) we are in jeopardy of loosing that to power hungry lunatics (and I include our own leaders in that statement) We as human being need to pay attention..instead of just LALALA through life..make our leaders accountable for their actions, question them (they are not gods!!!)
War is Hell..and NO the sound effects are not great!! That is just a way for our service people to "get through it"..ALIVE!!!
Am I for war..No!! a neccessary evil..mmmmm..Yes :(
White Light surround our service men and women.
Please pray for them..they need it...from someone that knows

Unless You Have Lived It SHUT UP Jan 22nd. at 1:15:10 pm EST

Sean (USA and Canada) Age: 35 - Email

Unless any of you have had to kill or be killed shut up. Thats what I have to say, because on the ground in a fight there are two things you know and thats fear and the will to live. Doesnt matter what you believe or what Politics you have back home. If some one starts shooting at you you will shoot back.
There is no time to think or to talk. there is just time to move from one place to the next and hope they dont move faster then you.

There Is An Easy Way To Settle This... Jan 22nd. at 12:46:57 pm EST

Weaver (USA) Age: 37 - Email

It is clear to the astute viewer that this IS about OIL, IS about removing Sadam, IS about HAVING a regine to work OIL deals with AND is about avenging the threats against Dubya's daddy.

So... In the spirit OF this reality, how about a simple one on one...

A duel? I guess.

A fight to the death via hand to hand? I do know that our 'leader' DOES work out at least two hours a day, IS what 15 years younger? ... He *should* be able to take Sadam... YES?

Do it on pay per view and offer it world wide. What a cash cow it would be.

None of our boys/girls would be slaughter'd ... none of Sadam's boys/girls would be slaughtered.

Let's find out for sure JUST how tough our leader is.

War Is A Necessity At Times. Jan 22nd. at 12:33:02 pm EST

Bryan (Indiana) Age: 29 - Email

Unfortunately, war is a necessity in many cases. Was the American Revolution necessary? I believe so, yes. Whenever a government infringes on the inherent rights of the citizenry, then war is justified--what else has ever caused a government to relinquish power after it has been established over another people? However, I find myself dismayed at many of the postings I've read. World War II . . . the good war? Maybe viewed from certain vantage points, a case can be made for it. If I were a German Jew, homosexual, Gypsy, or essentially any non-Aryan, then absolutely. Or a Czech, or an Austrian. But as an American, and one who's read and understood history, I'm well aware that FDR crowded the Japanese into attacking us in order to force Germany to declare war on us. And thus it was done. Not that there weren't viable reasons to desire Hitler out of power, but that they were not the concern of the GOVERNMENT of the United States. The people, on the other hand . . . that's a moral question. Many of the postings have also stated that they feel that governments should be run as an essential theocracy, as long as their interpretation of divinity is the only one represented. If WWII was just and right for Americans to fight, then why not Iraq? Saddam has proven that he will violate borders of sovereign nations, just as Hitler did. He has proven that he will attempt genocide against the citizenry of his own country, just as Hitler did. If it is a moral question, then this war is equally just with 'the good one'.
However, while war is often a necessity, I do not believe that this war is justified for the United States. There is no proof that anything other than ill-intent resides in Iraq. And as we've seen, all those who wish the US ill are not viable targets for war, right Skeggi?
As a citizen of a smaller nation, you may well look to the UN for your domestic security. The question you must ask, however, is at root value, who provides the troops to the UN? Not to besmirch the other countries who have supplied forces, but anyone with any experience in the military is well acquainted with the fact that the majority of any Joint Operation is going to be American . . . as in Desert Storm. But I would like to close with the sentiment that while I do not agree with all of you . . . I support your right to be wrong. And even vocalize it.

This Isn't Going To Be Popular, But.. Jan 22nd. at 10:37:57 am EST

MoonOwl (Egypt Lake, USA) Age: 39 - Email

I think we should take Saddam out. Now if this dictator and his sons want to go into exile all the better. No war, no bloodshed. I doubt this will happen as he seems to be spoiling for a good fight. More and more of our troops are being deployed everyday. This war IS coming and Saddam is the only one that can stop it.

Now don't get me wrong..I don't like war. I know innocent people are going to be killed. But we are going to be dealing with a madman who has already said he will 1) tie people to tanks so that we "lifeloving" (not my word) Americans won't shoot at them. 2) put women and children in the path of our military personnal so we won't shoot them. 3) human shields are coming from everywhere to protect this madman. I've heard more, but can't remember exactly. This is a madman who does not respect any life but his own. I worry about innocent people on both sides being killed. But, he has already killed his own people without remorse for years and years.

Now I know this sounds cold, but if we actually have to go in there I hope we do the job we should have done in the Gulf War. I hope we are strong. I certainly wouldn't want to be one of the ones having to blow up a tank w/people tied to it. But if this madman is going to use this against us we best steel ourselves and take it to the end. Our men and women in the military will need some serious support from us when they get back (NO SPITTING ON THEM). But it cannot stop us from what needs to be done.

If we are not strong in this and do WHATEVER needs to be done to end this madness we will be viewed as weak and open for another attack. Sometimes it does come down to "kill or be killed". Fact of life. Again, it would be nice if saddam & his lunatic sons went into exile. No muss, no fuss, they can be assasinated later. But I don't think their egos will let them. It would have been nice to finish this back when we had the chance, but it didn't happen, so 10 years later here we are again.

We have to remember that there is a very good possibility that our Administration may have more information than they let on. I think it's a very strong possibility that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction hidden from view. I certainly don't want to find out the hard way by some actually making it here or some other free country that thinks we're being greedy bullies. I didn't vote for President Bush. But I'd like to think if this was just about getting back at Saddam for trying to kill Bush's daddy, he wouldn't get this war at all. Again, maybe they have info we don't.

If our Administration did nothing in the name of Peace and Life for All and we got hit by several nukes because of that stance I'm sure quite a lot of people would be asking why we didn't act when we could. Hard to be peace-loving when you are glowing a bright shade of radioactive green. How many peace-loving people are ready to give their children & pets a lethal injections because it's better than dying of radiation poisoning??? Not me. Go over there and do whatever needs to be done. Whatever that is. We have to show strength. We have to be willing to do whatever needs to be done. Period. No exceptions. How many are willing to give their lives for peace for future generations?

We have the best military in the world. If we have to use it, then by Goddess, we must use it with all our might. We have to show we will not be bullied or black-mailed. We have to show that we will not hesitate to kill innocents if we are forced to. We have to show that we are not weak nor afraid. No exceptions.

Now, feel free to blast me for my opinion. I do wish this war can be avoided. I wish Saddam would take exile. I wish this wasn't even a topic for consideration. But it is and I think we should go over there and do whatever we need to to stop this madness. If we show we are not weak and squimish about taking lives when necessary, maybe some of these American-hating countries will think twice before trying to take us on again. I get absolutly livid when I think about the Twin Towers and the Pentagon & the other plane that crashed (True heros, those peace-loving people were..good example...they were willing to die for us because that's what was needed). How dare some group think they could do that to us???? We should come across as so mighty, no one would ever dare to try something like that again.

This coming from someone who takes spiders out of my house. I pray this war can be avoided but I also pray that if not, we have the strength to do whatever is necessary to end this maddness.

And remember, if this is just about Bush's family battle, he won't be re-elected and his political career will be over. It is a stong possibility that he is trying to do the right thing for all the free countries of this world. (gosh, did I actually just defend the man?? eew!! - he better live up to it!!)

Saddam & Sons, Take the Exile Option....Please!


A Duel? Jan 22nd. at 10:05:15 am EST

Steve (Mays Landing, NJ) Age: 43 - Email

Several Months ago, Sadam Hussein challenged Georgie W. to a duel. Wouldn't that be cool; The idea of the two War Mongers annihilating each other so the rest of us in both countries could go on with our lives.

Ain't Gonna Study War No More Jan 22nd. at 8:26:44 am EST

Lathriel (Williamsville, NY) Age: 17 - Email

I attended the protest rally in washington DC this past weekend. It was my fist protest. It was wonderful and horrible.

Let me explain.

It was wonderful because so many people (over 250,000!) came from all over the country to protest something that they knew was wrong. All over the world, even, people were gathering and speaking out against shedding any more blood for the conquest of oil.
It was terrible because it was proof of the media's influence in our lives. The organization I drove with down to DC (A.N.S.W.E.R.) confirmed that at least 250,000 people had signed up just on the buses they had organized throughout the country. There were other people there who drove on their own, came on planes, trains, different buses, and locals. It was estimated that nearly 500,000, a half a million people attended the rally. The news said 30,000.
So if we're so wrong, wide should they hide the numbers?
War is not the answer to anything, especially when one nuclear giant is trying to steal nuclear weapons we sold to the other..... ahhh.... it's so wrong. Politics can go down the toilet for all I care, just gimme peace....

-Lathriel Link to More info related to this post -- HERE

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