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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 15599
[Religious]
Date Posted:
6/8/2006
9:26:09 pm EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 6,874
RSS: 15,028
Comments: 26
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Christians Vow To Break Smacking Law
Author: Simon Collins Source: New Zealand Herald (NZ)
Title: CHRISTIANS VOW TO BREAK SMACKING LAW
Conservative Christian groups say they will be forced to break the law if Parliament stops allowing the reasonable use of force to discipline children.
A string of churches, Christian schools and individual Christians told a parliamentary committee in Mangere yesterday that Green MP Sue Bradford's "anti-smacking" bill flouted their biblical beliefs and would "open the way for religious persecution and intolerance".
Pastor Peter Boyd of Manurewa's Covenant Presbyterian Church, part of a breakaway group that split from the Presbyterian Church in opposition to homosexuality, said Christians believed the Bible was the authority and they were bound to follow it.
"In this case too sharp a line is being drawn. Christians in particular, and others too, will be forced to disobey the state to do what is right according to their conviction."
Of 55 submitters heard yesterday, 22 supported the bill. Kim Gosden of the Waitakere Abuse and Trauma Counselling Service said that almost all parents who came to counseling about violence had experienced violence in their own childhoods.
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Community Thoughts: There are 26 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Law Won't Stop An Abuser | Jun 11th. at 6:40:16 pm EDT
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Mysteries Child (Garfield, West Virginia) - Email Me
It might give something more concrete to prosecute abusers under-- and I cannot bring myself to say that's not a good thing-- but it won't stop abuse from taking place.
Although I've seen a few (Fundamental Christian) exceptions, most abusive parents don't think what they're doing is right. They know it's wrong. They simply lose control.
That doesn't excuse it by any stretch of the imagination. But it does mean that carving out a law to say "striking a child for any reason is wrong" won't stop abuse from happening.
Personally, I spank my daughter. Time-out is useless-- unless I'm going to duct-tape her to a chair, she simply ignores it. She's too young to be grounded. Speaking to her sternly usually works just fine...
...but, maybe one time out of twenty, unacceptable behavior continues despite repeated warnings. Once in a great while, she physically endangers herself by attepting to climb out of a shopping cart or pulling away from me in a parking lot.
Two swats across the bottom, with my open hand. Taping her to a chair might be non-violent, but I think it would be far more damaging and much more akin to abuse.
You can't define-- or prevent-- abuse by trying to make the issue black-and-white. Though the problem manifests physically, it originates in the mind, where black-and-white simply does not exist.
But if you need one simple guideline to prevent yourself from abusing your kids...
...when you feel yourself losing control, feel yourself wanting to hurt (there may be some people out there who never get that frustrated, but most of us do) --admit what's going on and **walk away.**
Make sure they're not bleeding or in any immediate danger. Put them somewhere safe, put away anything they can harm themselves with, and then put a wall between you and them. Take fifteen or twenty minutes to calm down. Then go back and deal with it.
Getting frustrated doesn't make you a bad parent. Showing frustration doesn't make you a bad parent.
Between PPD, unrealistic expectations of myself, and being completely unprepared for motherhood, I came right to the point of harming my daughter before I learned to walk away.
I hated myself for doing it at first. I thought I should be able to understand everything and fix everything while maintaining angelic serenity.
Now, for her sake and mine, I'm just thankful I learned to walk away.
Almost everyone gets frustrated. Almost everyone shows it. That makes you human. Letting it build to the point that you lose control, however, can be an entirely different story, and not one anyone will be thankful for.
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| Following The Example Of Jesus | Jun 10th. at 11:17:10 am EDT
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Trickster (Kokopeli's Town, Texas) - Email Me
Well I can see where these Christians are coming from. Their religion is totally based on a case of twisted child abuse. Your kid got spanked for stealing an apple? Hell, God had his son tortured to death because someone else stole an apple. And if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for your little brats too. Kind of gives a whole new meaning to "you better not make mommy cross"
(I've only had 4 sips of coffee this morning so it may not be obvious - I'm being sarcastic)
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| Harm None | Jun 10th. at 10:29:15 am EDT
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Liriel (Lehigh Acres, Florida) - Email Me
There are so many ways to teach a child right from wrong without ever striking them. I think non violent methods take a little more time and patience but to me its worth it because I want my kids to learn good parenting skills.
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| Grandma Dance | Jun 10th. at 8:43:22 am EDT
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Red Cedar Owl (Deville, Louisiana) - Email Me
On this one I side with the Christians. At 52 I am sick and tired of hearing some scum bag who has tortured, raped and/or killed someone because they were abused as a child. Give me a break. I was raised by my grandparents. My grandmother did not "whip" me very often, but when I had gotten on her last nerve--- I did the "grandma dance" that is done with one hand up (the one she had hold of) and one hand down (the one I was using to block the switch) while at the same time running around her, crying and saying, "I won't do it again, I won't do it again!!" all of this in time/tune to the sound of a peach tree switch or the wire handle of a fly swatter whistling thru the air before it made contact with my butt or legs.
Was it abusive, probably, at least by today's standards. Did it make me a mean, nasty, abusive person-- NO!! You do not "reason" with children. That is why "the age of reason" is considered to be 13 or 14 years of age. A head strong child and a parent who will not enforce correct behavior is a recipe for future problems.
Does child abuse exist-- Yes
Are there monsters in our society that were abused as children-- Yes
Correlating the two as a cause and effect is like correlating the existence of gambling with casinoes. Gambling existed before casinoes and monsterous behavior by some humans existed long before anyone ever heard of "child abuse".
If WE don't put a stop to the invasive reach of government-- any government into the private lives of people and families then all any of US will ever be to that government is breeding stock. The men will be needed for their sperm and the women for their eggs and wombs. The end result of the "perfect nanny state".
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| I Have To Say.. | Jun 10th. at 8:28:43 am EDT
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Pinky McFatfat, High Shamrock Shake (Dublin) (Northumberland, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
...that I spank my child.
Reading this article, I had to really think about when the last time I did it though because it's so rare.
It was about two months ago...We were at my brothers farm helping to put some trees in. My son and his cousin were both instructed NOT to go near the pond (not deep, but that's beside the point) because the adults would be busy and not able to watch them.
Both boys snuck off and were found waist deep in the water.
Both boys got spanked by their respective mothers...Afterward, they were both asked why they had been spanked. Both had similar answers about how what they did was very dangerous because they could have drown and they had gotten a spanking their parents wanted to teach them a lesson.
Abuse? I think not...and they haven't snuck off to the pond again.
Treacle
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| If It Ain't Broke- Don't Fix It. | Jun 9th. at 11:05:27 pm EDT
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bigcat (peoria, Illinois) - Email Me
I sincerely hope that those who intend to break this law don't intend to abuse children as there's enough of that going around already. Still, I also agree that somehow, power must be taken out of the hands of children who would use Child and Family Services as a way to get back at their parents who discipline them for infractions that they create.And the government unwittingly feeds into this by the sanctions they create in telling parents what they can- and can not do with their own children.
Many kids are forever pushing the envelope to see just how far they can push to get their own way and will use any loophole that they can. And while spanking may work, and should be considered only an option, it alone may not be enough. Limit setting must be done early and often for a child to understand that limits do exist concerning both other people and property- and the meaning of responsiblity. Otherwise, they can become thoughtless monsters. And The government walks a fine line in determining what is -or is not right in child care and rearing but it is far too standardized to be of any real use, except to protect children from real abuse but can be overly draconian in their efforts in any other case. Since there are already child abuse laws on the books, I believe that the Government should step in only as a last resort--as they were meant to do-- and allow parents to set the limits in their own homes as they are supposed to do and use whatever form that works for them.
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| I Can Understand The Law | Jun 9th. at 10:40:53 pm EDT
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Jedi Gordy (Edinboro, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
My sister needed to have her @$$ smacked around more. As for me, I was blamed for everything she did, everything I did, and some things that went wrong. I was smacked around just up to the point where it would be considered abuse. It finally ended when I threated to kill my parents and tried it. THATS how bad it got. I would go into school with welt marks ON MY NECK. I probably have sustained a little perminent damage because of it. So, yeah, I understand the law. I believe in spanking, just a little bit. But not a lot, and not brutally.
Moose Warrior
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| Important To Note... | Jun 9th. at 4:57:19 pm EDT
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William (Pictou Landing, Nova Scotia) - Email Me
Parents who spank do not ALWAYS spank.... it is not the only form of punishment used.... in fact, it is rarely used and usually only in cases where it is warranted. There is also a big difference between child abuse and spanking... someone who was abused was more than simply spanked. Putting a child in time out is great when they spill orange juice on the carpet after being told not to have it near the carpet, but there are cases where more severe punishment is necessary to imprint the severity of their actions... that is where spanking comes in, it let's the child know they went way too far and their actions are unacceptable. Spill orange juice on carpet = timeout, smash your neighbor's windows out on purpose = timeout?
Nope, don't think so... there are times when a spanking is necessary to show the different between things that can be simple mistakes that may happen again, and things that we should be sure we never do again. Accidents happen, but we need to be aware of the consequences of our choices and our actions. It is a parent's responsibility to teach those lessons.
The punishment needs to fit the crime.
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| Beyond Religion | Jun 9th. at 2:28:01 pm EDT
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Mars (brooklyn, New York) - Email Me
This, for clarity's sake, is not about teachers or coaches hitting children, it's about parents. This is far beyond a debate about whether the religious justification for 'spanking' is rationale or appropriate-- rather, this is about a group of legislators, spurned by people who think it is up to them to decide how everyone should raise children, interfering with natural parental rights to discipline children as appropriate within reasonable discretion.
This is NOT a 'child abuse' law. Out- lawing 'spanking' is certainly not going to deter parents who repeatedly beat children with resulting injuries. These criminals will continue to abuse their children-- there are already laws against child abuse that these people ignore. This new law is a 'we psycho-social planners at the Dept. of Big Brother's Children's Services are going to tell you parents how we want you to raise your kids, with criminal sanctions against you if you disobey us.'
This also puts incredible power into the hands of youngsters who are out of control--- "oh, so I can't go out? so you took my playstation away? no TV until homework's done, huh? watch this! hello? emergency services? my parents hit me!" No proof of abuse by way of bruises, welts, cuts or broken bones needed to sustain a charge-- an allegation of a mere 'spank' is enough to warrent investigation and possibly arrest.
I have found that very occasional corporal punishment with all my kids, esp. in the 4 -5 year old range, was absolutely necessary, in order to instill respect, snap them into control of themselves, or prevent dangerous behavior (running into the street) at an age where reasoning with them wouldn't be reliable- 'conditioning' was needed.
I'm not saying that every kid at some point needs corporal punishment, but most at one time or another do, and parents who can't give their kids a good swat when they need it on the pretense of nonviolence are, IMHO, shirkers of their responsibilities as parents.
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| Spanking Ok | Jun 9th. at 11:48:44 am EDT
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William (Pictou Landing, Nova Scotia) - Email Me
if done reasonably...
I was spanked as a child and I turned out ok.... no resentment.... no injuries.... in fact, I appreciate the fact I was disiplined that way.... it made me respect my parents, the rules that were in place, and other people's feelings, as well I never got into a great deal of trouble..... something that I see is lacking in most kids today... spare the rod and spoil the child isn't entirely a false concept.
In many cases the one's who cry out against spanking either don't have kids or can't control the one's they have.
And not all kids are the same.... some just don't clue in to anything less than a smack on the behind.... it sends home the message that you are serious.
I have seen kids laugh in their parents faces when they were telling them not to do something to the point the parent is just completely frustrated and nothing changes. Eventually the parent gives up and the kid is in control. That's when you need to draw the line and send the message that you will enforce the rules when necessary. Else kids will walk all over you. I always reference a mother lion... when her cubs get out of hand.... watch, and you will see her give them a smack. It let's them know there are consequences for their actions and they won't be pleasant... losing TV for a weekend after you skin your neighbor's cat just doesn't send a strong enough message.
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| The Law Of Balance | Jun 9th. at 11:25:35 am EDT
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Phoenix (Juneau, Florida) - Email Me
My child's teacher will never have the right to spank my child. That is entirely up to the parent. I was spanked as a child, and I think it made me the better for it. Just because you spank your children does not mean you don't love them.
But, you should never, ever spank them out of anger. Cool down beforehand and let them know it does not bring you any pleasure to do this.
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| Hmm... I Was Spanked As A Child... | Jun 9th. at 8:46:09 am EDT
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Leigh (Somewhere, Connecticut) - Email Me
And my Dad used a belt.
But this is not as bad as it sounds.
Imagine a very small full bathroom....
showercurtains, stuff on the vanity, barely enough room to turn around outside of the bathtub...
Dad once admitted that the reason he used a doubled up belt on me in there was because he literally couldn't get a decent arc going in that room, but if he had used his hand he was concerned that he would end up spanking too hard (his Dad apparently had a very heavy hand when it came to discipline) , but the belt still *sounded* like it should hurt and I generally didn't really know what pain was anyway....
(To give you an idea of the level of (or lack of) pain involved, I've had much worse sunburns. Heck, I've recieved woI've recieved worse 'Indian burns'. And I think I never had a problem sitting down after being spanked with the belt, not even a few seconds later, although there were a couple of times where he or my mom ended up hand-spanking and that actually hurt for a couple of minutes) .
He stopped spanking me for anything once I managed to talk him out of spanking me once (I was eight) . He figured if I could reason with him and explain that I knew I was wrong and why, then I was old enough not to be spanked anymore and we could move on to other forms of punishment.
*wry laugh*
There were times I wished he had stuck to the belt because having him clear my bedroom of books and leave me in there to stew was worse (to my mind) than the spanking I would have had instead.
Or loss of privs/bike/trip to the movies/whatever
Or being sent to bed without dinner.
Or being given math problems to do (I hated math) .
He even made me do our taxes once as punishment (he redid them later, but the point was to give me something I hated to do that would take forever....) .
The other thing that seperates correction from abuse is the verbal component. My dad always explained what I had done, what he was going to do (it made it worse really because there was anticipation...) and he never spanked me in anger.
There was the one time I knew I'd really gotten on his last nerve (and shredded it) and had endangered my own life in the process. When he said he was going to spank me, I told him there was no way I was going into the bathroom until he calmed down. and he made me sit in the kitchen for five minutes while he poured himself some iced coffee and took it into the living room, but that's the only time I was actually afraid of him. He did admit later that I was right: he had been furious and he wanted to know if I had ever been afraid of him before that., and I said no. Not really. Afraid of being punished, but not afraid of him (this was not long before I talked him out of spanking me...) .
But hey, what do I know? I grew up in the 70s as a Navy brat....
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| Well | Jun 9th. at 8:16:04 am EDT
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Cavalary (Bucharest, Romania) - Email Me
I certainly don't approve of spanking children, don't see any difference between it and abuse. Explain before they get in a position to do a certain bad thing. Then, if they do it anyway, get angry, but still keep it verbal. If they do it a 2nd time, then find a punishment that will make the kid understand exactly what they did (so beating up a child is ONLY appropriate when they beat up someone else without it being in self defense) .
As for this law being against Chrstians... Only applies if the child has also CHOSEN to be Christian (being baptized in infancy doesn't count, wasn't exactly in a position to choose!) , otherwise go apply your beliefs among yourselves. It's like saying the law against rape is an infrigement on the rights of the rapists...
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| Give Me A Break... | Jun 9th. at 3:19:15 am EDT
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Jeff Kincaid (Lynchburg, Virginia) - Email Me - Web
There is a far cry from a smack on the bottom to child abuse. I grew up with with spanking. I was never abused. I was often punished with removal of privaledges, time out, etc, but when I did not listen, or it was not feasible to give a time out, I got a whack on the butt. My brother as well. We both grew to be be law abiding, respectful young men who both went into law enforcement as careers. And no, I am not implying that police careers and spanking are related there, just that we were decent citizens.
I will gloat for a moment. I have four children. I am raising them myself as a single father. I have been praised by school officials, other parents, religious figures in our pagan community etc as a good father.
And yet....AND YET! I spanked my children...horror of horrors. They have all grown up making straight A's and gaining much praise as great kids. But when they were young, they often found that "hard heads make for soft tails" Many times this is the only thing that would give them pause to think. My 5 year old son (my youngest) merely has to be told that a spanking is imminent and he will frequently fall in line and not need any further action. I never have used any sort of "instrument". No belts, no switches, no paddles, etc. My paternal Grandfather used to say that hands are curves to fit little butts and that nothing else is needed. That is they way i was brought up and that is the way i brought up my children, and i suspect when it comes time, the way they will bring up their children.
As a Pagan since the early 80's and a Wiccan since the early 90's, I can tell you that my discipline techniques are definitely NOT biblical in nature. Somewhere people got the idea that being Pagan meant being Vegan*, not spanking their kids and being "one with the White Light Crystalline Cosmos". I know many Pagans who spank their kids and yet are not abusive. This is not Christian only club here.
As a retired Policeman, I can say without hesitation that some kids need that extra level of discipline and to not do so is ultimately as abusive as over applying it. I have had the unfortunate occasion to arrest many teens that, perhaps, if they had learned discippline when they were younger, would not have found themselves in my handcuffs.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes..."beating, whipping, etc" is excessive, but a pop on a small tail sometimes works the best of all methods.
Peace and Light
Jeff
* - No offense to Vegans, I mean only that it is not inherently a Pagan requirement
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| Hmm... | Jun 9th. at 2:01:55 am EDT
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Amtehuti (Queens, Florida) - Email Me
I remember being told about how two parents in this country were arrested for child abuse after beating their children with the Bible for any infraction, such as not doing the dishes correctly. They said God wanted them to do that. Umm, huh?
HItting a child is wrong. I agree that, with a child under three who can't be expected to understand verbal communication, a soft smack on the wrist for "no" is useful. But I say soft as in, no physical anything, no emotional abuse. Just let the child know that they shouldn't do that. Or do what my mother did when I crawled into things: pick the child up, turn them to another direction, and they'll just crawl away.
I do try to justify Christianity as a valid religious and spiritual institution, but this is one place where these adherents are crossing the line. Children are all emotionally different. I didn't realize that my father hitting me was wrong until, now in therapy, I tried to think about all the times when my father got mad and realized I actually had blacked out every single instance, especially all instances where my mother admitted later that my father had hit me. I know some children for which any blow given to them is never forgotten and then other children who are continuously hit and come out well adjusted. That's why this law is in place, because there's no way to judge where it goes too far. Who knows if that child is traumatized?
Anyways, this only ends physical abuse. Let's not forget that more children are affected by emotional abuse, and this will probably replace spanking for these "Christians". So replace a hit with "you're going to hell for not listening". Don't really know which is worse.
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