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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 7724
[Society]
Date Posted:
8/5/2003
11:09:17 am EDT
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Comments: 10
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Northern Ireland’s Police Masons Told To Own Up
Author: Dan McGinn Source: icnorthernireland
Title: POLICE MASONS TOLD TO OWN UP
Police officers who are Freemasons, members of the Catholic Knights of Columbanus or the Orange Order will have to disclose their involvement to their bosses under new measures announced today.
The PSNI confirmed that all officers will be required to notify Chief Constable Hugh Orde if they are members of Protestant, Catholic or other secret or cultural organizations.
The nationalist Ancient Order of Hibernians and Catholic Knights of Columbanus are included as well as the Grand Lodge of Freemasons of Ireland.
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Community Thoughts: There are 10 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Reorganization | Aug 5th. at 5:30:43 pm EDT |
by Rhymer (Ann Arbor, MI) - wc_xemail
The Police in N. Ireland (Ulster) are undergoing radical change. The emphasis is going from one of peacekeeping to community policing (There is a big difference-can explain later...) Unfortunately, as I write this, my ride to tonites Crosby Stills and Nash concert is pulling up, so I have to be brief.
It would appear though, that a big reason for this is to ensure that officers know that their primary obligation is to the community they serve, not their secret organizations.
I have ancestors and relatives on all sides, Catholic and Protestant Irish, Scottish and Norman English. The troubles all around rip me up.
Here's a link to the complete document...
http://www.irishnews.com/patton/patton4.html Find More info -- HERE
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| It May Be Important To Remember... | Aug 5th. at 5:29:15 pm EDT |
by pete3great (USA) - wc_xemail
...A huge scandal involving the police and the Pope's Knights of Malta (a lesser known Papist secrect society) recently broke in Italy... Well, not recently, it started in '82 with a "suicide, " when questions began to arise blame was put on a mythical Masonci group called P2. A group which wasn't Masonic at all, a front for, well, The Knights of Malta. The police helped cover the facts of the case up for, well until just a few weeks ago (remeber, this is Catholic country) when indictments against various members of The Knights of Malta began to be handed down (for conspiracy, murder, various banking scandals etc...)
Anyway, long story short, it may infact be a very good precaution.
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| Orange Order | Aug 5th. at 2:17:08 pm EDT |
by Titania (East Coast, USA) - wc_xemail
Seems to me that it is a good idea to disclose possible conflicts of interest. Interesting discussion on the swearing of oaths and such. Any Bible-believing Christian is prohibited from swearing oaths. Can't remember the vers. Intersting though, that judges and law enforcement officials swear oaths to up hold/enforce the law.
Also interesting how these societies go far back into history. They are many conflicts to consider. For instance, the Orange Order stems from William of Orange, from Holland. He was a conquerer--Scotland, Ireland, England. The Campbells and MacDonalds (jacobites) of the Scottish Highlands were divided in support for Willam of Orange or James II. Anybody who kows anything about Glencoe knows how this disagreemnt played out.
Given the recent history of Ireland's infighting (don't count the IRA out yet--I have heard there is still activity) , seems it is not to far from the realm of possibility for members of one secret society might harbor ill will toward members of other societies. History is doomed to repeat itself. Or are we doomed to repeat history?
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| Duh | Aug 5th. at 2:08:41 pm EDT |
by Raven (NJ) - wc_xemail
Might have helped if I'd actually put the link to the Police Federation in as intended.
So now you can check out their policies. Find More info -- HERE
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| UK | Aug 5th. at 2:05:15 pm EDT |
by Raven (NJ) - wc_xemail
Probably the reason for this not being pursued in the UK is that, aside from the Masons (already mentioned in my previous post) , there aren't too many groups that cause that kind of controversy. Most people in England don't give a monkey's what religion the local officers are, though they would probably care very much if those officers were members of the British National Front (from my point of view, a revolting lot) . The Police Federation and Police Complaints Boards already deal with complaints of bias and discrimination, and police officers in England typically don't belong to such organisations. Further, we're an irreligious bunch, or at least unlikely to belong to religious organisations outside of our places of worship. Most police officers I grew up around belong to the Police Federation, perhaps to a political party (though most people aren't actually party members, being a card-carrying member of the Lib-Dems isn't likely to cause uproar) , a local social club, and possibly help out with the local Scouts/Brownies. Queer police officers and those of ethnic minority backgrounds might be members of the national organisations for LGBT and black police officers (in the UK, "Black" as an ethnic descriptor is used by many non-African people, such as Indians) . Beyond that, there just aren't usually too many controversial groups that they're likely to belong to. Discovery that a police officer belongs to the BNP, for example, a few years ago resulted in a massive investigation of that officer to see if he'd shown bias in his work, as belonging to an organisation that encourages ethnic/religious intolerance is not looked kindly upon. I don't know the upshot of that investigation, but that's the basic scene.
It's all about justice not only being done, but being seen to be done.
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| It's Hard Not To React, Stone.... | Aug 5th. at 1:10:45 pm EDT |
by Kesair Ni Choll (not there) - wc_xemail
...and I do a lot of that, too.
I think the disclosure order is understandable, given my limited understanding of the climate. The dynamics go back further than any in our nation. We would likely have a hissy if such a thing were put in force here, but Northern Ireland is not here, and their history has been one of horrendously biased law enforcement, with the resultant mistrust.
I hope to read some comments from people in N Ireland, as I need more light shed on the subject.
Like you, Stone, I am very interested in what goes on on that island.
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| Kesair Ni Choll's Point | Aug 5th. at 12:49:41 pm EDT |
by Stone Bryson (Enid, Oklahoma) - wc_xemail
Whew.. this is why I need to calm down before I respond to a story... doesn't do me any good to be reactionary... :-)
Kesair is absolutely correct. The Orange Order IS a protestant organization. I read over that when I read the intitial article. My error. Please disregard that part of my earlier rant.
With that said, I still believe that there is a lack of balance when dealing with Northern Ireland. Unles I missed something (again!) , this is not being done in England, Scotland, or Wales. Why single out Northern Ireland? Is it because of the lack of proper representation of Northern Ireland's interests in British Parliment?
Nevertheless, I mispoke earlier. Need to continue to be more careful about that, especially when I am emotionally-vested interest. Thanks, Kesair, for reminding me of that. :-)
Stone
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| Wait A Sec, Stone.... | Aug 5th. at 12:23:34 pm EDT |
by Kesair Ni Choll (not there) - wc_xemail
...I think we need a reader from N Ireland to comment, (Not me, obviously) .
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Orange Order is definitely affiliated with Protestant/Anglican organizations, and consider themselves Loyalists. I read the order to be inclusive of ANY organization, and I believe (again, someone please correct me where necessary) this is due to the general mistrust of covert organizations in that country because of the historical lack of impartiality with regard to law enforcement.
In other words, how SHOULD they handle the situation, with mistrust as a given?
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| Masons And The Police | Aug 5th. at 12:20:05 pm EDT |
by Raven (NJ) - wc_xemail
In Britain, it has been the experience of many that being a Mason gets you ahead in the police force. My father was a police officer for 30 years there, and I was brought up around police officers, so this is something I've grown up hearing about. Furthermore, my maternal grandfather was a Mason, my maternal uncle has been a Mason for almost 40 years, and his son has been a Mason for quite a few years now.
Now, Masonry is not supposed to be about favouring your fellow Masons over others - it's supposed to be about a spiritual bond, about working for fairness in society, etc., but for many it's simply a social club and way of meeting "the right people", and the whole set-up gets abused.
In the UK many years ago there was a move to have all judges openly declare whether or not they were Masons, and for them to withdraw from Masonry, because of the fear that a person who belongs to a secret society and who has sworn oaths not to reveal precisely what goes on in the Lodge may be put in the position of finding these oaths in direct contravention of their oaths to uphold the law. Similarly, a move was made to have police officers do the same.
Having police officers in the family and Masons too, I can see both sides. Further, as my father is an Irish Catholic (though seriously lapsed) , though he was offered entry to the local Lodge, he refused point blank - partly because Catholics are not supposed to be Masons (see the whole conflicting oaths bit) and partly because he felt that an officer of the law should not have any ties to any secret society no matter how honourable its motives may be.
So the whole complex subject of the police and Masons isn't confined to NI, by any means. And, as someone of Irish Catholic and English Protestant stock, I say I wish peace, prosperity, and freedom to all. And may the Catholics of NI be one day regarded with less distrust by the Catholics of the Republic, even if they do feel that a united Ireland will play havoc with their economy.
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| Livid | Aug 5th. at 11:53:57 am EDT |
by Stone Bryson (Enid Oklahoma) - wc_xemail
OK... trying to remain clam... trying to remain calm....
I hear often about the openness and freedom that is expounded by our British cousins. I read articles from many publications from the U.K. where America is being bashed for many of its policies. Yet so many of us have forgotten about The Troubles in Northern Ireland. Why have we forgotten - it is no longer on the front page now that the I.R.A. has laid down its arms.
Those troubles are far from over, as evidenced in this article. The British claim freedom above what we Americans have, yet have occupied Northern Ireland for decades, and have had a tenious relationship with Ireland in general for centuries. Yes - Northern Ireland is occupied, as much as the West Bank and Gaza Strip are by Isrealis. And to demand that people (please note - the organizations being marked are not of an Anglican-Protestant nature) open up what secret societies they belong to is paramont to invasiveness. I suppose if you happen to be a Catholic in Northern Ireland, you will forever be a target.
My sympathy to all Catholics in Northern Ireland, and a sincere prayer that absolute religious freedom and true peace will someday come to your door. May Deity bless you all.
Stone
P.S. This is not an indictment of the British people, mind you, but of their government. While Britain has many great things to offer it, this article serves as a reminder that not all is well with freedom in the Isles.
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