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Page: Profile: Wren's Nest News Local
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Article: 18613
[Pagan]
Date Posted:
10/3/2007
9:59:06 am EDT
Wvox Stats
Views: 7,432
RSS: 16,395
Comments: 26
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Court Says Prisoner Not Entitled To Odinism Rituals
Author: Dana Beyerle Source: Tuscaloosa News (AL)
Title: COURT SAYS PRISONER NOT ENTITLED TO ODINISM RITUALS
A state prison inmate who wanted to build a fire in the prison to practice an ancient polytheistic Nordic religion was turned down by an appeals court Tuesday.
The court ruled that state prison officials did not violate Tony Lee Smith’s religious rights by refusing to allow him special worship space to practice Odinism. The prison had feared a backlash because the religion is said to incorporate white supremacist beliefs.
Smith, then an inmate at Limestone Correctional Facility, sued members of the prison system’s Religious Activities Review Committee, claiming that his constitutional rights and the federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act had been violated.
Smith, 38, said in the suit that state prison officials said he couldn’t have certain items connected with the pagan religion of Odinism, namely a pinewood fire in a small pit to observe certain rites, and use of a certain area of the prison for worship.
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Community Thoughts: There are 26 comments posted | Reverse Sort |
| Doesn't Matter The Crime, | Oct 5th. at 1:03:48 pm EDT
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Eran Rathan (Old Town, Maine) - Email Me
this fellow has broken the Nine Charges, and therefor gets what he deserves.
The Nine Charges
-To maintain candour and fidelity in love and devotion to the tried friend: though he strike me I will do him no scathe.
-Never to make wrongsome oath: for great and grim is the reward for the breaking of plighted troth.
-To deal not hardly with the humble and the lowly.
-To remember the respect that is due to great age.
-To suffer no evil to go unremedied and to fight against the enemies of Faith, Folk and Family: my foes I will fight in the field, nor will I stay to be burnt in my house.
-To succour the friendless but to put no faith in the pledged word of a stranger people.
-If I hear the fool's word of a drunken man I will strive not: for many a grief and the very death groweth from out such things.
-To give kind heed to dead men: straw dead, sea dead or sword dead.
-To abide by the enactments of lawful authority and to bear with courage the decrees of the Norns.
Eran Rathan
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| Would I Be Willing... | Oct 5th. at 10:39:49 am EDT
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Lokari (Plainfield, Illinois) - Email Me
Would I be willing to give up my Altar tools for any reason? Hmmm. No, I guess I wouldn't. Which is just one more of the many, many reasons I abide by the law, and thus stay out of prison. I've noticed that a rather huge portion of the American population is equally successful in obeying the law. It's not exactly difficult or onerous.
The convict in question chose not to be a law-abiding citizen, and so is imprisoned. He, and no one else, is responsible for the situation in which he finds himself. Actions have consequences. The consequence of illegal actions is that one's rights are curtailed. It would certainly be preferable if he could practice his religion freely in the way he wants with all the accoutrements he desires, but by committing his crime he gave up the right to make that determination for himself.
Prison officials are required to allow him his religious practices *within reason*. They felt his requests were unreasonable, and the judge agreed. I submit that the officials and the judge have far more facts about the specifics of the case at their disposal than we do, and thus are in a far better position to rule on the matter than the armchair experts rushing to his defense here.
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| So If I Were A Wiccan | Oct 5th. at 7:51:58 am EDT
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Naya (Memphis, Tennessee) - Email Me
I should be able to demand to have my athame in jail, too. (oh, the other non-Pagan prisoners will call that "a knife" and most guards will call it "a weapon.")
Or if I were a Rastafarian, I should be allowed weed while in jail.
Or if I were a Buddhist, I should demand a cherry tree that I can sit under and meditate.
How far is this nonsense going to go before someone realises that these people are in jail and your same rights don't apply to you here. Isn't it bad enough that we pay for every living expense that they have? (Personally, I think anyone who committed a willful, violent act against another person needs to be harvested for spare parts and organs, immediately.)
If you can't have your tools, thank the Goddess you still have your mind. You have all day to do nothing (don't I wish that I could say the same sometime) - so why not learn how to visualize? Haven't these people heard the phrase, "as above, so below?" If you can properly visualize your tools, then that is just as good as having them. If you can't, then why do you need these things in the first place?
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| So Odinism Requires A Small Fire | Oct 5th. at 2:45:15 am EDT
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
I was not aware of this requirement and cannot dispute it. If this is the case, he needs his fire. Without question this man needs to be allowed to have a place for his rituals - other religions have a place designated for them to be apart and have a ceremony - he should be allowed somewhere as well. This business of a pine wood fire - same kind of thing as needing tobacco, sage & sweetgrass in my opinion - I am sure that provision for burning a small fire (in a small cauldron if necessary) could be provided the same as a place for burning sage and sweetgrass - where the fire alarms won't be set off. My real question is simpler - who pays for bringing in the sage, sweetgrass, pine, cauldron or whatever is needed to burn in safely, or any other ritual tools? I don't want to be required to provide prayer mats, rosaries, crosses or any other religious items for anyone - my taxes are high enough already. If he, or a member of any religion, wants to have the fire or other altar supplies, he needs to provide them The prison needs to allow him time and space to use them but does not have to buy him anything.
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| So Sad. | Oct 5th. at 2:35:11 am EDT
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Eric Wolfborn (Jenkintown, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
He's a prisoner. To hell with what he wants.
What's the saying? if you can't do the time...
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| Wake Up! | Oct 5th. at 1:42:31 am EDT
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nasionnaich (Stanchfield, Minnesota) - Email Me
I hope I got your attention.
So many people have said that "No tools are needed for worship"... I wonder, does that include tobacco, sweetgrass and sage for Native American Rituals? How about whatever tools are normally used in Santeria? How about Wicca? Any of the other religions represented here on WitchVox? Would YOU be willing to give up your Altar tools for ANY reason?
Also, so many have said that prisoners do not have the right to worship as they choose -- or even as their chosen religion dictates. Fine...as long as you are also willing to give up YOUR right to worship as YOUR religion dictates as well. If you want to talk the talk, you better be ready to walk the walk.
Last, many here have said that he must have done something to deserve prison time... Are you aware that merely forgetting to renew your car's license tabs on time can get you up to two years in prison? Or that accidently writing a bad check can land you in prison as well? You do NOT have to kill someone to be sent to prison.....
I say that if the guy is truly sincere about his chosen religion, he should have been allowed his request concerning worship of that religion -- which was that he be allowed the use of a designated area for worship and a SMALL fire in that designated area. Odinism requires a pine-wood fire -- and candles are NOT made of pine wood. How about the Native Americans in prison substitute sage/sweetgrass with parsley -- since sage and sweetgrass are so hard to get most of the time, and sage does sort of look like pot. That seems fair to me.
Or is all that just too much to actually think about?
----nasionnaich
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| Alas, My Home State..... | Oct 4th. at 3:12:19 am EDT
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Katmandu (elba, Alabama) - Email Me
Ok, if the guy wasn't in prison, I'd say give him fire. But he's in prison (for whatever reason) and prisoners don't always get what they want. If they were taking away some books or something, I'd have an issue. But safety is the primary thing I see wrong with letting this guy have a fire. I don't really know so much about the Nordic traditions, but can't they adapt to situations at hand just like adherents to the other Trads have sometimes done? Afterall, when I was away in school, I couldn't have a bonfire on campus and was not acomodated in finding any local coven. I had to improvise. Sorry man, but yer in prizen nowww. Improvise.
BTW, did any of you out there realize that for someone to buy or sell sexual enhancement devices is illegal here? A dildo has to be sold discretely as a theraputic device. Like I said, alas, my home state. Leave it to Alabama. :)
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| There Are Good Points On Both Sides | Oct 4th. at 1:07:42 am EDT
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Artair (Asheville, Ohio) - Email Me
I have been a practicing Asatruar, and a prison guard, both. And unfortunately, many of the Odinists in prison are only that because it is a "white" religion and honors warriors. It is seen by some as a way to fight back against the Muslims, who are allowed many liberties because of their claim that they follow it. As with Odinists, many Muslims really do not follow their faith, only want to be given the opportunity to separate themselves from the "other race". There are groups from each side who would gladly never have contact with the other, ever. I can appreciate the wish to have a "need fire", however, these people have been put there for a failure to follow the laws of the land (I know there are exceptions) . While I don't see the problem with a small fire in an isolated area, I can understand the wish to NOT set a precedent. The prisoners I came in contact with would be thrilled with the opportunity to take this and blow it out of proportion. He should be given the space and a candle and be allowed to practice his faith. Even if he is the only one there, he does have the right to the same opportunities as Christians, Muslims and any other religion.
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| Read The Article Carefully Before You Comment | Oct 3rd. at 6:49:59 pm EDT
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Young Coyote (W. Hempstead, California) - Email Me
I originally posted a comment before, pretty much dismissing the "need fire" claim. After reading Will's comments and rereading the article, I'm not as convinced as before that the right decision was made.
Ok, walk with me a little on this. When you read the article, it states that Smith had two claims that were denied; a place to worship and a fire. Now, in no small part due to the way in which the author writes the article, it seems that the guy is asking for a fire in his cell. But in reality he was asking to have a fire pit in the designated place of worship.
Now this places the situation in a different perspective. Asking to have access to a large amount of fire in a cell would be too big of a security concern, that's a given. But to have a small bonfire outside in an area that probably has more guards watching? That seems far more reasonable to me.
The one thing that believed in my first comment and still do is that he should have a seperate place to worship. There aren't any real excuses for giving him that. With the fire, there is still some concern. Even if Will does not intended to do anything with the fire besides religious rites, if the fire is in a public enough space other criminals may try to get some of it for less than savory purposes. Even then the argument aganist the fire appears rather weak, especially if the fire would be in a seperate area.
I suspect the real reasoning Smith was denied was due to the prison system thinking it would be a rally point for white supramacists. They thought it would lead to major violence in the prisons. This rational is blatantly plastered on the article and I'm rather disappointed in myself for not picking it up earlier.
Going back to my first comment, while I noticed white supramacist nonsense, I was more interested in where that notion came from instead of the more important issue of why said notion even exists.
Consider how an outsider might view almost any Germanic-based or Norse-based religion; the adherents are almost always white, they worship blond hair blue eyed gods that are dressed up in battle regalia, and there is documentation of the Nazis using old Pagan themes/rituals/symbols. Suddenly the link doesn't seem so far fetched, does it? (We may know this isn't the case, but the rest of the US? We have elected officials that think this is a Christian Nation!)
To sum it all up:
The convict, Smith, wanted a seperate place to worship WHERE he could have a small bonfire
It was denied because prison officials were afraid for "security reasons"
These "security reasons" were that the religion is a "front" for white supramacists and that this bonfire could somehow trigger a surge of violence in the prison
Now, despite the ignorance of the appeal board's decision, there is a legit concern in stomping out events or symbols that could cause racial violence. The prison system has it's own society where people are broken down into groups based on race. With this tension already in place, officials don't want anything that could cause even further friction.
But this apparently not being the case, I'm changing my mind and saying that the officials came to a decision based on poor information. I still say that Smith is perfectly able to adapt to the situation without making any real compromise to his religious beliefs (A candle is still a fire, though not nearly as grand of one) , but the reasoning to deny him his worship space is flimsy.
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| Talking To A Wall? | Oct 3rd. at 5:54:00 pm EDT
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William (Durham, North Carolina) - Email Me
Once again, where are you all getting this "bonfire" thing from? The article itself says a "small fire," which I'll repeat, from personal experience, is not unprecedented in American prisons. Why is it suddenly a security risk for an "Odinist" or "Heathen" to have a SMALL fire when other prisoners are able to have them for non-religious activities like freakin barbecues? Even the amount of fire used through various large candles in Catholic rituals done in prisons are comparable to a small fire.
I'll also again point out that this isn't the same sort of issue as the wacko with the swords and the sauna; in this instance, someone who puts their faith in the verifiable historical practices of a native people wants access to something that can be verified as being a part of those historical practices, and it isn't a request that is anywhere near uncalled for judging by the standards of what other prisoners are capable of doing.
I also think it's funny that for such "open-minded Pagans," you fail to accept that others do not follow religions that place the only emphasis on personal belief and happen to have an orthopraxic component to them. Could he manage without anything at all? Sure, but by the values of the religion he prescribes to, what he manages is not going to be anywhere near as significant as what he COULD be doing were he given equal access to religious freedoms that other prisoners are allowed. So, and follow my logic here, if what he's requesting can be verified to be important to his religion, and if his request is not radical compared to the freedoms given to other prisoners (which it isn't) , than to say that he should "suck it up" and just "deal" in the face of other religions being adequately represented is tantamount to being AGAINST religious freedom, and isn't that a tenet that supposedly unites the "Pagan community"? Bravo.
Now, to clarify, I'm no reactionary, bleeding-heart liberal. If our prison system were not a capitalist industry and it only imprisoned those guilty of crimes I found adequate for incarceration, I'd be all for saying "to hel with all religious representation in prison." But this isn't the case, and so if particular religions are given liberty in prisons, then all religions should be given such liberty. I simply think that you all are writing this case off way too quickly without knowing the details of what lengths prisons go to to accomodate other religions and without knowing how exactly fire has been allowed in prisons in the past. You all also seem to apply your own orthodoxy and religious/spiritual/theological philosophies to someone who follows a religion whose theological philosophies are alien to your thinking. Such arguments as "well I think that people can be spiritual without any tools" does not make such a statement universally true for all religions and doesn't even come close to invalidating the legal claim of the case.
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| Need Fire | Oct 3rd. at 5:37:34 pm EDT
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Lokari (Plainfield, Illinois) - Email Me
If the purpose of the "need fire" consecration and burning offerings to the Gods, then certainly the candle that prison officials offered this convict should have sufficed. Fire is fire, whether it be from a candle or a pinewood pit.
How can a person say "Is it your contention that this personal view of yours is universally true of all religions?" and in the very next paragraph say "This case isn't like someone claiming Runes or swords are needed for their religion (they aren't) "? Does anyone else see the terribly flawed logic here?
Finally, this convict is in prison for a reason. From a quick Google search, it *appears* the reason is failure to pay child support. Not exactly a high crime, to be sure, but a crime nonetheless. Prison is about punishment, and that includes having certain of one's rights curtailed or eliminated.
Does this convict have a right to practice his religion? Yes, insofar as is deemed reasonable and safe. The prison officials deemed a fire-pit to be unreasonable, but were willing to compromise with a candle. The judges agreed with the prison officials. As do I - this convict doesn't have an automatic right to any accommodation he might see fit to demand. If free practice of his faith is so important to him, he perhaps should have considered the consequences before committing the crime that led to his imprisonment in the first place.
No. Sympathy. Whatsoever.
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| Hey Wait A Sec... | Oct 3rd. at 3:37:42 pm EDT
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Dennis Deal (Nazareth, Pennsylvania) - Email Me
My religion says I can't be locked up and must have Guinness on a regular basis...
So I guess that if I get locked up it had better be pub....
Though If he was truely practiced he could do the whole ritual in his head. Or he could color paper, ect. As another poster pointed out, its albout adapting to a circumstance...
I guess that means no Guiness for me.... So I just wont get locked up for breaking the law... Unless it is to protest an illegal war..... then then the Guiness had best be flowing.....
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| Ok | Oct 3rd. at 3:11:24 pm EDT
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Shortcake (Sullivan, Missouri) - Email Me
So, apperently he "needs" a big fire, and wasn't last month some other guy "needed" about 50 ritual items including a sword and a sauna?
having tools is a nice thing to have, but to be perfectly honest, as my personal opinion (which by the way, I'm entitled to have) is that you don't NEED tools. If your tools are what keeps your faith going in whatever deity or tradition, than apperently your belief wasn't as strong in your heart/mind ,than it is in your bank account
You cannot tell me that back in the Middle Ages, Pagans had all the stuff we have today. Its called improvising.
Next thing you're going to tell me is that some prisoner cannot practice his faith because he believes in pop culture magick, and can only practice it with the entire set of Harry potter books and every single episode of Dragon Ball Z.
Give me a break-a bonfire can be substituted with anything from lava rocks to a candle to a picture of a fire.
Get real.
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| A Candle Provides Fire | Oct 3rd. at 1:57:47 pm EDT
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Shadowbear (Hillsboro, Oregon) - Email Me
There is no need for "big fire" as opposed to the small fire of the candle flame. Even small offerings can be burnt in the candle flame and dropped into a fireproof bowl to finish burning. If he is sincere in his belief, diety will accept honest attempts to perform rituals.
The reason the norse religions are connected with white supremacy is that hitler was a follower of the norse gods. I have read that he liked to invoke Thor before making his major speeches so that he would exude power and charisma - neither of which were his inherent characteristics.
hitler's attitudes were not caused by the gods or by a belief in the gods, he was merely using them for his own ends - but the association remains.
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| Strange Article | Oct 3rd. at 1:28:11 pm EDT
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Young Coyote (W. Hempstead, California) - Email Me
Ok, right off the bat I'd have to say that there is no reason to give this guy a fire. It's a prison, they have the security of many different people to worry about, and this person is being punished for some crime he committed aganist society. (What it is, I would like to know but they don't elaborate) .
You know the whole "take personal responsibility" thing alot of us Pagans tout around? Well, if he is truly guilty of whatever crime it is and was sent to prison, he might have no one to blame but himself. I know, I know, "freedom of religion", but nothing is actually preventing him from worshipping. I understand people really like their tools and all but when you're behind bars you might have to make some sacrifices. Some Wiccans use a ceremonial sword often in their rituals, should they be allowed to have one while in prison?
When you're situation in life changes dramatically to the point where you can't do things exactly the way as before, you gotta adapt. Maybe he should have been allowed to worship in a particular space, but a bonfire? Please.
I found it really odd that they kept refering to Odinism as being linked to raciest groups (Only once did they use "sometimes associated with") . One must question where they got this information from. I wouldn't doubt that there are Pagan bigots, but to cast the religion in that light several times throughout the article? I'm not so sure about that.
I remember there being another article about a white female Pagan being threatened in her mostly black neighborhood. In the article, it briefly mentions that she has been accused of racism, it does not go into detail the who or why for that accusation.
I'm gonna throw this question out and if anyone thinks they might have an answer by all means throw me an email. Since most modern Pagans worship old European gods, especially Celtic, are people getting the wrong impression when they see our idols/statues/representation of the gods? Consider for a moment what an outsider would think if they saw us worshipping a blond hair blue eyed Thor or something similar. Anyone think there might be some truth there or am I looking too hard?
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